Since October 7, more than 3,257 children have been reported killed, including at least 3,195 in Gaza, 33 in the West Bank, and 29 in Israel, according to the Ministries of Health in Gaza and Israel respectively. The number of children reported killed in just three weeks in Gaza is more than the number killed in armed conflict globally – across more than 20 countries – over the course of a whole year, for the last three years.
Yet some people still claim Israel is the victim! When the truth is that Israel is a terrorist state.
The ol’ “you shot me in the foot so I burnt down your neighborhood and killed your entire extended family” defense. Unbeatable in the court of law.
I agree, except I think Israel is the one to both start and end this.
I burnt down your house and killed your family, but because you shot me in the foot, I’ll burn down your neighborhood and kill your entire extended family.Don’t forget how they’ll cry to all their friends and relatives that they were the victims all along.
That one doesn’t hold up as well in court though…
there’s a history of violence on both sides since the post-ww2 era. no one really has time or any real inclination to attend court
Ah the ol’ “history of violence and I’ve got more killing to do, so ain’t no time for court” defense. An interesting strategy. Suppose it depends on the judge.
it’s got more to do with the accused/accuser - neither are going to visit a courtroom (ie: the hague).
come on man, you’re not even following the format of the joke here.
People see will see these numbers and still argue “they are showing restraint, if Israel was really evil they would just carpet bomb them all.” Like what the fuck is this then?
This excuse of “how is it genocide if there are still Palestinians alive? huh?” is such bullshit. Yes, let’s wait for Israel to kill the very last Palestinian before we can bring out our memorials and cry over the genocide.
“The Nazis are killing Jews? Why would they put them on train cars then and have them work? Wouldn’t they just shoot them or bomb them right there? I don’t think it’s really as big a deal as it seems.” -American in 1940
Ministries of Health in Gaza is Operated by Hamas, so it would not be outlandish to say these numbers are being inflated in order to push public opinion and international support
“Hamas has now been in charge of Gaza for 16 years. It has squeezed the life out of honesty and probity. Any health official stepping out of line and not giving the death tolls that Hamas wants reported to journalists risks serious consequences. I’m not denying there are civilians being killed. At all, including many children. That’s verifiable. What is not verifiable are the numbers that emerge throughout the day from Gaza of new death tolls — 700 killed in the last 24 hours, 500 killed in the Ahli hospital car park blast, 5,000 killed since October 8. Hamas has a clear propaganda incentive to inflate civilian casualties as much as possible. There was a time when the figures from the ministry could be relied upon. The doctors and administrators knew what they were doing.”
This is an area of credibility that is still up in the air with reliable sources claiming that it is both reliable and unreliable numbers that are being published. However none of it though dismisses the fact that innocents are dying from Israel’s War with Hamas, innocents that contain children
Historically they stand up to even Israels secondary verification. From the AP:
“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.”
In previous wars, the ministry’s counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel’s tallies.Historically is not the same as current: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/10/24/hamas-israel-death-toll-health-ministry-trustworthy-reuters/
“Hamas has now been in charge of Gaza for 16 years. It has squeezed the life out of honesty and probity. Any health official stepping out of line and not giving the death tolls that Hamas wants reported to journalists risks serious consequences. I’m not denying there are civilians being killed. At all, including many children. That’s verifiable. What is not verifiable are the numbers that emerge throughout the day from Gaza of new death tolls — 700 killed in the last 24 hours, 500 killed in the Ahli hospital car park blast, 5,000 killed since October 8. Hamas has a clear propaganda incentive to inflate civilian casualties as much as possible. There was a time when the figures from the ministry could be relied upon. The doctors and administrators knew what they were doing.”
It’s a bit more complicated than that no?
No, it’s not complicated at all actually.
If you find it not complicated then you are either uneducated and not impartial
I hope for the former and that you will educate yourself (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_conflict)
Apartheid is not complicated. Sorry if that’s hard for you to understand.
Article 34 of the 1949 Geneva Convention IV states that the taking of hostages is prohibited
I’m sorry that you are so clouded by hate
Israel is an apartheid state. Apartheid is the root cause of the entire conflict. It’s also illegal under international law. This isn’t hard.
I agree. But Israel’s apartheid actions are not just cause to enact rocket strikes, torture, suicide attacks, mass taking of hostages, mass attacks on innocents, or the beheading of children
It is hard, because there is no one side that has so far not committed a war crime
It’s becoming quite simple…
Only if you are intellectually lazy and morally stupid.
no victims, right. https://lemmy.world/post/7539955
Obviously there are individual victims, but as a nation Israel is mostly responsible as those who have all the power.
Having power = the ones responsible?
They have no power in Gaza. They haven’t had any for the last 15 years. The ones in control of Gaza and its population id Hamas, and the ones who doesn’t take care of poor Palestinians is Hamas. And the ones who get foreign aid and uses it for rockets instead of infrastructure is Hamas.
Power != Responsibility. Life isn’t spiderman.
Israel has all the power over Gaza. They control who or what goes in and out. The way Palestinians have been treated I’m not surprised at all that they have ended up with extremist leaders.
They control everything in and out huh… Does that include the rockets and anti-tank ammunition Hamas has?
Give me a break. They had a free hand running their own region for over a decade, and that’s what came out of it. Lots of military means - zero safe zones for civilians.
They are using way superior power only to oppress, that’s why they have more responsibility.
They use their power only when needed, which is very frequently given that their neighbors advocate for civilians giving away their lives to serve a religious ideology, meaning they’re under a constant threat on their safety.
Yes, they’re more powerful. But no, they don’t only oppress using it. If they did, you’d have what china did to their muslim minority. The use of power is large, but not disproportionate to their level of security risk.
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No one is launching the nukes, because, well…first that’s not how nuclear deterrence works, like, at all. And second, most of the people with nukes are in favor of and support Israel. You are so off base in your comprehension of global geopolitics.
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It’s not interesting actually, it seems to be what is happening now and it’s sickening.
Westerner are immoral The US is in command 🏞️🌅🇵🇸🔜🔏
Well they are the victims of a terror attack by the Hamas and have a right to defend themselves also not by any means of course…this conflict has two participants who are equally involved in this conflict, your point of view seems quite one sided to me.
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Israel is the terrorist.
No, I think once your people have been genocided you automatically pass all ethics checks.
This is how you ensure there’s another generation of radicalized individuals to have to combat.
But mentioning it makes you an antisemite, the ADL told me so!
Fun fact, Palestinians are semites. All Arabs are
They speak a semitic language, and that’s not what anyone’s talking about when they refer to anti-Semitism
While the phenomenon of blaming valid criticism as antisemitism exists, the counter claim which you made is now completely weaponised.
In this entire thread, you’re the only person that mentioned antisemitism and the vast majority of the comments are very one sided in criticising Israel.
First of all, sarcasm bro
Second, the ADL specifically is notorious for including any anti-zionist action as an antisemitic incident, even when carried out by other Jews.
First of all, sarcasm bro
Sorry mate, so many layers and seriously made wild claims that it’s becoming really hard to detect…
“Not only is the child murder bad! It’s the worst it’s been since like 2019.” -the news.
I can just pray that war stops asap, cant see innocents dying…
Let’s pray for hamas immediate surrender and release of the hostages. EDIT: looks like the tankies are backing hamas.
Let’s hope Hamas releases the hostages and the state with one of the strongest military in the world backed by the most powerful nation in the world stop bombing kids that they have crammed into a tiny strip of land, and start working only actually solving the root of problem. Hamas’ greatest recruiter and radicaliser is Israel. The only side with the power to stop these atrocities from continuing for decades to come is Israel.
They are not bombing kids. they are bombing terrorists.
EDIT: TinyPizza, I am not affected by hamas propaganda so I’m not confused, I don’t need to reorient to align with hamas.
Sir. You might be lost. Could you please look at the title of the post and reorient yourself to your surroundings.
What a trash can of a heart you must have to call literal children for terrorists just because they were born on the wrong side of a border.
It’s possible to be against Hamas’ terrorist attacks and still have sympathy with the innocent civilians in Palestine you know?
I don’t conflate having sympathy with accusing israel of bombing children. They didn’t consider the children as targets they were collateral damage. But I can see how you feel they actually aimed for the children.
That didn’t happen.
And if it did, it wasn’t that bad.
And if it was, that’s not a big deal.
And if it is, that’s not my fault.
And if it was, I didn’t mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.They didn’t consider the children as targets they were collateral damage.
As if the Israel military aren’t aware and don’t care about the “collateral” damage. One atrocity doesn’t excuse another.
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Sure thing, that doesn’t justify bombing civilians
I’m sure that Israel wants to hear about the viable alternatives no one is able to come up with so far. Let’s hear it.
After Hamas’ actions on the 7th I don’t see Israel stepping back. Their previous attempts at curtailing Hamas were already under criticism for not going far enough, and that was before the largest attack in decades had occurred
A couple of videos I watched on the subject seem to clearly point at Israel being the aggressor. The existence of Hamas was directly caused by persistent aggression from the Isreali government.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv1SpwwJEW8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWvSxSEZ4WMFantastic Videos, and yes Israel has given more than enough cause for Palestinians to act against them. But none of them excuse the crimes that Hamas have committed both on Oct 7th and in the past as well
Idk, I think decades of serious suffering, oppression, and the looming threat of the annihilation of your people seems like just about as much justification as one could have. I feel like, to say otherwise is to tell the palestinians to shut up and take their genocide with a smile. Peace negotiations have and will get them nowhere, violence, as extreme as they can muster, is the only option they have left. Yet, it pales in comparison to what can be done back to them, and without intervention the state of palestine and its people will cease to be.
Hamas aren’t doing it for the Palestinian people, they aren’t the Palestinian liberators. Just tools to be used by aggressive Islamic nations like Iran to attack a Jewish state. Doesn’t mean Palestinians aren’t going Hamas in order to do such a thing but they then just become pawns in a conflict between two very right wing, authoritarian, theocratic sides.
yes genocide as a response to genocide is the only solution /s
Is that really how you read my comment, and the situation? Hamas couldn’t genocide shit, even if they wanted to. These countries, these people, are not on even ground. And if Hamas didn’t do something extreme, we wouldn’t be talking about it, no one would give a shit, and they’d go quietly into the history books like so many before them.
You are not a psychic, you can make any prediction you want but it will never achieve clairvoyance
Mass violence is NEVER a counter to mass violence
Was nothing learned from the non-violence movements?
Quietly into the history books, as the world’s first country of Palestine
The actual looming threat that Hamas attacked over was the PA enacting a two-state solution with Israel.
Hamas doesn’t care about Palestinians at all
Fuck off.
Netanyahu said “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. 1 Samuel 15:3 ‘Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass’," .
You keep quacking like a nazi duck man…
You’re dumb as fuck lol
He says, unironically, on an article about 3000 dead children. Gross.
How many children do you think the critics will accept as enough? Or does that number not matter because they aren’t Israeli children?Nope, doesn’t matter. Palestine = Hamas = bad, that’s what the news say.
Israel killed like 20 times more civilians than Hamas and nobody batted an eye for decades.
Its a war I don’t know what the fuck you want
Literally the post we are on:
The number of children reported killed in just three weeks in Gaza is more than the number killed in armed conflict globally – across more than 20 countries – over the course of a whole year, for the last three years.
I want them to stop the wholesale slaughter of kids. This barbarism is not how a “just” war is conducted, and especially not a “defensive” one.
Stop reposting obvious Hamas lies.
To repeat what I said to your statement higher up:
A 100 year old charity whose goal is to save children from war isa terrorist groupHamas? Are you ok?
what the fuck you want
It’s weird how they still class things as war crimes, despite everything being totally okay as you say.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
The killing of kids is terrible
Israel’s goal of Hamas’ destruction makes it unavoidable
Without a change in Gaza further attacks from Hamas are unavoidable
And unless there is a government in Israel that stops the settlement and incursions of Radical Israelis in the west bank there will be no peace
There is no true and just change here at this time that fixes everything
Israel’s goal of Hamas’ destruction makes it unavoidable
“We did nothing to prevent the reckless deaths of twenty times the number of innocents and we’re all out of ideas”
He says, unironically,
on an article aboutas he justifies 3000 dead children. Gross.He says, unironically as he justifies the beheading of children. Gross. /s
See how that sounds? Stop misappropriating people’s character
Yeah, wheres the evidence of that? I know exactly just how it sounds. It sounds like a poor excuse for the murder 0f 3000 children. You do you though. I don’t go around trying to soften mass child murder.
Softening the murder of children with the murder of other children would be an illogical excuse
The evidence of such you know cannot be posted here
I only leave this https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/hamas-babies-beheading-kfaz-aza-b2427627.html
Legit the most sane person I saw on this platform.
Congrats on not being brainwashed.
Jesus tap dancing Christ…
To make it perfectly clear - the fact that children are dying is reprehensible and it should be stopped. Even if one innocent child died, from both sides, it’s one too many.
That being said, this is a very good example of propaganda by partial information and numbers manipulations.
The UN report in question identifies anyone under the age of 18 as a child. The Al-Qassam brigades recruit teens from the age of 16 to active combative roles (some reports suggest an even younger age).
It’s impossible to know how many of these 3,257 children are actually children and how many are armed teens, and the UN report references that. The propaganda completely ignores this part and reframes this information as if more than 3,000 young and innocent children were slain.
A worldwide charity that’s existed for 100 years, whose exclusive mission is trying to save children from war, is a very good example of propaganda? Please explain this, because you say that one is too many but then you say “don’t fall for this guys, it’s not nearly that many.”
Are you saying it’s ok to murder minors because they’re armed? Are you saying that’s why these minors were murdered? Do you have proof of this? Because your statements seem to be the ones which are unfounded and sound a lot like propaganda to excuse the murder of thousands of children.A common tactic by propagandists is to call inconvenient information propaganda. It’s like how fascists tend to blame their opponents for engaging in behavior that only the fascists are actually engaging in.
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Eh, I generally feel like anything aimed at people under 18 in the context of an air bombardment is still not a justifiable murder. I’m with ya, Hamas fucked up. What they did is indefensible, but also taking a life from someone who hasn’t even had the opportunity to understand the world and the chance to make those bigger decisions from a grown place yet is very wrong to me.
If it’s a battle, back and forth, firing guns, kill or be killed, I guess that’s just how it shakes out. I don’t expect someone to just let themselves be shot there by a minor (whether they should be there is another story, but ok). But If you just have suspicions this kid is an enemy, or you see them with a gun, or hell you even have solid evidence that kid has been recruited as a child soldier, I don’t think you get to judge them with death by bomb outside the moment. That’s part of what’s so difficult in discussing or defining what constitutes a child soldier or a legitimate target. These kids already got robbed of so much in their ability to live a normal childhood. In America countless black kids were cast as “super predators” in the 90’s in much the same way. I respect where your coming from and don’t doubt your sincerity but believe we just have a difference of opinion on this matter.
According to this NPR article, the age range both you and the commenter are describing (15-19) represents 10.6% of the male population. The combined totals below them = 40.8% of the population. So what, a fifth = 639 of them in that age range died. Then what percentages of those deaths are militants? Say 50% So 320? Out of 3,195?
Obviously you can’t account for distribution and other factors without further info, but still I think that it’s more right than it is wrong then by any stretch of the imagination. You’ve stated similar stuff up the thread but I just don’t feel like to cast this as propaganda by numbers manipulation or partial information is a statement that can be taken at face value, given that the lack of numbers and information are a byproduct of intentional suppression by the power committing the offensive.
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A totally fair point. You spoil us all with your reasonable, genial demeanor and commitment to calling out bias.
Just one inaccuracy - there were no settlers in Gaza for nearly 20 years.
That’s not inaccurate. He said Palestine. That’s more than just Gaza, it’s the West Bank+ as well. And they have been under absolutely relentless attacks (and murders) by settlers, especially since the 7th. Even though they are divided, they are one people. It’s not like those kids in Gaza don’t know that.
I was referring to “It’s small wonder that people support Hamas and children join the only force that seems to be fighting for them”.
There’s little love (and that’s a huge understatement) between Hamas and the PLO and children in the west bank rarely join Hamas.
Hamas is a terrorist group.
Israel isn’t an equivalent. Its a fully fledged nation state with sophisticated military and intelligence agency. Israel’s behaviour should be measured based on how a nation state should act. Not a terrorist group.
If you think Israel is justified in killing children because Hama’s did. Your arguing Israel is a terrorist state, just one your sympathetic to.
I don’t think we should compare Israel to the standards we hold for terrorists. Because we don’t have any standards for terrorists. Additionally Israel’s capability for killing far exceeds what Hamad can achieve.
All the deaths due to the recent Hamas attack is the best Hamas can do. How many people could Israel kill, probably all 2 million in the Gaza strip.
Extremist Christians and extremist Zionists have wanted this for a long time. Only tempered by the west’s intolerance for mass killing. Since the Hamas attack the US and UK have both morally approved of moving into to Gaza.
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A worldwide charity that’s existed for 100 years, whose exclusive mission is trying to save children from war, is a very good example of propaganda
Absolutely, 100%. Human rights organisations are not unbiased news outlets - they have agendas and objectives. Their objectives are commendable ones, and the work they do is invaluable, but they still utilise propaganda as a means to an end. As good and important as this end is, their reports should be received with the same amount of caution and critical thinking as any report coming from anyone with an objective in this.
you say that one is too many but then you say “don’t fall for this guys, it’s not nearly that many
That’s just a straw man. I never suggested that it’s not that many. It can be 3,257 and it could be 0. I just pointed out the information manipulation.
Are you saying it’s ok to murder minors because they’re armed
It’s never ok, but unfortunately this is war and war is shit. An ak47 in the hands of a 12 years old can kill just as well as one in the hands of a 20 years old.
Another point for you to consider is that traditionally, in the Philippines, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, Cambodia, many regions of Africa and essentially wherever there were children-soldiers, the ones that indoctrinated them, trained them and placed firearms in their hands were the ones who were blamed for their deaths.
You seem to hold Israel as the only one accountable for it.
So could you clarify your point:
- “kill every kid that’s holding a gun, no matter the age”, or
- kill kids between 16-18 as long as they hold a gun I am really curious.
And while at it, could you please clarify the morality of killing kids in their beds by bombing the houses they are living in? Or we should just preemptively kill any kid as they might turn into future terrorists.
Oh and by the way, I am pretty sure the Palestinian population are viewing the Israelian as terrorists and Hamas as liberators the same way you see Palestinians and IDF. So the terrorist designation all depends on the point of view and who’s in charge.
Not defending Hamas, giving you just some food for thought maybe and if you disagree with this statement, could you provide me a definition of a terrorist and try to apply it through the eye of the regular Gazan.
I really couldn’t say in this case, and I’m very happy that I’m not the one that has to make this choice . Quite a few soldiers in conflict areas lost their lives because they couldn’t either.
And while at it, could you please clarify the morality of killing kids in their beds by bombing the houses they are living in?
Read my first sentence in the original message.
So the terrorist designation all depends on the point of view and who’s in charge
There’s point of view and there is the international law. The legal terms is that the IDF is a country’s military and as such it is expected to uphold international treaties, it is held to high standards and it receives a lot scrutiny when it goes out of line or makes mistakes. Hamas is a terror organisation and therefore none of this applies to it, but also killing its operatives is not considered murder or a war crime.
If you’re asking for my personal opinion - it’s about intent. Organisations that have the clear intentions to kill and hurt as many civilians as possible are clearly terrorist organisations. Internationally recognised organisations that do not and try to minimise civilians casualties are not. Everything in between is a case by case gray area.
I can’t attest to what the average person in Gaza thinks, but I reckon after 20 years of Hamas rule a lot of the people are already indoctrinated and their world view, specifically regarding Jewish people, is at least somewhat detached from reality. This is clearly reflected in the pro Palestinian Arabic social media profiles.
The terrorist designation of a group is specific to the countries calling that group a terrorist group. Most nations of the world actually do not designate Hamas as a terror group. There is still a responsibility for a state military to adhere to international laws of conflict when engaging a non-state group.
Making even Palestinian children look like potential terrorists is the real propaganda here. Easier to kill a child if you think they could be a soldier. You’re not able to confirm this nor can anyone, but you are prepared to go on this “hunch”, make children of Gaza less like children and more like military so that killing them is easier to stomach.
The only way to deescalate is to give Palestinians justice. There is no benefit to Israel from carpet bombing Gaza
They are the ones dropping the bombs on them in a city they surrounded with walls? When should they be held to account for these virtual murders? This is an offensive action, not a defensive one. These kids aren’t coming at soldiers in waves, they’re being crushed under rubble from bombs dropping on the places they are attempting to find safety. Whole families dying like that.
You need to get out of whatever echo chamber you’re in.
Sorry, the only echos I hear is the horrified screams of children getting bombs dropped on them as they starve and die of thirst in Gaza. Maybe help them get out?
What do you mean? You can watch it happening, it’s not a secret. There aren’t attacks on Israel right now, they aren’t being invaded, Gazans are pinned in a box being slaughtered in one of the densest cities in the world.
It’s impossible to know how many of these 3,257 children are actually children and how many are armed teens,
And if they were armed teens, should we kill them? The ministry of health published the numbers. You can choose whatever age you deem acceptable for the Qassam Brigades and do some math to get the “real” number of children victims, if you like.
It’s impossible to know how many of these 3,257 children are actually children and how many are armed teens,
All of them are fucking children. Everyone under 18 is a child. Stop this bullshit.
It’s disingenuous to suggest however there isn’t a difference between civilians and fighters. Either way though, yeah, they’re all children. I don’t know if it’s more horrifying for a child soldier to be killed vs a civilian child either. It’s two different kinds of horror.
Bigger font doesn’t make you more right.
You can choose whatever age you deem acceptable for the Qassam Brigades and do some math to get the “real” number of children victims
That’s just the thing with manipulating numbers - we can’t do the math. That’s why it’s so effective and why you need to apply critical reading to these kind of reports.
And if they were armed teens, should we kill them
Answer me this - say you have a group of people preparing to launch a rocket. That rocket is inaccurate but they aim it towards a city. There’s a high chance that you’ll be able to intercept it, but there’s always a chance that it’ll fall on a building and kill civilians.
You can target this group, drop a bomb on them and stop them from firing this rocket. Now you learn that 2 of them are 17 years old. Do you drop the bomb? Or do you let them fire the rocket?
In that example, I would be in prison because I refused to join the IDF.
So by avoiding any action you would allow them to fire the rocket.
I understand and respect that.
It’s a huge gray area and just one example of the complex morality component of this conflict.
By avoiding being part of the apartheid system of Israel, I’m one step in the right direction.
So idf should disarm and let their families and fellow countryment be slaughtered like lambs?
You are misrepresenting Israel’s options. It’s a logical fallacy. It’s not “kill or be killed”, and also seems like it’s very dangerous for the hostages that Israel does a ground invasion.
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The propaganda completely ignores this part and reframes this information as if more than 3,000 young and innocent children were slain.
The only thing that’s really propaganda here is your comment. A child conscripted to fight in a war is still a child, and no amount of pretending otherwise by propagandists like yourself will change that fact.
The only thing that’s really propaganda here is your comment
How so?
A child conscripted to fight in a war is still a child
I agree, but I’ll copy what I answered the other comment about this exactly: It’s never ok, but unfortunately this is war and war is shit. An ak47 in the hands of a 12 years old can kill just as well as one in the hands of a 20 years old.
in the Philippines, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, Cambodia, many regions of Africa and essentially wherever there were children-soldiers, the ones that indoctrinated them, trained them and placed firearms in their hands were the ones who were blamed for their deaths.
You seem to hold Israel as the only one accountable for it.
You just don’t get to throw up your hands and say “thats war.” This is not normal and should in no way be normalized (as you seem to be attempting to do.)
edit: a word
You’re ignoring the main points and attacking a straw man again.
no, just tired of your shtick
Reasoning? Critical thinking? Logic? Seeing things as complex rather than one side is 100% correct and the other is 100% at fault? Answering to the point instead of bombastic statements or disinformation aimed to trigger emotional responses?
Stop behaving like a fanatic.
Hey you’re the one who is suggesting we redefine what childhood is to excuse more of Israel’s crimes.
It’s neither reasonable nor logical to justify the murder of innocent children. And yet here you are…
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Propaganda is what’s coming from your mouth.
Website is called savethechildren. I have been conditioned through hundreds of events that their goal is, in fact, to hurt children. I don’t know how, but I’m certain it shall become true.
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Ministries of Health in Gaza is Hamas lead no? Would not be surprised to see the numbers in Gaza being inflated
“Hamas has now been in charge of Gaza for 16 years. It has squeezed the life out of honesty and probity. Any health official stepping out of line and not giving the death tolls that Hamas wants reported to journalists risks serious consequences. I’m not denying there are civilians being killed. At all, including many children. That’s verifiable. What is not verifiable are the numbers that emerge throughout the day from Gaza of new death tolls — 700 killed in the last 24 hours, 500 killed in the Ahli hospital car park blast, 5,000 killed since October 8. Hamas has a clear propaganda incentive to inflate civilian casualties as much as possible. There was a time when the figures from the ministry could be relied upon. The doctors and administrators knew what they were doing.”
This is an area of credibility that is still up in the air with reliable sources claiming that it is both reliable and unreliable numbers that are being published. However none of it though dismisses the fact that innocents are dying from Israel’s War with Hamas, innocents that contain children
The health ministry is completely separate from Hamas
Source? I was under the impression that Hamas was in charge of all Governance in the Gaza Strip
EDIT: Following the 2007 Hamas takeover of Gaza, a month-long doctors’ strike ensued due to political disputes. The new Gaza government, with Basem Naim as Health Minister, replaced Fatah-affiliated hospital directors and staff with Hamas loyalists. Jomaa Alsaqqa, a 20-year surgeon at al-Shifa Hospital, lost his job due to his Fatah support and faced arrests and assaults since the Hamas takeover. In response, Naim stated “the hospital managers weren’t fired for political reasons: they were fired because of managerial, financial, and moral corruption in the hospitals.” per wikipedia article here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Health_Ministry)
While there are political independent and non political members of the Gaza Health Ministry it is still under the direction of Hamas itself.
This is an area of credibility that is still up in the air with reliable sources claiming that it is both reliable and unreliable numbers that are being published. None of it though dismisses the fact that innocents are dying from Israel’s War with Hamas, innocents that contain children
From literally 8 comments down, don’t want you to have to break your scroll wheel.
“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.”
In previous wars, the ministry’s counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel’s tallies.“Hamas has now been in charge of Gaza for 16 years. It has squeezed the life out of honesty and probity. Any health official stepping out of line and not giving the death tolls that Hamas wants reported to journalists risks serious consequences. I’m not denying there are civilians being killed. At all, including many children. That’s verifiable. What is not verifiable are the numbers that emerge throughout the day from Gaza of new death tolls — 700 killed in the last 24 hours, 500 killed in the Ahli hospital car park blast, 5,000 killed since October 8. Hamas has a clear propaganda incentive to inflate civilian casualties as much as possible. There was a time when the figures from the ministry could be relied upon. The doctors and administrators knew what they were doing.”
I don’t see how Palestinians really benefit on the long run from inflating the number of deaths. So many have died and no countries have enough courage or decency to impose sanctions on Israel for it yet. If Palestinians want more deaths, they have a catalog of victims of Israeli crimes, torture cases in prison, etc.
Yes, it’s entirely possible they inflated the numbers, yet we don’t extend the same skepticism to Israel (which is known to play balls deep into the PR game). And honestly, the majority of whom I’ve seen argue against these numbers eventually lead to excusing Israeli war crimes about 3 comments into the discussion.
Hamas has always had an incentive to look like a bigger victim, but in all those times those numbers held up and the UN’s tally matched that provided by doctors. There is no reason to doubt these numbers now because they were correct before even when Hamas had an incentive, in completely identical situations (aka previous wars on Gaza). The trust of these numbers has not been eroded by logic or healthy skepticism, but rather by Israeli propaganda and White House officials bending to it.
I don’t see how Palestinians really benefit on the long run from inflating the number of deaths. So many have died and no countries have enough courage or decency to impose sanctions on Israel for it yet. If Palestinians want more deaths, they have a catalog of victims of Israeli crimes, torture cases in prison, etc.
Currently there is a massive information campaign that is being waged by Isral and the US vs Iran and Gaza https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disinformation_in_the_2023_Israel–Hamas_war
There are attempts to push international support to one side or the other that cause direct impact to this war
Every little gain possible is to shift support to one side or the other
Yeah, I get that. I guess the point of my paragraph was that Palestinian lives never mattered. I thought it was clear after reading my second and third paragraphs that I’m not denying a PR war is happening… But as usual, gotta be ultra clear on the internet.
You mean you don’t trust the word of religious fanatics? SHAME SHAME SHAME
Stop posting obviously false info from a terrorist group.
100 year old charity whose goal is to save children from war is a terrorist group… Are you ok?
Save the Children, in line with OCHA updates, is currently relying on data from the Israeli Ministry of Health for casualties in Israel and from the Gaza Ministry of Health for casualties inside Gaza. Due to the current situation, information and numbers provided by both ministries cannot be verified independently.
important note, since Gaza’s ministry is run by the Hamas and Israel could play those numbers down.
That is refuted already down the page, but here you go. From the AP:
“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.”
In previous wars, the ministry’s counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel’s tallies.Not that I believe you care, as you attempt to lessen the deaths of scores of children, which certainly is gross!
what do I attempt 🤔
Hamas sowing: Haha fuck yeah!!! Yes!!
Hamas reaping: Well this fucking sucks. What the fuck.
Did you forget to switch accounts? Embarrassing.
No? Do you know why people switch accounts lmao
Ah, just a idiot weirdo that responds to their own comments with no context then. OK champ.
That is a top level comment o.O
Are you okay?
It’s shameful that Hamas terrorists intentionally use children as shields.
Let me ask you two questions.
If Hamas is using the Palestinian people as shields and is forcefully preventing civilians from moving away from them, that makes the Palestinian people effectively hostages of Hamas. So if the Palestinian hostages happen to be near Hamas terrorists, are they acceptable collateral damage if Israel bombs them?
Eventually, Israel will find out where the Israeli hostages are being kept. Obviously, there will be Hamas terrorists near them. Are the Israeli hostages acceptable collateral damage if Israel bombs them?
If you answered yes to one question, and no to the other, you should ask yourself why you put different value on the lives of innocent human beings. Is it what side of a fence they are born on? What nationality they happen to have? What religion they believe in? The color of their skin?
rationally, no collateral damage is acceptable. realistically, you just need saturation bombing to answer the question.
You say “answer the question”, as in the ‘Palestinian Question’? Just admit you are advocating for a genocide, a wholesale slaughter of a people based on their nation.
if that’s where your mind goes, that’s on you.
I mean support for Israel sounds like genocide apologia, and the ‘jewish question’ was a term used during the holocaust, so it wasn’t much of a stretch.
support for terrorists like hamas is exactly what it sounds like though.
If a group used terrorism in their fight against the Nazis during WW2, I would shun terrorism but I would be a supporter of that group.
Ugh, that’s twisted logic, so all civilian casualties should be ultimately attributed to Hamas? None of them can be attributed to perhaps an indiscriminate aerial bombardment running for three weeks?
If the bombing was truly indiscriminate then you’d have a point. But a 3 week WW1 era artillery campaign would have fully leveled Gaza a few times over. In order to honestly believe that Israel is indiscriminately bombing Gaza you must believe that their military, the IDF, is the single most incompetent fighting force to ever walk the planet.
If so then yes, attacking the powerful retards is Hamas’ fault and you can attribute the problems that result to them.
Alternatively if you accept that they are discriminatory in where they bomb, balancing civilian casualties vs. the value of the military targets they’d take out; then that question sort of answers itself.
If this alternative, then yes comingling your government and military infrastructure together to use civilians as human shields (a by the book war crime) makes the predictable civilian casualties that result the fault of Hamas.
So according to your logic, each one of the bombs was hitting a legitimate military target. Assuming that Hamas military wing is around 30K, and that Israel is dropping around 400 bombs every day for about 3 weeks, this means that they had hit 82.000 “military” targets over Gaza and the signal from their government is that this war would be very long and bloody war. So how many more “targeted” bombs need to be dropped to kill every one of Hamas? And is the human cost justified?
Have you ever been trapped somewhere and being a subject to heavy bombardment for weeks with no way to escape, no access to food, water, electricity or fuel? How would you feel if you are trapped with all of your family and would you consider the actions of the aggressor as just?
What are the chances that you would start passionately hate this aggressor to deliberately putting you through this, especially if they hurt or kill some of your family members? And I want an honest answer!
Because I know what it would be, there isn’t a single human being that would be happy and not feel utterly miserable in this situation.
So now think is this like a good base for finding a long term peaceful solution where Jews and Arabs can live alongside each other without killing/hating themselves? What about all those kids who are currently going through all of this? Why they need to suffer, what’s their guilt?
You know if you are constantly beating your child, the chances of them turning into not a decent human being are quite high. But please stop being surprised that this is the case, and stop blaming everything on them. A bit of self reflection can do miracles.
So according to your logic, each one of the bombs was hitting a legitimate military target.
Looking at a mapping of the strikes and comparing it with Hama’s tunnel network it does look like they largely line up.
Assuming that Hamas military wing is around 30K, and that Israel is dropping around 400 bombs every day for about 3 weeks, this means that they had hit 82.000 “military” targets over Gaza and the signal from their government is that this war would be very long and bloody war.
Also remember that if they’re targeting underground tunnels you need a lot of ordinance to collapse a tunnel from the air. And if you’re choosing to not use the biggest weapons (which even amongst conventional weapons Israel is clearly not using) you likely need multiple strikes to clear out a tunnel.
So how many more “targeted” bombs need to be dropped to kill every one of Hamas?
I don’t think killing every Hamas operative is the goal. Apparently there’s 30-40k fighters in Hamas’ army. I think the goal is to target the support infrastructure, weapons depot, etc… necessary to train and command that army. Hamas had been largely training this army out in the open before the start of this war. And Israel had been respecting their right to have an army for self defense. Now that they started a war they’re trying to take out all the targets they declined to do over the last few years.
And is the human cost justified?
Unfortunately it’s an unanswerable question, as questions of moral reasoning often are.
How would you feel if you are trapped with all of your family and would you consider the actions of the aggressor as just?
Oh I’d hate it. I feel for the Gazan caught in a war zone. I don’t think I’d believe the aggressor to be just. I just hope I wouldn’t be blindsided enough to not realize that my side was the aggressor.
What are the chances that you would start passionately hate this aggressor to deliberately putting you through this, especially if they hurt or kill some of your family members? And I want an honest answer!
Oh high. I’m human. Just because I’d make a bad decision in the same situation doesn’t make it a good decision.
So now think is this like a good base for finding a long term peaceful solution where Jews and Arabs can live alongside each other without killing/hating themselves?
Honestly, yes. Gaza has self determination, more aid than any other nation of poverty in the world, a favorable trade location, a diaspora capable of generating international remittances, a foreign border and the 1967 peace treaty borders. They can choose peace. They may not; but eventually they will choose peace or they will continue to get stomped on in wars that they start.
You know if you are constantly beating your child, the chances of them turning into not a decent human being are quite high.
Gaza isn’t a child. It’s a nation. It can choose it’s destiny. But if it was the metaphor wouldn’t be a parent/child one. It would be a peers in school one. Israel would be the quite, weird kid who hit their growth spurt early and started hitting the gym because they got picked on in elementary school by everyone. And Gaza is the last kid in Middle School who still tries to pick on that kid every recess and complains that they continue to get punched in the mouth when they cross the line. That’s the more accurate metaphor.
I like that you are honest, and you also seem like a reasonable human being, which is admirable. I know the situation is not black and white and that both sides are complicit to the current situation, I just think that the human cost isn’t justifiable, and achieving it at any cost , which seems to be the intent of the Israelian government, even if that means sacrificing their hostages, which makes it even harder to sympathize.
I truly believe that this would only make things worse in the long term for both Arabs and Jews living in the area. And I fully expect the next government to be more far right and extreme in its measures.
And yes, the father/child was a metaphor, but as you put it can also be a school bully (Israel) and systemically bullied kid (Palestine).
And I think tunnels were first constructed to facilitate the trade between people in Palestine and the neighbouring villages and towns outside Gaza, but then were repurposed by Hamas for their war operations. I mean logically thinking of the right of free movement wasn’t so tightly regulated those tunnels would have probably never been built in the first place. And if Palestinians weren’t so heavily oppressed Hamas wouldn’t be in power right? So in a way Hamas is the reaction of years of ill treatment of Palestinians.
In 1987, after the outbreak of the First Intifada against Israel, Hamas was founded by Palestinian imam and activist Ahmed Yassin.
So one can argue that if this Intifada didn’t occur, Hamas wouldn’t exist nowadays. It was an angry reaction of desperate people (not defending here), just giving a bit of food for thoughts.
And one may also argue if Israel miraculously manage to destroy Hamas, there would be soon another group taking their place in the open vacuum so this would solve nothing in the long term. The only way to solve this problem is Israel to offer Palestine some concessions, cease fire and start treating them fairly in exchange of change of the leadership in the country and disarment of the Hamas war wing, which I don’t see happening with the current government.
And one may also argue if Israel miraculously manage to destroy Hamas, there would be soon another group taking their place in the open vacuum so this would solve nothing in the long term. The only way to solve this problem is Israel to offer Palestine some concessions, cease fire and start treating them fairly in exchange of change of the leadership in the country and disarment of the Hamas war wing, which I don’t see happening with the current government.
in all honesty I don’t think there is any good outcome from this outside of a potential return of Fatah into Gaza
In the past Hamas was willing to work with Israel to avoid violence under the assumption that Israel would assist with Aid
However with Israel’s recent actions in the West Bank over the past few years I do not believe that there will be any true lasting peace until there is a political shift in Israel’s leadership
I am fully with you on this!
I like that you are honest, and you also seem like a reasonable human being, which is admirable.
Thank you for the sentiment. Especially online I think that can get lost.
I know the situation is not black and white and that both sides are complicit to the current situation, I just think that the human cost isn’t justifiable, and achieving it at any cost , which seems to be the intent of the Israelian government, even if that means sacrificing their hostages, which makes it even harder to sympathize.
I guess I’ve just not been convinced that Israel is willing to achieve it “at any cost.” Given my knowledge of modern warfare, granted which is only an armchair level, it does seem clear that Israel is fighting with many self imposed limitation all designed to minimize the civilian casualties that must be suffered. I think that’s the core of why most are sympathetic; they see a similar self-restraint on the part of Israel’s armed forces. It’s almost been impossible to follow the last 20 years or so of these off again on again conflicts and not see the pattern of Hamas’s terrorism and war crimes; and then see them continue it because they face no international consequences for them.
At some point in this conflict every “neutral” observer will “look closer” at a particularly wild claim made by Israel or Hamas like “Hamas’s HQ is located under a Hospital and they have a torture dungeon under there”, “Hamas launches rockets from UN ran schools”, “Check out Hamas $leader’s dope crib in Quatar” or “Israel shells Hospital 500 children dead.” and time and time again they’re going to see the IDF largely didn’t do what Hamas said they did; and Hamas did what the IDF said they did. And most people can only see so many cases of Hamas recklessly committing blatant war crimes, murdering it’s own citizens, not having elections, calling for genocide etc… before they start to sympathize with Israel.
And yes, the father/child was a metaphor, but as you put it can also be a school bully (Israel) and systemically bullied kid (Palestine).
I guess the issue is that most see the metaphor reversed.
And I think tunnels were first constructed to facilitate the trade between people in Palestine and the neighboring villages and towns outside Gaza, but then were repurposed by Hamas for their war operations.
That’s definitely how the ones in the south near the Rafa crossing were originally constructed. Old fashioned smuggling. But the ones in the North are almost exclusively built by Hamas for warfare purposes. As both weapons depot and as ways to cross the border for raids into Israel without getting detected. The use of those tunnels for warfare has been a recurring theme in the series of conflicts since the disengagement.
No matter the origin, the use of those tunnels for war fighting does make them valid military targets.
So one can argue that if this Intifada didn’t occur, Hamas wouldn’t exist nowadays. It was an angry reaction of desperate people (not defending here), just giving a bit of food for thoughts.
I’d agree with that. Israel surely could have worked faster after the end of the Cold War (and the defacto end of financial and miliatary support from Russia towards Israel’s direct enemies) to establish a 2 state solution. But I do think it’s reasonable to note, that the First Intifada started in '87 8 years after Israel proved it was willing to trade land for peace with the Sinai deal with Egypt.
The only way to solve this problem is Israel to offer Palestine some concessions, cease fire and start treating them fairly in exchange of change of the leadership in the country and disarmament of the Hamas war wing
What sort of concessions would Israel need to offer Hamas and Gaza that they haven’t already offered them?
So your point is you think there aren’t enough dead Palestinians yet?
Yes, I really wonder how people cannot try to put themselves in the shoes of the other side of the conflict and ask themselves how they are going to feel in that case, and if they would still have the same thoughts.
And I also wonder how many more civilian casualties need to be inflicted to start questioning the rationale of their government. 10K, 20K, 50K, 1M? And how many Palestinian lives are equal to a single Israeli? 10-20-50-100?
Up until 7th of October it was 308 Israelian casualties vs 6407 Palestinians or more or less 21 times more. https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties or 2063 (boys, girls and women) vs 61, which is even more staggering, 34x.
They don’t see them as humans.
Western leaders really miscalculated the backlash here. They expected the world to stay quiet as usual and let Israel just do their thing, after all, they’re just Muslims.
They thought the world would support them like they did Ukraine. IF they were in the right, why is every fiber in my body screaming that this is wrong? What Hamas did was wrong, but this is disgusting bloodlust.
1400+250 dead or missing > 8000 dead as of today.
AND they said their war could take months. The only hope I have, is that some European leaders are pushing back finally.
Not I don’t think so. Hamas doesn’t think so. The IDF has the capability to genocide Gazans. Hamas needs Gazans to continue to have aid money to loot. If they believed Israel was willing or wanted to conduct a genocide they’d surrender; because they need the population to continue their lifestyle in Quatar.
I’m saying that based on the strike maps from previous wars and this one and the map (both linked in a different thread on this topic) Israel released about actuve
Are those the only two possibilities? Is it possible they want plausible deniability while killing as many as they can? Israeli officials have made it clear that do not want Palestine to exist. The defense minister even called for a second Nakba, greater than the first, which was the original mass displacement of Palestinians.
Are those the only two possibilities?
Likely yes. Israel has a parliamentary system so there are always going to be an official in government with a wild take because they’re the last x% of the coalition that got brought in to push them over the top. If they (Israel) wanted to maximize casualties the more reasonable parts of the coalition would fall apart.
Is it possible they want plausible deniability while killing as many as they can? Israeli officials have made it clear that do not want Palestine to exist.
Israel could easily justify tomahawk sized cruise missiles. 20 or so of them would largely wipe out northern Gaza City. And just one into one of the Southern Gaza camps would kill more than the war has so far. So yes you can believe they want to, but you do have to believe them to be incredibly incompetent.
I believe them to have decades of experience managing their foreign advisors and funding, and are skilled at carefully balancing their war against an innocent and subjected people. You’re probably right though that they could basically nuke Gaza and get away with it, but they wouldn’t because the radiation would harm them too. In a war, isn’t it relevant who started the conflict and for what purpose? Who was the first aggressor in the conflict between Isreal and Palestine?
You’re probably right though that they could basically nuke Gaza and get away with it, but they wouldn’t because the radiation would harm them too.
Gaza isn’t large. They could do it with conventional weapons that have no radiation problems. The risk of nuclear fallout isn’t why they haven’t eliminated Gaza, the lack of desire to eliminate Gaza is.
In a war, isn’t it relevant who started the conflict and for what purpose? Who was the first aggressor in the conflict between Isreal and Palestine?
In this conflict, Hamas’ started the conflict. As for who the “first” aggressors; it would depend on how back you wish to look. If we limit the problem to just post British takeover of the region, than the first aggressors were the British fighting the Ottomans and following it up by enforcing property tax law against the primarily Arab populace who hadn’t paid property taxes in a 1000 years to the Ottomans.
The UN says that, according to anecdotal evidence, in the north of Gaza, air strikes appear to be systematically destroying residential areas.
according to anecdotal evidence
Like not even a “Hamas says” type evidence?
Shields implies that they would use them to block something. Their death means that they obviously weren’t effective in that. You can only use something as a shield if it stops the enemy from doing that thing. The fact that they were still murdered falls at the feet of Israel. You know, as the people that dropped the weapons on their heads.
No. Terrorist Hamas knew there would be a retaliation for their barbaric murderous attack and should have had all civilians in an area separate from themselves in preparation.
Yes. So when people take hostages or use human shields that’s because good guys don’t kill the hostages or shoot through them. The innocent lives matter. That’s how that works. If you act the same if they’re there or not it makes you just as bad. Maybe worse. Glad I could help you figure that out.
No. Hamas are terrorist barbarians who actively get civilians killed in order to protect themselves.
Yes. If you get in a car chase after a murder suspect and run over a civilian with your car, you murdered them. Now that murder could be said to be a mistake. If you consciously run over a civilian because they are in the path between you and the murderer that is very much murder. Now if you go around doing that consistently it’s possible you might be the terrorist, as by definition:
terrorism, the calculated use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective.
Actually, the law in that case would charge the fleeing subject with a murder or aggrivated manslaughter charge (depending on the state).
If you run from police illegally, you’re responsible for the damages cause in the chase (in most states).
How old are you again?
How so?
You’re disgusting, eff your ‘human shield’ story. It’s like a white manager came up with those words as an excuse for genocide. Just like ‘right to defend themselves’ or ‘but Hamas this or that…’
What, like holding them up to block missile strikes that are leveling neighborhoods?
Duct taped to both hands for dexterity
Duct taped to both hands for dexterity bonus
Shields and swords, there’s child soldiers too. And I’d be damned if they don’t count a dead 16 year old with an AK as a poor innocent baby that got murdered by Israel…
