- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- world@lemmy.world
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Young men
There’s no need to feel down
I said young me- wait where is everyone going?
Looks like Ukrainians are done dying for “western values”.
The war has gone on for 3+ years, and it still has two participant nations, with “Ukraine’s allies and friends standing with it” nowhere in sight. No western soldiers dying, but Ukrainian soldiers dying, - it’s a demonstration of values too.
Other than that any real war treats fit men as a resource. Such a flight will happen in any country at war with conscription, when its population knows what war is.
A functional military doesn’t do superman shit, it doesn’t have irreplaceable heroes and it doesn’t use smarts. It’s a pipeline. Nobody wants to be fed to it if they can avoid that.
Most of all - those Europeans cheering how they “stand with Ukraine”. But they haven’t been taught to keep their fucking mouth shut about standing with anyone if they are writing comments and that someone is under bombs.
So I thought before 2020 that western values are “if we have the same idea of good, we die for you, you die for us”, even if I wasn’t sure if anyone really shares that, I thought the western public kinda remembers something of that.
Then war in Artsakh happened, and I understood all about western values, western ability to keep their word they chose to give, western honor and what will happen with all that. Just all thieves and cowards, who seem civilized by inertia from robbing half the world. The economic and demographic dynamics show that this won’t happen again.
Well, not only western, but in general, it turned out that for most Russians alliances matter nothing if the other side is some people who “disrespect them” - how nice, yes, so if I don’t like how a Russian talks, I have the right to not pay them for work or deny them, say, a floating jacket when they are drowning … ah, oops, it’s different, “too much honor for some kebab makers” - that was said by a person for all supposedly good in Russia, against Putin and such, about alliance obligations. These people don’t even understand that fulfilling obligations and being decent people is all about their own honor, and if something is “too much honor” for someone, you shouldn’t give your word.
So - for Ukrainians it was naturally easier to believe in some “western values” because the west was seemingly helping them, and saying many nice things.
But I think now they are done with that.
We’ll have a world where all the politics will function after Conrad von Wallenstein’s army, because to restore understanding of honor you should first impress with all the weight upon humanity, in practice and thoroughly, what role honor fulfills.
No model is absolutely precise, and no pyramid of modelling to avoid full cost will rid you of need for real feedback. That works for everything in history.
I expect there’s going to be a severe backlash against the west in Ukraine when the war is over and they realize they’ve just been cynically used as cannon fodder to right Russia.
There already is, it seems. Just people bombing them are not the west.
But yes, in the end result what Putin’s propaganda voices were saying turns out to be correct. Not in case of Ukraine during the war (that’s war propaganda, it’s always crazy), but before it.
I have a pet conspiracy theory, if you wish:
Either they are this inept or they don’t need Ukraine as an equal ally, and see it being weakened as a good outcome. I don’t think a group of nations still making up the world’s economic and technological leadership can be this inept. So Ukraine is seen as an enemy best weakened.
They can’t expect Ukraine to attack them, that would be crazy. Or to ally with their adversaries, it doesn’t have many options. Meaning there’s something brewing with the western nations preparing to piss off a loosely defined group of nations, including Ukraine. Piss off so significantly that weakening it is a good idea.
So the conspiracy theory would be that the west intends to start “WW3: Nuclear drone boogaloo” soon enough. Because their dictatorial, aggressive and in general very bad enemies are not hurrying with this, and are doing just fine winning economically. And the war must start and result in the victory of those most deserving, that is, those with the best global military logistics and the biggest nuclear arsenals.
I don’t think it’s just Ukraine actually. Here’s my take on the whole thing https://dialecticaldispatches.substack.com/p/the-us-pivot-to-asia-and-europes
That’s not bad, but might ignore the factors of madness and despair and plain arrogance. Sort of like WWII shouldn’t have started, and shouldn’t have prolonged once it started, and then there were plenty of points where it made sense to stop for all involved.
For sure, these things always take on a life of their own and they’re impossible to control.
Why die for western values when you can just cross the border and have them? Why they didn’t cross the border to Belarus?
Actually, a fun fact is that by 2023 more Ukrainians left to Russia than any other country. https://unric.org/en/ukraine-over-6-million-refugees-spread-across-europe/
You greatly misinterpreted the data you’ve shown there though?
in what way?
Were they children being kidnapped by Russia for “re-education”? If so, seems pretty on-point
🤡
Do you really believe fewer than 200 children placed in foster care, most of whom have returned home now that the frontline has moved, have any significance on mass migration statistics?
Fewer than 200?
From the first line of the wikipedia entry:
During the Russo-Ukrainian War,[3] Russia has forcibly transferred almost 20,000 Ukrainian children to areas under its control, assigned them Russian citizenship, forcibly adopted them into Russian families, and created obstacles for their reunification with their parents and homeland.[7][8] The United Nations has stated that these deportations constitute war crimes.[8][9] The International Criminal Court (ICC) has issued arrest warrants for President of Russia Vladimir Putin[10] (who has explicitly supported the forced adoptions, including by enacting legislation to facilitate them)[1] and Children’s Rights Commissioner Maria Lvova-Belova for their alleged involvement.[10]
Sure, you can find Ukrainian media saying almost all children have been abducted, abused and genocided by Russia but they’ve been saying they’re gonna collapse at the hand of a single pilot from week one so I’m gonna need actual evidence.
After years of accusations, Ukraine has produced a list of some 500 children, most of whom were with family in other parts of Europe.
Lol wikipedia is Ukrainian media? Didn’t the Kremlin themselves confirm the numbers?
So what happens when Ukraine loses? Are we at war with Russia then?
In such a hypothetical scenario Ukraine becomes part of Russia, and nothing really changes for the rest of the world. Nobody has any obligations to rescue Ukraine. Sure, we can start a war to reclaim Ukraine’s territory, but we’re not going to. Likewise, Putin won’t attack Europe, because Russia can’t afford such a large-scale conflict. Especially one that would likely end with their loss.
Even when Russia gains all of the territory it ever needed to liberate, Ukraine will continue nazification and terrorism after ceasefire, because their western handlers are so desperate to distract from their worthlessness.
Ha. I’m not so sure they would lose.
They’re literally fighting to the last soldier; and the soldiers are either kidnapped into fighting for Ukraine, or fleeing (to Russia more than anywhere else). With or without US military aid, which has been greatly reduced, that’s not a winning combination.
We haven’t even started with the Baltics, baby-cakes
Nobody knows, it’s a surprise!
Moldova next because it’s not in NATO. Next Romania with Serbia and Hungary as ally. After that all old Yugoslavia. That can be like 2030 agenda. Many would say that Poland is next but they have big border with Russia, USA military bases and no value other than terrain and Russia have no problem with terrain. It’s easier and more profitable to go just south and gain access to the Mediterranean Sea. That opens up border with Africa with Middle East and cuts down Europe from south Oil and Gas sources.
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These people seriously think Russia is some prolific yet bumbling Empire, and NATO is the only benevolent force standing in the way of global russification. No evidence or basis in reality, just vibes. I really wish I had whatever they’re smoking.
How many have left the USA?
