I agree with that the abusive cops and ice is insane in the US, and it should be stopped. I also believe that the US is a corrupt nation in nearly every place of the government and surrounding instances.
But a question surround this, what if the US wasn’t corrupt and the judges would actually follow the law (juries wouldn’t be able to exist for most cases) and hypothetical if the US had privacy laws for everything besides businesses wouldn’t this be the same punishable offence that would protect citizens?
In GDPR countries (among others) nobody is allowed to do something like this with face recognition because the law works for everybody. (Some people are trying to destroy this in some countries, though).
At the same time, if the government is allowed to use facial recognition and other anti-privacy measures to identify people where there is no ground to, then why shouldn’t the people be able to do that?
Edit: I am not from the US and my look on life and trias political situations is different than what the fuck is happening in the US
In GDPR countries (among others) nobody is allowed to do something like this with face recognition because the law works for everybody.
Lmao, in france facial recognition is being rolled out all over and we got laws explicitly prohibiting the filming of cops (ofcourse, the only reasonable action to take against the documented brutality of the pigs /s)
I’m not from the U.S. either, so a lot of that is coming from a place of ignorance, so bear with me please. But the way I understand it, is that the website just lets you look up name and badge number - things that police officers (at least in most jurisdictions) are obliged to provide upon request, but often fail to do so in recent U.S. developments. So one could argue that this is more about access to information that should be available anyway, rather than doxxing people for the fun of it, right?
You don’t want the name of the piece of shit that fuck us a traffic stop and shoots your neurodivergent teenager daughter in the face to stay anonymous; not you, or your community, nor anyone wants that.
Yeah I guess, I didn’t know that the name was public information. It doesn’t really make sense to me why that is needed.
Imo the badge number should be enough to file a formal complaint somewhere and get somebody to act according to that complaint.
Well, the US Supreme court did explicitely say cops have no expectation of anonymity while doing their job. This is completely legal. Its premised on the idea that cops arent there to be abusive but to uphold the law, which is not always actually true. The root of the problem is cops behavior themselves rather than the recording or identifying of them. Up until very recently cops at least had their names visible and were required to show ID upon request.
I believe you that it is legal and maybe it should be in the US.
I am just saying that it would be a weird thing if the US ever added more privacy laws since this kinda contradicts this. I believe that the badge number should be enough for some other party to punish cops when needed.
But I do not live in the US so my point of view is already a bit different on this entire situation
If the police weren’t unaccountable invaders, and just, liked, issued annoying tickets or whatever instead of murdering children and doing to crowds of peaceful civilians things that would be war crimes if done to uniformed enemy soldiers literally any tike they assemble, or even if the obes who actually did that stuff were punished literally at all when they did, i don’t think anyone would have even thought to do this.
The answer is that I don’t think it matters because the US or any other society will never reach some utopic standard of privacy. So long as we live in a world where facial recognition is possible - it is better to regulate it strongly than attempt to prohibit it.
In a modern globalized world the old privacy is dead, no matter how you look at it. Going forward something new will need to be built out of the ashes, be it a new privacy or something better/worse.
Well yeah it is better to regulate it but that should include that you aren’t allowed to use the data from it to track people etc.
We already have protrait right in the GDPR so it is already hard to use.
Kindly, I believe your blind faith in your societal institutions to be at best naive and at worst a danger to liberty. I mean this as a genuine warning meant to be heeded, not a personal criticism directed at you. I’m an American. This exact blind institutional faith I see you and many other Europeans frequently espouse online was a core part of what caused the civil collapse of my own society. It will happen in yours too if you guys aren’t careful. The prevalence of this way of thinking amongst Europeans I meet online is a dangerous omen. You guys remind me a lot of us back in the 90s. Please. Take it not from an ignorant American, but from a global citizen who has already been down the rough and tumble line.
I think I’ll just quote you from another comment you made in this exact same thread, because you encapsulated it better than I ever could:
“…If your country is corrupt then yes the people with money have power. Not every country is corrupt enough for people to really buy into it.”
This is a fiction. It is a noble lie you are told by people with power. Think semantically. What is corruption? What is “money,” “power,” etc? In your mind, in countries that you believe to be “one of the good ones,” one where by your description the nation “isn’t corrupt enough for people to really buy into it”… who controls the nation and how? Realistically, you aren’t going to be able to provide an answer to that question that is free from discussing existing corruption, because your idea of supposed societies that cross some arbitrary threshold of being “pure vs corrupt”… doesn’t exist in reality. There exists not one corruption-free government, now or ever, in the history of mankind.
This sounds fantastical from your POV but I do mean it as a genuine warning to be heeded. First it starts with gradual scrapes and nicks at the block of reason… stuff exactly like this that everyone engages in on some level, to some degree - it is a transmogrification of the social conscious… soon yet the fascists carve their own damnable Michelangelo from the marble, instead.
The system in the US is different than what we have in NL, nontheless is it good to be vigilant yes I agree, but I have also seen plenty of laws, rules and regulations here in NL and the EU. I also know that some people in the EU are trying to destroy things like encryption because it is abused by crimnals.
There are also plenty of examples of why our tax system is broken at times and people can abuse it. I have seen it enough first hand and at a further distance.
But we still have an open selection for the government and loads of different people from different parties to vote onto which makes it a lot harder fo somebody to do something similar in the US and buy votes etc.
Part of my work is signaling corruptions, well mainly fraud and financing of terrorism etc, but still. The transparance in The Netherlands really helps with preventing it.
But yes I am vigilent, we are lucky that our government failed with Geert Wilders
The plebs and the regime never have the same rights, in any country
FR is definitely used in GDPR countries.
For police it’s so- called ‘tightly regulated’.
For private use forbidden but ‘there are exeptions’
“Based on trias politcal yes you do.” what are you trying to say?
And I said nothing about corruption or ‘people with money’
Again, what are you trying to say?
Sorry, but I assume everybody here at least has a basic level of understanding on the political system most democratic countries are at least somewhat based on.
Trias Political is the sense that you have the government, the police and the judges. Everybody needs to follow the law, the government makes that law, the judges judge who gets punished and how long and the police enact that punishment. (Very broadly explained).
If the system works like intended or at least close to, then everybody has the same rights and need to follow the same low.
You are were talking about “the regime” what regime are you talking about? Generally people mean the 1%er’s or at least the actual rich. Corruption is what allows the inequality between people, but removing the corruption can also cause issues. Just look at the situation in Brazil.
Facial recognition is not something any company can just use in a GDPR country in the way they do in China or in this example. Again, we have rights.
My original comment was more an “if” question about what IF the US actually functioned like a democracy instead of a consuming focussed, angelo-saxton country.
" Sorry, but I assume everybody here at least has a basic level of understanding on the political system"
I certainly do and know the pretty concept of separation of power, if you have trouble with spelling and forming coherent sentences that’s another matter.
When you say "most democratic countries " That means you believe in the solely theoretical concept of democracy, it doesn’t exist.
Or what countries do ypu think have that?
And LOL at using China as a negative example of FR.
England for one is far worse.
And no I do not mean the 1%ers which is a silly concept. I mean the regime/government whose rights and powers far exceed the powers of normal citizens.
Even when the theory/law doesn’t say that in your imaginary democratic state.
“a consuming focussed angelo-saxton country” again, what do you mean?
That is exactly what we in the west call democracies.
It is merely an ultra-capitalist ,so consumer and profit focused concept. The rights are there on paper.
The TLDR about Anglo-Saxon vs Rheinland’s is different cultures in companies and the Anglo-Saxon (mistranslated in my previous comment) mindset is more along the lines of profit and shareholder value optimalisation (you see this a lot in the English-speaking countries) and the Rheinland’s model has more focus for other things like the other stakeholders like the employees. (You see this more in NL and DE, among others). The Rheinland’s model isn’t the greatest, it is slower because there is more to consider than profit maximisation. And pretty sure it is also worse for startups for similar reasons.
The US is also really consuming focussed, they really want you to consume aka buy as much as possible. That’s why big box stores exist, and that is generally how they seem to act.
The modern NL had a good monetary head start due to our past, but in general our system is pretty decent. It will take a while to get something done and the government will fall pretty often, but everybody can get into it, at least in some levels if they get enough votes. In local politics, this isn’t the hardest thing to do if you want it and believe you can make a difference.
We have a lot of issues (uneven taxes, people missing out on social security due to faults of others, discrimination, etc.). But I do truly believe that our government, the rule of law and the executive power is at least pretty decent.
Edit: I don’t believe the US is a good democracy in electoral votes and the mainly 2 party system. Then again the US is just to big and more comparable to the EU than to one country.
What I can say is the,name it Rheinland or W-European is less bad than the awful Anglo-countries indeed.
While there was a few decades of good social structures and conditions for workers post WW2 they have been destroying it slowly but surely.
I am Belgian, so I presume you’re a NL neighbour?
I know things have been going down (a lot of you here for free education and bcs buying NL houses are unafordable) and certainly for Germans even under Merkel who made a lot of people work low wage jobs with very little protection, throw away jobs.
And again it’s getting worse.
The NL government is awful and (extreme) right making awful laws.
Like Germany they are among the biggest bootlickers of the genocider state and the US terrorists.
The extreme right hasn’t been able to do much in NL besides postponing getting anything done. Like I said it is slow af to get anything done in NL due to our structure, but at least the extreme right (or extreme left for the matter) will have less option to pass any actual laws.
Yes, we have issues with housing, the tax system and maybe even schooling.
The housing thing is mostly because of bureaucracy and because of environment reasons, we haven’t been able to comply with the EU regulations surround the environmental values.
The tax system just fucks over a lot of people, either because the system is to complex for people or because it is just badly written.
And the whole school thing is partially resolved and partially an issue because people didn’t read that the loan was only 0% interest for the next few years and because people didn’t know what their options are. Again it is a complex system and some people don’t really understand it, but don’t seek help either or they don’t get the correct help.
There have been talks about making it easier to get the bureaucracy done for building more houses, which hopefully passes. The entire tax system will not be redone anytime soon, so people can still have issues with that, but we will wait and see for that.
Compared to most nations, yes the Dutch government is crap at the time of writing, but that is partially because we do not have a government.
The previous Schoof government was also a shit show, but that’s because WIlders can just play opposition and besides his extreme right statements he mostly has left leaning once so he contradicts himself half the time. He is also a one man party which doesn’t help. The BBB is just a one statement party and the NSC just fell apart almost instantly, at least Omtzigt tried I gues. He was like the only person that we could vote for last time that understood how the issues with our tax system are making everything worse.
I agree with that the abusive cops and ice is insane in the US, and it should be stopped. I also believe that the US is a corrupt nation in nearly every place of the government and surrounding instances.
But a question surround this, what if the US wasn’t corrupt and the judges would actually follow the law (juries wouldn’t be able to exist for most cases) and hypothetical if the US had privacy laws for everything besides businesses wouldn’t this be the same punishable offence that would protect citizens?
In GDPR countries (among others) nobody is allowed to do something like this with face recognition because the law works for everybody. (Some people are trying to destroy this in some countries, though).
At the same time, if the government is allowed to use facial recognition and other anti-privacy measures to identify people where there is no ground to, then why shouldn’t the people be able to do that?
Edit: I am not from the US and my look on life and trias political situations is different than what the fuck is happening in the US
Lmao, in france facial recognition is being rolled out all over and we got laws explicitly prohibiting the filming of cops (ofcourse, the only reasonable action to take against the documented brutality of the pigs /s)
I’m not from the U.S. either, so a lot of that is coming from a place of ignorance, so bear with me please. But the way I understand it, is that the website just lets you look up name and badge number - things that police officers (at least in most jurisdictions) are obliged to provide upon request, but often fail to do so in recent U.S. developments. So one could argue that this is more about access to information that should be available anyway, rather than doxxing people for the fun of it, right?
You don’t want the name of the piece of shit that fuck us a traffic stop and shoots your neurodivergent teenager daughter in the face to stay anonymous; not you, or your community, nor anyone wants that.
Yeah I guess, I didn’t know that the name was public information. It doesn’t really make sense to me why that is needed. Imo the badge number should be enough to file a formal complaint somewhere and get somebody to act according to that complaint.
A good time to ask this question after it’s used for good and we have politicians in office who aren’t against the will of the people, not before
Well, the US Supreme court did explicitely say cops have no expectation of anonymity while doing their job. This is completely legal. Its premised on the idea that cops arent there to be abusive but to uphold the law, which is not always actually true. The root of the problem is cops behavior themselves rather than the recording or identifying of them. Up until very recently cops at least had their names visible and were required to show ID upon request.
I believe you that it is legal and maybe it should be in the US.
I am just saying that it would be a weird thing if the US ever added more privacy laws since this kinda contradicts this. I believe that the badge number should be enough for some other party to punish cops when needed. But I do not live in the US so my point of view is already a bit different on this entire situation
If the police weren’t unaccountable invaders, and just, liked, issued annoying tickets or whatever instead of murdering children and doing to crowds of peaceful civilians things that would be war crimes if done to uniformed enemy soldiers literally any tike they assemble, or even if the obes who actually did that stuff were punished literally at all when they did, i don’t think anyone would have even thought to do this.
They are abd they do and they don’t, though.
The answer is that I don’t think it matters because the US or any other society will never reach some utopic standard of privacy. So long as we live in a world where facial recognition is possible - it is better to regulate it strongly than attempt to prohibit it.
In a modern globalized world the old privacy is dead, no matter how you look at it. Going forward something new will need to be built out of the ashes, be it a new privacy or something better/worse.
Well yeah it is better to regulate it but that should include that you aren’t allowed to use the data from it to track people etc. We already have protrait right in the GDPR so it is already hard to use.
Kindly, I believe your blind faith in your societal institutions to be at best naive and at worst a danger to liberty. I mean this as a genuine warning meant to be heeded, not a personal criticism directed at you. I’m an American. This exact blind institutional faith I see you and many other Europeans frequently espouse online was a core part of what caused the civil collapse of my own society. It will happen in yours too if you guys aren’t careful. The prevalence of this way of thinking amongst Europeans I meet online is a dangerous omen. You guys remind me a lot of us back in the 90s. Please. Take it not from an ignorant American, but from a global citizen who has already been down the rough and tumble line.
I think I’ll just quote you from another comment you made in this exact same thread, because you encapsulated it better than I ever could:
This is a fiction. It is a noble lie you are told by people with power. Think semantically. What is corruption? What is “money,” “power,” etc? In your mind, in countries that you believe to be “one of the good ones,” one where by your description the nation “isn’t corrupt enough for people to really buy into it”… who controls the nation and how? Realistically, you aren’t going to be able to provide an answer to that question that is free from discussing existing corruption, because your idea of supposed societies that cross some arbitrary threshold of being “pure vs corrupt”… doesn’t exist in reality. There exists not one corruption-free government, now or ever, in the history of mankind.
This sounds fantastical from your POV but I do mean it as a genuine warning to be heeded. First it starts with gradual scrapes and nicks at the block of reason… stuff exactly like this that everyone engages in on some level, to some degree - it is a transmogrification of the social conscious… soon yet the fascists carve their own damnable Michelangelo from the marble, instead.
The system in the US is different than what we have in NL, nontheless is it good to be vigilant yes I agree, but I have also seen plenty of laws, rules and regulations here in NL and the EU. I also know that some people in the EU are trying to destroy things like encryption because it is abused by crimnals.
There are also plenty of examples of why our tax system is broken at times and people can abuse it. I have seen it enough first hand and at a further distance.
But we still have an open selection for the government and loads of different people from different parties to vote onto which makes it a lot harder fo somebody to do something similar in the US and buy votes etc.
Part of my work is signaling corruptions, well mainly fraud and financing of terrorism etc, but still. The transparance in The Netherlands really helps with preventing it.
But yes I am vigilent, we are lucky that our government failed with Geert Wilders
The plebs and the regime never have the same rights, in any country
FR is definitely used in GDPR countries.
For police it’s so- called ‘tightly regulated’.
For private use forbidden but ‘there are exeptions’
Based on trias politcal yes you do.
If your country is corrupt then yes the people with money have power. Not every country is corrupt enough for people to really buy into it.
“Based on trias politcal yes you do.” what are you trying to say?
And I said nothing about corruption or ‘people with money’
Again, what are you trying to say?
Sorry, but I assume everybody here at least has a basic level of understanding on the political system most democratic countries are at least somewhat based on.
Trias Political is the sense that you have the government, the police and the judges. Everybody needs to follow the law, the government makes that law, the judges judge who gets punished and how long and the police enact that punishment. (Very broadly explained).
If the system works like intended or at least close to, then everybody has the same rights and need to follow the same low. You are were talking about “the regime” what regime are you talking about? Generally people mean the 1%er’s or at least the actual rich. Corruption is what allows the inequality between people, but removing the corruption can also cause issues. Just look at the situation in Brazil.
Facial recognition is not something any company can just use in a GDPR country in the way they do in China or in this example. Again, we have rights.
My original comment was more an “if” question about what IF the US actually functioned like a democracy instead of a consuming focussed, angelo-saxton country.
" Sorry, but I assume everybody here at least has a basic level of understanding on the political system"
I certainly do and know the pretty concept of separation of power, if you have trouble with spelling and forming coherent sentences that’s another matter.
When you say "most democratic countries " That means you believe in the solely theoretical concept of democracy, it doesn’t exist.
Or what countries do ypu think have that?
And LOL at using China as a negative example of FR.
England for one is far worse.
And no I do not mean the 1%ers which is a silly concept. I mean the regime/government whose rights and powers far exceed the powers of normal citizens.
Even when the theory/law doesn’t say that in your imaginary democratic state.
“a consuming focussed angelo-saxton country” again, what do you mean?
That is exactly what we in the west call democracies.
It is merely an ultra-capitalist ,so consumer and profit focused concept. The rights are there on paper.
The TLDR about Anglo-Saxon vs Rheinland’s is different cultures in companies and the Anglo-Saxon (mistranslated in my previous comment) mindset is more along the lines of profit and shareholder value optimalisation (you see this a lot in the English-speaking countries) and the Rheinland’s model has more focus for other things like the other stakeholders like the employees. (You see this more in NL and DE, among others). The Rheinland’s model isn’t the greatest, it is slower because there is more to consider than profit maximisation. And pretty sure it is also worse for startups for similar reasons.
The US is also really consuming focussed, they really want you to consume aka buy as much as possible. That’s why big box stores exist, and that is generally how they seem to act.
The modern NL had a good monetary head start due to our past, but in general our system is pretty decent. It will take a while to get something done and the government will fall pretty often, but everybody can get into it, at least in some levels if they get enough votes. In local politics, this isn’t the hardest thing to do if you want it and believe you can make a difference. We have a lot of issues (uneven taxes, people missing out on social security due to faults of others, discrimination, etc.). But I do truly believe that our government, the rule of law and the executive power is at least pretty decent.
Edit: I don’t believe the US is a good democracy in electoral votes and the mainly 2 party system. Then again the US is just to big and more comparable to the EU than to one country.
What I can say is the,name it Rheinland or W-European is less bad than the awful Anglo-countries indeed.
While there was a few decades of good social structures and conditions for workers post WW2 they have been destroying it slowly but surely.
I am Belgian, so I presume you’re a NL neighbour?
I know things have been going down (a lot of you here for free education and bcs buying NL houses are unafordable) and certainly for Germans even under Merkel who made a lot of people work low wage jobs with very little protection, throw away jobs.
And again it’s getting worse.
The NL government is awful and (extreme) right making awful laws.
Like Germany they are among the biggest bootlickers of the genocider state and the US terrorists.
The extreme right hasn’t been able to do much in NL besides postponing getting anything done. Like I said it is slow af to get anything done in NL due to our structure, but at least the extreme right (or extreme left for the matter) will have less option to pass any actual laws.
Yes, we have issues with housing, the tax system and maybe even schooling. The housing thing is mostly because of bureaucracy and because of environment reasons, we haven’t been able to comply with the EU regulations surround the environmental values. The tax system just fucks over a lot of people, either because the system is to complex for people or because it is just badly written. And the whole school thing is partially resolved and partially an issue because people didn’t read that the loan was only 0% interest for the next few years and because people didn’t know what their options are. Again it is a complex system and some people don’t really understand it, but don’t seek help either or they don’t get the correct help.
There have been talks about making it easier to get the bureaucracy done for building more houses, which hopefully passes. The entire tax system will not be redone anytime soon, so people can still have issues with that, but we will wait and see for that.
Compared to most nations, yes the Dutch government is crap at the time of writing, but that is partially because we do not have a government. The previous Schoof government was also a shit show, but that’s because WIlders can just play opposition and besides his extreme right statements he mostly has left leaning once so he contradicts himself half the time. He is also a one man party which doesn’t help. The BBB is just a one statement party and the NSC just fell apart almost instantly, at least Omtzigt tried I gues. He was like the only person that we could vote for last time that understood how the issues with our tax system are making everything worse.