So let me get this straight.
- Linus screwed over a small two-person startup with his own incompetence by using the product in an unintended way and not using the GPU and instructions which were provided for him.
- Stole their prototype which they needed to develop their product further, even going so far as to sell it at auction.
- Goes on record to say “yes, we screwed up but it would cost $100-$500 to fix it so I’m not going to and no, I’m not apologizing for that”. (That amount of money is chump change to him.)
- Lies about offering to recompense the company. They didn’t do that until after getting called out.
- When he gets criticized for screwing over this company for his own mistakes, rather than owning up he tries to gaslight everybody into think he is somehow the victim?? “Today was so hard bros” oh poor wittle multi-millionaire Linus… I’ll be sure to pray for you while I struggle to pay my rent.
What a fucking piece of shit, fuck him. I hate people like this that simply can’t own up to mistakes and have to deflect all criticism.
Woah woah woah woah!
I dunno how many times this has to be said!
He didn’t SELL it! He AUCTIONED it!
That’s a distinction that needs to be made!
And it was for CHARITY. Surely that obsolves him right?
I herby start the bidding on LM! Do I hear $500?
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I feel what you’re saying and I feel like I should be agreeing with you. But we do have to be careful here.
What we know and what we see coming out of LMG is what they want us to know and see. When there’s a video of Linus making it right, It’s because they wanted to make a video showing him making it right. You’re not going to see videos of him making it wrong and screwing over people, (if he does) It would be bad for business.
Likewise one ex employee’s statement of bad treatment there isn’t gospel He has hundreds of people. There are plenty of people that have left and there’s not a lot of consensus that I found that things are horrible there other than pace.
His response to GN is obviously trash, written in a moment of anger. He tends to put his foot in his mouth on live streams when he starts getting angry about a subject.
Him not sending back the prototype block, honestly is probably standard operating procedure. I wouldn’t send anything to them that I didn’t expect to lose. They receive so much equipment from so many places that they don’t even open for years, that they’re probably kind of blind to it actually being a hardship on a smaller place. I see the lie about him saying he already offered to pay them back a bit more problematic.
As far as his actual reputation or his character alignment sheet, we don’t really know. I would assume that if he was chaotic evil that we would hear a hell of a lot more about that. The guy he brought in to run the place is an insulating factor. When it was pitched it seemed that he was there to insulate Linus from the company, it’s also likely that he’s there to insulate the company from Linus.
Honestly the only thing out of all this that rings unassailably true is the untrustworthy data claim. He’s placing himself and his company to be a ultimate source of truth for benchmarking. But he comes right out and says that he won’t strive to make a better benchmark for a product for $500 when the number is obviously off. There really isn’t a lot of room for that in what he’s trying to build. If you’re going to come out and prove that power supplies, video cards, CPUs and motherboards make the numbers they say they’re going to make, you’re not going to do that with incorrect testing, shrugs and accusations. He’s going to need to be honest to a fault and transparent. If he expects us to take the data seriously he’s going to have to get out of this “oh that’s good enough I’d trust it so you should trust it” mentality.
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Jesus fuck Linus. Half the reason you are popular is because people trust your statements; and you are just flushing that away.
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Billet has confirmed that they sent a 3090Ti that LMG has been sitting on for 9 weeks now without using or returning.
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They would have never done this to a larger manufacturer, but since the prototype was a passion project by two tech enthusiasts they simply did not care at all. It’s frankly disgusting.
But why does it even matter if they do it correctly or not? It’s still a water block that costs over $800. It’s a bad product at a fundamental level because not only is it a niche of a niche it’s wildly overpriced. No amount of testing is going to make it a good product. It was never going to sell well. I do not understand why people care so much about it.
The quanity-over-quality and QA errors are way more egregious than them shitting a product that deserves to get shit on. And as far as I can tell the auction thing is a single, isolated mistake of that nature. They do have a track record of making errors in their reviews. But what they don’t have is a history of auctioning off prototypes. It is a really weird thing to be so up-in-arms about. It was an accident and they are paying for it. What is the big deal?
That’s really missing the point. They were trying to sell the water block to rich people with more money than sense that, importantly, wanted the best of the best. By not reviewing it correctly, LTT screwed a small company over pretty hard. Linus then went on to say that he made this decision to save $100 to $500. He was unwilling to spend that kind of money to preserve the journalistic integrity of the channel.
The fact that he tried to make it look like LMG was going to compensate them for the block (replying only after the GN video was released) only makes it worse.
By not reviewing it correctly,
to preserve the journalistic integrity of the channel.
That’s also missing the point. That video was not a review. There wasn’t journalistic integrity because it wasn’t a journalistic piece. If you go into a for-fun video expecting a proper review process of course you are going to be disappointed.
If the argument is that it should have been a full review, then sure maybe it should have. But it wasn’t one, so it doesn’t make any sense to hold it to that standard when that was never the intention behind it.
The video is clearly about the water block. They describe their experience while building a computer with it and then give purchasing advice. Sure seems close enough to a review that they should be fair to the manufacturer. And their ethics should not go out of the window just because the didn’t put “review” in the title (when was the last time they did that anyway…).
It can be about the water block without being a review of the water block. The premise of the video is somebody with no experience doing water cooling (Adam) trying to build it. If the intent was for it to be a review they would have someone more knowledgeable do it. I completely disagree it is unethical to make a for-fun video messing around with it, unless they agreed to do something else in their emails with Billet Labs which we have not seen.
I also don’t believe they give any purchasing advice either but feel free to post a timestamp if you have one.
You sure are going to unusual lengths to (poorly) defend this behavior. Maybe there’s something you should be disclosing about who you really are.
What? They put it on the wrong card when the correct card was provided by the manufacturer. The manufacturer confirmed to them the incompatability. If the premise of the video is “idiots do something wrong and act like it’s the part’s fault because they felt personally slighted and have an ego driven response”.
It wasn’t, if they had the correct and compatible part, it may have been an entirely different experience to them, and that part was provided to them by the manufacturer.
We don’t even know if a lay person with instructions and the right part would have issues, because the original unforced error by LMG was so egregious. No matter what you have to see how this isn’t fair to anyone, especially not the target consumer of this device. It might even paint it in a very negative light through the fault of the people making the video, entirely. The manufacturer did everything they could.
Then when called out they double down on the ego hurt response, twice. Saying nothing would change when they never even tried to use it device appropriately. Then they add insult to injury by never even giving the part back.
FYI - selling the prototype (LMG were aware this was a one of a kind proto) ensures that no other reviewer can have an easier time installing on the right hardware, no one can ever prove Linus wrong because the part is gone and they won’t say to who…
That’s weird right?
Recently LTT built a $100k PC desk for a Minecraft streamer. Sometimes the over the top engineering/materials (and thus cost) around something is the entire point. If they gave it a fair shake, and still called it a bad product, and then returned it. There wouldn’t be an issue. It being a bad product isn’t the issue.
Then what is the issue? If the outcome is the same why does it matter? The video it was featured in wasn’t even a review, the premise was someone who has zero experience in water cooling trying to install it. I feel like most people didn’t even watch the video.
Sure do love the hivemind downvoting instead of answering my question. I am genuinely asking, what is the issue? I really don’t understand why it has so many people this mad. To me it seems like people were expecting a review when that wasn’t the intent of the video.
The video it was featured in wasn’t even a review, the premise was someone who has zero experience in water cooling trying to install it
So sick of this shit. Reviewing something and then hiding behind “it’s not a review bro!” You know damn well the criticisms extended beyond just that. Linus straight up just said it was a bad product outright. THAT’S A REVIEW.
He didn’t say it was a bad product in anywhere in the video. Maybe you should watch the thing you are trying to criticize.
The original video is clearly a review and he clearly criticizes the product for being hard to install even though he is of course installing it incorrectly and not using the materials the company provided. He states unequivocally it’s a bad product here: “It’s a bad product. It’s bad because it makes absolutely no sense and nobody should buy it”.
While not saying out right that it is bad, he is certainly implying it and clearly telling his audience that they should not buy it.
At 32:42 of the video of the original report.
https://youtu.be/FGW3TPytTjcI am on mobile and can’t figure out timestamps.
The issue is that they stole a prototype they were entrusted to care for. Agreed to return it, but then didn’t. Got mad when they were kindly asked to return it. Put it on auction, sold it to someone for charity. Potentially unintentionally facilitating corporate espionage. Then got mad when they were publicly called out.
This is not the first time even. They have lost, misplaced or destroyed other’s properties before.
And now they want to project LMG and their new concept, Lab, as a beacon of consumer protection journalism. They have to make a choice. Either they are an entertainment company, or a serious tech review magazine that tests technology to provide consumers with accurate info to make purchase decisions. They can’t be both, the jank and fooling around of one doesn’t work nicely with the journalistic ethics demanded of the other.
“They” didn’t agree to return it. Someone responding to an email did. Linus himself and the other 100+ employees probably had no idea the thing even existed. It is really on the person who responded to the email and the planners of the auction which is probably 2-3 people at most.
Got mad when they were kindly asked to return it.
Where? That did not happen until after the video was published.
Put it on auction, sold it to someone for charity.
Which was an accident, which is being paid for.
This is not the first time even. They have lost, misplaced or destroyed other’s properties before.
Do you have any examples? And if that is the case maybe Billet Labs should have done more due-diligence before giving them a supposedly very important prototype. Linus is literally known as the guy who drops things.
And now they want to project LMG and their new concept, Lab, as a beacon of consumer protection journalism. They have to make a choice. Either they are an entertainment company, or a serious tech review magazine that tests technology to provide consumers with accurate info to make purchase decisions. They can’t be both, the jank and fooling around of one doesn’t work nicely with the journalistic ethics demanded of the other.
Fair enough but I disagree. I think you can have for-fun videos and serious videos mixed together. However they should definitely be more clearly labeled as such, or maybe even keep them on different channels completely.
No, go away. You obviously have no interest in reasonable conversation. As you are willfully ignoring already mentioned facts and arguments from the video in order to be contrarian and hard headed. I will not indulge you.
LMG is the company that did these things. Billet was under the impression they were talking with a representative of LMG, for which all that they agreed with, was binding. If someone, an individual, failed at their job to fulfill their agreements with Billet, then LMG, the company, failed. If Linus wants to be taken seriously and have LMG considered a big adult company, they better start acting like it. And that starts with taking responsibility and owning up to their mistakes responsibly. Not letting their CVO and owner go on idiot circular incoherent rants.
“They” didn’t agree to return it. Someone responding to an email did. Linus himself and the other 100+ employees probably had no idea the thing even existed. It is really on the person who responded to the email and the planners of the auction which is probably 2-3 people at most.
Tell me you’ve never had a position of actual authority without telling me you’ve never had a position of actual authority.
Linus, is this you?
You got me. It’s me, Linus Sebastian. you guys know I love the Twitch emote AYAYA so much I use it as my username.
Mate, it’s a prototype, their first product. If that design works well and will be mass produced the price goes down. With possibly a budget option released later that actually makes sense to buy.
A lot of companies started with the luxury version of a product and then later offered budget versions after showing everyone they could deliver.
Linus not only dissed them (after “testing” the product on the wrong GPU) but also sold off their only prototype. Otherwise they could have sent it to another reviewer to do a proper test.
You wanna talk about poorly run businesses? Why are they sending out their prototype if they only have one and it’s so important? At least make two of them.
When your defense of LMG boils down to “anyone would be stupid to trust them with something important”…
And yes, it was stupid to trust them and I hope no one else does going forward. But it doesn’t change that LMG were the ones to screw up and did so in so many ways it’s comical. Either they don’t know what they are doing, don’t care, or some combination of the two.
It’s not a water block that costs $800 though. It’s a prototype water block that they estimated the cost of producing to be around $800 given R&D, labor, materials, etc.
It was never meant to be a production ready product, and it should never have been treated as such.
The issue with the auction is due to the fact that they sent Billet numerous emails claiming to have prepared it to be shipped back, including one in which they said they would send tracking info shortly. They didn’t know it was being auctioned off until afterward. And Linus didn’t contact them about compensation until 3 hours after GNs video went live.
These are facts, backed by actual evidence which you can see for yourself in GNs latest HW news.
The product costs over $800. I’m not talking about the prototype. And sure “they” sent Billet multiple emails. That means one person sent the emails and then failed to follow up on them. The 100+ people at the company are not responsible for what happened, the 2-3 people that should have dealt with it are.
And Linus didn’t contact them about compensation until 3 hours after GNs video went live.
Okay? But he is compensating them. That is all I said.
The 100+ people at the company are not responsible for what happened, the 2-3 people that should have dealt with it are.
That’s not how businesses work.
Those 2-3 people were acting as employees of the company, executing business for the company. The company is responsible for those actions.
You can’t just hand-wave it away as “our employees suck at their jobs”.
You hired them. You authorized them to do those jobs. You are responsible for the manner in which they were done (or not done)
Sure, but people are acting like Linus himself is somehow directly responsible for it, some people even acting like it’s intentionally malicious, when it’s more just lack of oversight.
Billet estimated the cost of the prototype to be $800. They never sent them a product.
Linus said “they agreed on compensation” and yet billet has stated they never responded to his offer, that he sent literal hours after GN posted the main video. Linus lied here. He can say he is compensating them all he wants, but there has not been any agreement made between the parties involved. They didn’t want payment, they wanted their fucking prototype back.
Billet estimated the cost of the prototype to be $800.
You already have incorrect information. That is the cost of the actual product not the cost of the prototype.
And he did not lie, he said agreed to compensate them which he did do. That doesn’t require an agreement between parties, he decided he would do it which is objectively true.
They didn’t want payment, they wanted their fucking prototype back.
They can make another one with the money. It’s not like they took the CAD files. It’s a manufactured piece of copper. It can be rebuilt.
Because that’s literally their whole job. Their justification for testing something on hardware it wasn’t intended for is that they (LTT) didn’t want to spend the money on their end required to do their job properly.
It’s not about the product in question. It’s about their clearly inadequate processes and considerations, prioritizing profits over accuracy. Kinda terrible for a company trying to break into the whole accuracy market with their testing and data.
That video was not a review. So no, in this case that was not their job. Their job was to entertain. I agree they have inadequate processes and are prioritizing profits over accuracy for their reviews. But that is not relevant to the water block video.
Nah, I am not buying that. They gave an opinion based on data they collected. That is a review, even if they don’t call it that.
review: a formal assessment or examination of something with the possibility or intention of instituting change if necessary.
What about the video was formal? It is two people dicking around with water cooling for 20 minutes it’s not a formal review.
Well Linus argument doesn’t hold much water. If the product is so fundamentally flawed in his mind, then why even bother with it? If you as a reviewer can’t even give a proper opinion and spend an other 500 dollars on it, to give your audience a good review. Then don’t spend the extra 1000 dollars or more in editing that video.
His looking at views to show his sponsors, but forgets that the audience is the first thing that generates those views. Still a viewer of the main LTT channel, but Shortcurcet was fast out of my subscription list.
And as a non English native speaker, please don’t but the corrections on subtitle height, it a hassle.
If the product is so fundamentally flawed in his mind, then why even bother with it? If you as a reviewer can’t even give a proper opinion and spend an other 500 dollars on it, to give your audience a good review.
For fun. For entertainment. That is the point of the video. He wasn’t making that video “as a reviewer” he was making it as an entertainer.
He wasn’t making that video “as a reviewer” he was making it as an entertainer.
“It’s a bad product. It’s bad because it makes absolutely no sense and nobody should buy it”
That’s on the WAN Show, that’s not part of the video. Separately made comments are separate.
Well then he shouldn’t have given a buyers recommendation. Some of Linus video’s don’t make any sense, like everyone can install a swimming pool at the back of their PC? Those balls to the walls videos are still the most fun to watch, as it’s original content, and maybe something they should stick to more often.
But don’t give a buyer recommendation about a small company, if the testing is done in a bad way.
Link to me where in the video there was a buyer recommendation.
Part of his rambling reply to the GN video was a comment that he was ‘looking out for the consumer’ and they didn’t want to recommend buying it. It was part of his justfication not to use the thing correctly.
But why does it even matter if they do it correctly or not?
Because people with a case of the give a damns would give a damn.
But it has zero effect on the outcome? It is over priced regardless of whether or not it cools well.
A review isn’t a conclusion. It’s an overview of a product. A slapstick video where you throw together a system to review something and fail to even use the right graphics card when you HAVE IT ON HAND is just assinine in terms of being lazy and not doing your job right
But the video is not supposed to be a review. Literally the whole point is for it to be asinine entertainment. Their job for that video was to entertain not to do a review.
Did you downvote your own comment? How do you have zero upvotes?
This is exactly the problem LTT is having, thinking they know better then the consumer. If the only metric is value/money then Apple, Ferrari , Hermes, etc… Would not exist.
They really need to take a step back and rearrange their priorities as a company.
Transistors at a point were a thousand dollars each. If you know anything about historic pricing for computer components you would know that anything new will be inordinately expensive because of the cost of custom components, new assembly processes, and custom tooling.
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What harm was done exactly? If anything this is one of the greatest things that could have possibly happened to their company. They’re getting more positive publicity than a good review would have given them from this controversy.
And I am autistic, so congrats for figuring that out I guess. I have a hard time relating to other people. What I am supposed to do? I can’t magically feel the way you do and this whole thing is based on feelings rather than any actual tangible damage being done. In my mind if you make a mistake, apologize, and pay for it you should be good to go assuming they don’t have the same issue again in the future.
And sociopathy is not a simple lack of empathy it is a specific set of symptoms. Stop diagnosing people over the internet. It’s doubtful you have a degree in psychology and if you do you would know that’s unethical which is ironic considering the LTT discussion of ethics.
Relating to other people can be challenging if it is not something that comes to you naturally.
Let’s say this happened to you personally. Maybe you saved the last of your money to take a chance and make something you wanted to be proud of, maybe Linus was someone you looked up to, maybe you worked countless days to design and redesign to get it perfect. How would Linus’s initial response make you feel?
Let’s say you give him the benefit of the doubt on the initial review. You wait, and try to work with him to get things set right, and you don’t get a resolution. And then this happens. And you see his response where he still does not apologize or regret how he handled it.
How would you feel now? You put a lot of effort into all of this, to be shamed and belittled and have negative things said about your product and efforts for everyone to see.
If none of that would make you sad or upset, then you are able to shrug off a lot more than most people. Empathy is going to have to be something that you recognize you don’t have, but still have to be able to show sympathy, because you don’t want to invalidate the feelings of others. Try to understand their perspective if possible.
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Linus just straight up lied about Billet labs resolution. That alone is horrendous behaviour.
Linus is always dropping shit, and this is no different.
Also, don’t fuck with tech Jesus
It’s looking like Linus should have taken that $100 million offer he got and left when he had the chance.
I get that some people like working, and that business founders can be very emotionally invested in their baby.
But to imagine having $100 million waved in my face and saying “nah, I think I’ll just wake up and go to work tomorrow” is crazy to me. But I guess you can’t be a billionaire if you “settle” for nine figures and an absurdly comfortable life with nothing but free time to find new interests and see the world.
I don’t think he works “traditionally” as he is essentially the sole founder and CEO. He’s the centre piece but it’s not like you’re actually “going to work” but rather building something. That doesn’t make the $100 an escape but more as an offer for someone to take what you built all this time and saying later.
A good analogy is walking your dog, that you cherish, and someone offers to buy him right there.
Even if you like working. Taking those $100 million means you and your family will, for generations not have to worry about work. You can take the money and still work like a madman by either making a new venture or doing charity.
But I guess for some people it’s more about the power than the money.
I can imagine it is his dreamjob, in which case what the heck would money matter?
That is quite likely the main reason he refused.
That company is probably worth way more then that. Or at least could be. So if you’re even remotely prideful, you probably think that’s a slap in the face.
I doubt it is worth way more than that now.
Of course, but the offer was prior to the issues coming out.
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A labs employee mouthed off and GN went full scorched earth
Wow. When you’re supposed to wait and hear from both sides and this is what comes… Yikes. Went to check and read the whole response and any other replies that might have come from it on their forum and found ~115 pages (oops 2 more while writing this) of discussion after Linus’ post.
All I want is just good hardware reviews, the rest is noise…
All I want is just good hardware reviews
Same. Seems LTT and Short Circuit is out. As demonstrated, they aren’t a reliable source.
Same, that’s why i never liked that twat
I really only ever followed any tech channels for cool videos and news, reviews are nearly pointless to me until I’m trying to actually buy or recommend something.
But outside of an occasional great video or at least great topic (like the 48kW fan), LMG barely offers anything special in that space anymore, despite still being the biggest outlet. GN has news down pat (along with reviews), Storage Review and STH cover enterprise stuff that Linus has only exceeded once with the million dollar (or whatever it was) setup, and plenty of channels do guides.
I’ve never understood the appeal of Linus Tech Tips anyway. Anthony was great but Linus is just terrible as a host. “Oh no, Linux sucks because it is not Windows! Oh no I broke the system because I couldn’t read the text on the screen!”
I feel like the point of that video though was to point out how a common user using linux would just make these kind of mistakes which do happen and are legitimate. That’s one of the reasons why I enjoy Linux Mint so much really. Simple to use and not too much of a hassle while also slightly helping you understand some of the easier aspects of Linux.
Linus is tech cancer plain and simple, now more so.
He’s an idiot. After I saw him installing Linux I was sure about that. What a bozo.
and now there stuf about sexual harasment…
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Oof.
I agree with Steve on everything, this was a huge blunder and fail in messaging from Linus. But you are supposed to reach out and ask for comment before running a story. I was a news reporter and have a master’s in public relations.
Edit: Called Linus “Linux”
But you are supposed to reach out and ask for a comment before running a story.
In certain cases yes. This is not one. What comment could Linus have given that would contextualize the story in such a way to excuse factual information?
Steve was absolutely vindicated in refusing to ask for comment due to Linus’s behavior. Had he asked for comment, Linus would have contacted Billet prior to the release. Instead, Linus makes a statement that heavily (if not outright) implies that had Steve asked for comment he would have context to know that an agreement had been made between LMG/Linus and Billet Labs before the video dropped. Because Steve did not reach out for comment we now know that this was a lie or an attempt to obfuscate the truth.
If you are extolling factual information you do not owe the subject a comment. If your work could be damaged (see above) by doing so you do not owe the subject a comment. If a person has already commented publicly you do not owe the subject a comment.
Steve reported objectively factual information that cannot be excused with any context. The story that was written at the time would have been damaged had he asked for comment. Linus has a public presence and has made his feelings known about previous scandals before, and his actual response was entirely telegraphed in tone, if not also content, by long time viewers.
There is not some ethics masterclass that would have come to the conclusion that Steve violated journalistic integrity by running this story without comment from Linus. You may not like it, but you’re also not some ethics in journalism arbiter.
I agree it’s generally good practice to ask the subject for comment, and Steve seems to know that because he explains at length why he didn’t here. I criticized him for this when the last video came out, but I thought his explanation in this new video for why he didn’t contact Linus first is pretty good; I’m not sure why you’re being downvoted here, but since you are a former reporter I’d be interested in hearing specifics on why you disagree with it.
Yea, I think that and a few other nitpicky things are the only flaws in GN’s argument. Otherwise, the testing results and Billet’s response speaks for itself. LTT is going too loose and fast and while that’s bad, it’s understandable if you’re a fledging company. That’s all LTT had to point out. And instead of being humble and retrospective they put out this PR nightmare of a response.
I used to be a regular watcher of LTT, but really noticed their latest videos have declined in quality and it’s apparent that they’re just pumping out as much videos as possible.
