• ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    18
    arrow-down
    3
    ·
    2 个月前

    I suspect for some folks Stalin is bad because anyone else would have let the USSR capitulate to the wehrmacht invasion.

    • Unruffled [they/them]@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      2 个月前

      I suspect for some folks Stalin is bad because […]

      For most folks in the west, stalin is considered to be a brutal authoritarian dictator who made a deal with the nazis to carve up europe into spheres of influence. It should not be surprising to anyone that a lot of anarchists hold to that view, especially given stalin’s view of anarchists (see below).

      We are not the kind of people who, when the word “anarchism” is mentioned, turn away contemptuously and say with a supercilious wave of the hand: “Why waste time on that, it’s not worth talking about!” We think that such cheap “criticism” is undignified and useless.

      Nor are we the kind of people who console themselves with the thought that the Anarchists “have no masses behind them and, therefore, are not so dangerous.” It is not who has a larger or smaller “mass” following today, but the essence of the doctrine that matters. If the “doctrine” of the Anarchists expresses the truth, then it goes without saying that it will certainly hew a path for itself and will rally the masses around itself. If, however, it is unsound and built up on a false foundation, it will not last long and will remain suspended in mid-air. But the unsoundness of anarchism must be proved.

      Some people believe that Marxism and anarchism are based on the same principles and that the disagreements between them concern only tactics, so that, in the opinion of these people, it is quite impossible to draw a contrast between these two trends.

      This is a great mistake.

      We believe that the Anarchists are real enemies of Marxism. Accordingly, we also hold that a real struggle must be waged against real enemies. Therefore, it is necessary to examine the “doctrine” of the Anarchists from beginning to end and weigh it up thoroughly from all aspects.

      So if I may ask you a question - if marxism and anarchism are fundamentally enemies, as stalin himself argued, why would any anarchist support the modern day ML penchant for rehabilitating stalin’s reputation? It makes no sense. But sure, keep telling yourself anarchists hate stalin because of his virtues and not because of his other characteristics.

      • ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        4
        ·
        2 个月前

        keep telling yourself anarchists hate stalin because of his virtues and not because of his other characteristics.

        To be clear, those weren’t the folks I was referring to in my comment. But:

        if I may ask you a question - if marxism and anarchism are fundamentally enemies, as stalin himself argued, why would any anarchist support the modern day ML penchant for rehabilitating stalin’s reputation?

        Absolutely welcome to ask, and I’ll give it a shot nonetheless.

        I would ask the anarchist (and the modern day ML too) if they agree with this part of Stalin’s theory.

        I don’t, and would venture to say a modern day ML may also disagree with Stalin in this but even also have a penchant for his rehabilitation, for other reasons.

        More tangentally I think anarchism and marxism are not fundamentally enemies, (so, in disagreement with Stalin here), and would suggest they primarily diverge on the role a state plays in mediating conflicts of private and public interests.

        But if I were to try and find common ground with the bit from Stalin you’re citing, just for argument’s sake, it would be that this divergence is a fundamental relationship between the two, but I’d still maintain the differences are not incompatible or irreconcileable.

        But again, for the record, I was being more snarky about people who pivot from talking about how Hitler could’ve won to how Stalin could’ve lost.

      • Nemo's public admirer@lemmy.sdf.org
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        edit-2
        2 个月前

        For most folks in the west, stalin is considered to be a brutal authoritarian dictator who made a deal with the nazis to carve up europe into spheres of influence.

        Do they not know of how the western leaders enabled the Nazis to carve up Czechoslovakia and opposed USSR’s call for a united front against Nazis?

        The Molotov-Ribbentrop non-aggression pact, USSR happened after the Munich agreement where Britain, France and Italy came together to allow the Nazis and Poland to annex Czechoslovakia.

        And if you think there were no agreements before:
        1934 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German–Polish_declaration_of_non-aggression
        1935 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-German_Naval_Agreement
        1938 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement
        1939 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact

        And the next para from the text you quoted goes into the reasons, right? Searched with the text you shared and got this:

        The point is that Marxism and anarchism are built up on entirely different principles, in spite of the fact that both come into the arena of the struggle under the flag of socialism. The cornerstone of anarchism is the individual, whose emancipation, according to its tenets, is the principal condition for the emancipation of the masses, the collective body. According to the tenets of anarchism, the emancipation of the masses is impossible until the individual is emancipated. Accordingly, its slogan is: “Everything for the individual.” The cornerstone of Marxism, however, is the masses, whose emancipation, according to its tenets, is the principal condition for the emancipation of the individual. That is to say, according to the tenets of Marxism, the emancipation of the individual is impossible until the masses are emancipated. Accordingly, its slogan is: “Everything for the masses.”

        https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1906/12/x01.htm

        How do you see his critique? Do you think that anarchism cares less about wider social emancipation?
        I don’t have much experience with literature on Anarchism(or Marxism, but relatively better there), so would be cool to know your opinions on it

        • Unruffled [they/them]@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          edit-2
          2 个月前

          How do you see his critique? Do you think that anarchism cares less about wider social emancipation?

          I don’t think it’s accurate. And no, definitely not. It seems like he is describing libertarians more than anarchists imo, as mutual aid and community building are core principles of anarchism.

  • WatDabney@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    14
    arrow-down
    9
    ·
    2 个月前

    Funny that this is the exact same “logic” the libs use to try to defend running a pro-zionist, pro-corporate, pro-billionaire slimeball in the last US presidential election - “But Trump was worse!”

    • Amnesigenic@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      11
      arrow-down
      5
      ·
      2 个月前

      It’s not just a matter of the US being worse, this undermines the credibility of every single accusation regarding human rights that the US makes about any other country

  • vas@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    2
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    2 个月前

    This is disrespectful to common sense.

    The number of people KILLED in the mentioned Gulags is in the millions. The total number of killed by the regime is estimated as ~~20 million people. The number of people imprisoned in the US is just a bit north of a million.

    Having a mass murderer on a picture and trying to picture it as “wasn’t as bad as the US now” is distasteful. Have self-respect, spend effort and verify the numbers. Think critically about the picture you’re thinking to upvote.

    P.S. I’m not a US citizen or resident. In terms of freedoms, both the Soviet Union was terrible, and a lot of the events happening in the US right now are terrible.

  • fxdave@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    4
    arrow-down
    5
    ·
    2 个月前

    As a Hungarian, No thanks, we don’t want russian soldiers again in our country. Can’t we agree on socialism without involving Russia?

  • Rooskie91@discuss.online
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    8
    arrow-down
    11
    ·
    2 个月前

    Ah so everything was chill in the USSR then? Stalin didn’t have any secret police or totalitarian access to power?

    • mistermodal@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      14
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      2 个月前

      No, he was a competent leader. Why on earth wouldn’t he have counterintelligence operations against the CIA and others? Do you remember what they did to their own citizens during the war “just in case we need to do it to the Soviets and not just black people 😉”. Are you advocating defenselessness against the torture regime of the USA?

  • scathliath@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    5
    arrow-down
    8
    ·
    2 个月前

    Frankly not a tankie or a capitalist, but I’m pretty sure Stalin was shitty for other reasons. Admirable reasons at time as in the case of being a cold-mother fucker enough to gank his own son for the revolution. But reasons, surely.

  • planish@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    3
    arrow-down
    7
    ·
    2 个月前

    I mean this doesn’t prove Stalin not bad.

    Are these stats including dead people or just prisoners? I feel like Stalin may have been fielding a murder-forward build.