I have no problem respecting them as living, breathing people, but I will not feed their delusion. It is not a physical gender issue, it is a mental health issue - some sort of mental abnormality, like AD(H)D, BPD, Schizophrenia, etc. It is just an extreme form of body dysmorphia (they even call it gender dysmorphia). So why are we being forced to feed this delusion? Why are we mutilating people because of their mental illness? When someone has a mental illness, do we help them hurt themselves or others? No. We give them medication and therapy to try and get their system to function correctly. So why do we not do the same for trans people? It is not the same as being gay/les/bi/etc. That is physical and/or romantic attraction. That is not mental illness. Thinking your body is wrong or that you’re in the wrong body is. We need to stop treating it medically, and start treating it psychologically. Regardless, they are human beings and should be treated as such, with all the rights that go along with it.
Edit: How about instead of downvoting and telling me to fuck off, you answer my questions? I’m serious. I want to know why so many people get hostile when this shit is asked. Is it that hard to accept reality?
Oh, and as someone that’s part of LGBQA, I find it really strange that Trans is included in that since it’s gender and not sexuality. Especially when so many trans people complain about being fetishized.
Don’t really understand why I’m jumping into the garbage fire here, but here we go.
Let’s assume it’s accurate to classify being trans as a mental illness, just for the sake of argument. What if I told you we’ve tried pure psychological treatment and other medical interventions for trans people before - similar, interestingly enough, to L, G, B, and Q people* - and it is simply ineffective? What if I told you, after many years and unnecessarily dead humans, affirmation of identified gender, hormone treatment and surgical intervention were found to be the most effective means available for resolving the suffering inherent in the condition?
Let’s also assume that despite this illness, a trans person is otherwise deemed fit and capable for rational decision making. You’d need evaluation by a psychiatrist to ensure this is true (which generally happens), but if so they have a fundamental right to bodily autonomy. Who are you or I to tell them what they can or cannot do to their bodies? Hell, if you right now wanted to surgically alter your dick to be comically large, if you’re otherwise capable of decision-making (and a third party can attest to this), would you accept someone saying you can’t, assuming you’ve accepted the possible risks?
End of the day, trans people are normal people who happen to have a disconnect between self-image and physical presentation based on hormone makeup and bodily form, and suffer quite a bit due to it. Transitioning is a game changer for most, and allows them to participate more effectively in the wider world without that baggage.
All you need to do is use a preferred pronoun, as community acceptance is a big, if low effort, part of the ‘cure’. If you get it wrong, 99% of the time you’ll be politely corrected. No one is going to crucify you for this.
Now, you can actively choose not to for whatever reason - but all that really does is make you an asshole in the eyes of many. Why? Because you’re reinforcing something that causes another human pain, and what for? What does this accomplish for yourself, the trans person you’re talking to, and your wider community, exactly?
I’m personally shocked this is such a hot button issue. Let other humans be whatever the hell they want to be, if they are competent to make decisions for themselves and ‘changing’ reduces their suffering. The world’s burning, we have more pressing concerns than what our fellow humans have or don’t have in their pants.
*A omitted simply because I don’t know if asexual people were subject to anything like treatment for gay, lesbian or queer people at the hands of psychiatry and medicine more broadly historically. I imagine not, but I could be 100% wrong, and am without question uninformed.
So, I started writing a (very) long answer with lots of detail, to respectfully and honestly answer your questions, from the PoV of a non-trans person that did quite a bit of research, but I stopped.
I just can’t. Neither can I be respectful towards you anymore. Your constant misuse of the term “mental illness” is aggravating, and quite frankly, disturbing. To the point I am wondering if it isn’t, in fact, a cry for help.
Are you mentally ill? Do you need help? It would really seem that you do.
Just as a thought to ponder: when most other people are mentally ill, maybe you should consider seeing a shrink.
I also want to correct a few things, not for the user I’m answering to, but for anyone reading my comment, because I just can’t let such a heap of manure stand uncorrected:
There is no such thing as “physical gender”. Gender is a coercion and domination religious tool.
Being trans, or identifying as a different gender, is a means to escape religious shackles. Escaping religious shackles isn’t “mental illness”.
“Mental abnormalities” are bullshit. We aren’t computers, we are humans, and all different. There is no normal, except maybe the norm that most dimwitted people have no issue with LARPing a bullshit character decided for them, their entire life…
Comparing “AD(H)D, BPD, Schizophrenia, etc” is exactly like comparing “bud light, meth, crack, etc”. I know that on the post-2015-internet people talk mostly out of their asses, but that doesn’t make it ok.
Dysmorphia is a mental disorder. Dysphoria is “acute anxiety”. Again with the mental disorder implication.
Force feeding medication to alleged “mentally sick” people is a nazi method. A humane approach is to provide care. As in talking with them, listening to them, helping realize, overcome traumas, (re)constructing an identity, etc.
Feeling uneasy with one’s body is common, it is caused by the image communicated by society about what a “desirable body” is, and the difference between that image and one’s body.
Medical and psychological care aren’t opposed, nor they are opposable.
Mental disorders are a social construct. Gender is too. That means they are “real” but only insofar as we ascribe meaning to them collectively as a society.
Why do you think The Gay is no longer considered a mental disorder? Do you think we just… discovered something out in the rainforest that proved Gay to be Normal? No, we recognized that it’s a bigoted and harmful way to respond to human behavior.
Also, the reason people don’t want to engage with you is because you’re a giant fucking twat repeating some of the most hateful rhetoric while claiming civility. Go fuck yourself you loathesome piece of garbage. If you really think you’re queer then you really must be one of the most self-hating pieces of shit on Lemmy.
I will answer everyone of your questions if, after, you answer 5 questions of mine. Deal?
Edit: Just took a look through this person’s comment history. There’s no point in having a discussion with them. They’ve lied repeatedly about who and what they are but their entire posting history is tedious. Dude won’t learn, accept criticism or new knowledge. He’s a Fox News viewer. Just block him and move on with your life. He isn’t even worth the oxygen required to type this message.
Lurking more and reading on that is the way to go.
I’d only say that LGB-and-T is this way because these groups of minorities were\are historically targeted by the same sort of bigotry, so they united, shared safe spaces and were supportive of each other. You may say it was dictated by real life more than theoretical arguments. Singling out one part of it for some reason would mean abandoning them and weakening the coalition. There’s a negative probability that after trans people are excluded, other groups won’t be challenged next. You know, not long ago being gay was treated like a mental ilness and there was a conversion therapy to bully them into becoming hetero. It may start to be a thing once again.
So, these rights protect a persons will to be who they want to be, and to do what they want to do. They aim to let a person live their life, unbothered.
Yes. So why are they bothering everyone else with it?
Remember a handful of years ago when all of a sudden everyone and their mother had a gluten allergy? That’s what this shit feels like. Yes, there are a lot of trans people out there. But I have encountered so fucking many, both on- and offline, that are just doing it to feel special.
To feel special, or to feel like themselves, which makes them feel excited and happy in a way they haven’t been in a long time, maybe ever?
People are feeling more and more comfortable to come out and be public with who they are, and that’s a good thing.
If you misinterpret that as a weird fad or trend to feel ✨special✨, then I don’t know what to tell you.
Maybe you should take a closer look at yourself, to figure out why it’s bothering you so much. I’m not trying to insinuate anything here, I don’t know you. Only you can come to a conclusion that makes sense.
But whatever that conclusion is, please find it. Take a step back and evaluate what you feel from a neutral distance.
No, I know the difference between someone being giddy over finding themselves and someone doing it for attention. Unlike the fucking hexbears you see here throwing hate around, I know how to be introspective and self-reflect. I imagine it’s not uncommon for people to wonder what it’s like to be the opposite gender. My wife occasionally asks me what it really feels like to have a cock and balls. Hell, I’ve wondered what it really feels like to have a vagina and clit. But neither of us is going to change genders just to find out. It’s just natural curiosity. Trans people don’t bother me. Being browbeat is what bothers me.
You know what’s curious about this whole exchange?
Your orignal comment clearly went against trans people in general, but as soon as you got some well-deserved pushback, you backpedal and try to specify only disliking a certain type of person, like that makes it any better.
But anyway. Yeah, natural curiosity is perfectly normal. What’s it like to have this or that bodypart? Never boring to think about.
I don’t see what that has to do with anything, though.
While we’re still on the topic of wanting attention, I reckon I gave you enough of it, more than you deserve.
So again, if you know how to self-reflect, do that.
Earlier in this thread you claimed to be part of the LGBT community. Now you’re saying you’re in a heterosexual relationship with your wife. My guess is that you’re “bi” because you kissed a dude in college and didn’t hate the concept. Now you just believe that you’re bisexual and get to involve yourself in the community when you don’t have a place in it.
Even if you are legitimately bi, I’m here to inform you that the community wants nothing to do with you. You’re a small-minded and hateful bigot who keeps spreading lies. Nothing will change your mind because you believe you have full understanding. Immediately you have put yourself in a place of total ignorance on purpose because you’re afraid of your world view being shattered.
Now. I want you to think. Are you angry? Pissed off that I decided to take something about you and crumple it up, showing that it means nothing and using that against you? Awww. That sucks, huh? Then maybe you should stop doing it to other people when you are beyond clueless.
I don’t think it is a delusion at all.
But even if you think of it as a mental health issue. Wouldn’t it be more helpful to treat them in a way that makes them more comfortable? Just basic human decency. At least for me, I would feel uncomfortable or maybe even slightly offended when someone would treat me as a another gender, I don’t feel part of, especially if they know better. (Not LGBTQIA, so I can’t say much about that).
EDIT: removed an accidentally offensive part entirely. Sorry :(
When did I ever say that I do or would treat them poorly? I didn’t. I said I treat them as human beings, same as anyone else. I treat everyone based on one thing, and one thing only: are they an asshole. They want to be called she/her? No problem. They’re an asshole about it? Problem.
Because it isn’t a delusion? Delusions are very specific things in mental health and having a different view of your gender than what society assigns to you isn’t a delusion like say thinking my wife is out to kill me which would be a delusion since I don’t have a wife.
Gender dysmorphia does exist but it isn’t something every transperson experiences. The medical solution to gender dysmorphia is transitioning to your perceived gender.
Basically you are fundamentally mistaken in everything you seem to be convinced of. I think this is a moment for you to ask yourself to what extent are you actually educated in mental health as that seems to be the root of your confusion.
What the fuck did you just fucking say about trans people, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to trans people over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.
I’m inclined to agree. People experiencing gender dysphoria deserve our love and respect, in the same way a person with low self-esteem or anxiety or an eating disorder deserves our love, support and respect.
For example, anorexia is an eating disorder where an individual has a hypersensitivity to the perception of their body, specifically its size weight. Weight bias is another topic for another time, but suffice to say that society has people convinced that they have much more control over their weight than they actually do. People naturally come in all sorts of shapes and sizes, and that’s a good thing! Regardless, some individuals who struggle with anorexia believe that they are “too fat” and will try to limit their food intake in order to lose weight, often to an unhealthy degree.
I’m hoping that the next big social movement is a body acceptance and appreciation kind. The human body is an amazing thing. I hope we can learn how to better help people who experience gender dysphoria in the future and empower individuals struggling with their relationship with their body.
I have no problem respecting them as living, breathing people, but I will not feed their delusion. It is not a physical gender issue, it is a mental health issue - some sort of mental abnormality, like AD(H)D, BPD, Schizophrenia, etc. It is just an extreme form of body dysmorphia (they even call it gender dysmorphia). So why are we being forced to feed this delusion? Why are we mutilating people because of their mental illness? When someone has a mental illness, do we help them hurt themselves or others? No. We give them medication and therapy to try and get their system to function correctly. So why do we not do the same for trans people? It is not the same as being gay/les/bi/etc. That is physical and/or romantic attraction. That is not mental illness. Thinking your body is wrong or that you’re in the wrong body is. We need to stop treating it medically, and start treating it psychologically. Regardless, they are human beings and should be treated as such, with all the rights that go along with it.
Edit: How about instead of downvoting and telling me to fuck off, you answer my questions? I’m serious. I want to know why so many people get hostile when this shit is asked. Is it that hard to accept reality?
Oh, and as someone that’s part of LGBQA, I find it really strange that Trans is included in that since it’s gender and not sexuality. Especially when so many trans people complain about being fetishized.
Oh fuck off
That’s real productive discourse there. It answers all the questions I asked!
Don’t really understand why I’m jumping into the garbage fire here, but here we go.
Let’s assume it’s accurate to classify being trans as a mental illness, just for the sake of argument. What if I told you we’ve tried pure psychological treatment and other medical interventions for trans people before - similar, interestingly enough, to L, G, B, and Q people* - and it is simply ineffective? What if I told you, after many years and unnecessarily dead humans, affirmation of identified gender, hormone treatment and surgical intervention were found to be the most effective means available for resolving the suffering inherent in the condition?
Let’s also assume that despite this illness, a trans person is otherwise deemed fit and capable for rational decision making. You’d need evaluation by a psychiatrist to ensure this is true (which generally happens), but if so they have a fundamental right to bodily autonomy. Who are you or I to tell them what they can or cannot do to their bodies? Hell, if you right now wanted to surgically alter your dick to be comically large, if you’re otherwise capable of decision-making (and a third party can attest to this), would you accept someone saying you can’t, assuming you’ve accepted the possible risks?
End of the day, trans people are normal people who happen to have a disconnect between self-image and physical presentation based on hormone makeup and bodily form, and suffer quite a bit due to it. Transitioning is a game changer for most, and allows them to participate more effectively in the wider world without that baggage.
All you need to do is use a preferred pronoun, as community acceptance is a big, if low effort, part of the ‘cure’. If you get it wrong, 99% of the time you’ll be politely corrected. No one is going to crucify you for this.
Now, you can actively choose not to for whatever reason - but all that really does is make you an asshole in the eyes of many. Why? Because you’re reinforcing something that causes another human pain, and what for? What does this accomplish for yourself, the trans person you’re talking to, and your wider community, exactly?
I’m personally shocked this is such a hot button issue. Let other humans be whatever the hell they want to be, if they are competent to make decisions for themselves and ‘changing’ reduces their suffering. The world’s burning, we have more pressing concerns than what our fellow humans have or don’t have in their pants.
*A omitted simply because I don’t know if asexual people were subject to anything like treatment for gay, lesbian or queer people at the hands of psychiatry and medicine more broadly historically. I imagine not, but I could be 100% wrong, and am without question uninformed.
So, I started writing a (very) long answer with lots of detail, to respectfully and honestly answer your questions, from the PoV of a non-trans person that did quite a bit of research, but I stopped.
I just can’t. Neither can I be respectful towards you anymore. Your constant misuse of the term “mental illness” is aggravating, and quite frankly, disturbing. To the point I am wondering if it isn’t, in fact, a cry for help.
Are you mentally ill? Do you need help? It would really seem that you do.
Just as a thought to ponder: when most other people are mentally ill, maybe you should consider seeing a shrink.
I also want to correct a few things, not for the user I’m answering to, but for anyone reading my comment, because I just can’t let such a heap of manure stand uncorrected:
Mental disorders are a social construct. Gender is too. That means they are “real” but only insofar as we ascribe meaning to them collectively as a society.
Why do you think The Gay is no longer considered a mental disorder? Do you think we just… discovered something out in the rainforest that proved Gay to be Normal? No, we recognized that it’s a bigoted and harmful way to respond to human behavior.
Also, the reason people don’t want to engage with you is because you’re a giant fucking twat repeating some of the most hateful rhetoric while claiming civility. Go fuck yourself you loathesome piece of garbage. If you really think you’re queer then you really must be one of the most self-hating pieces of shit on Lemmy.
I will answer everyone of your questions if, after, you answer 5 questions of mine. Deal?
Edit: Just took a look through this person’s comment history. There’s no point in having a discussion with them. They’ve lied repeatedly about who and what they are but their entire posting history is tedious. Dude won’t learn, accept criticism or new knowledge. He’s a Fox News viewer. Just block him and move on with your life. He isn’t even worth the oxygen required to type this message.
Edit 2: Dude sent me an Angy™ message
Well I got a message for The Liar.
Lurking more and reading on that is the way to go.
I’d only say that LGB-and-T is this way because these groups of minorities were\are historically targeted by the same sort of bigotry, so they united, shared safe spaces and were supportive of each other. You may say it was dictated by real life more than theoretical arguments. Singling out one part of it for some reason would mean abandoning them and weakening the coalition. There’s a negative probability that after trans people are excluded, other groups won’t be challenged next. You know, not long ago being gay was treated like a mental ilness and there was a conversion therapy to bully them into becoming hetero. It may start to be a thing once again.
And what rights are those, according to you? What human rights do you want for yourself?
https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights
Good, you know your sources at least.
So, these rights protect a persons will to be who they want to be, and to do what they want to do. They aim to let a person live their life, unbothered.
Yes?
Yes. So why are they bothering everyone else with it?
Remember a handful of years ago when all of a sudden everyone and their mother had a gluten allergy? That’s what this shit feels like. Yes, there are a lot of trans people out there. But I have encountered so fucking many, both on- and offline, that are just doing it to feel special.
To feel special, or to feel like themselves, which makes them feel excited and happy in a way they haven’t been in a long time, maybe ever?
People are feeling more and more comfortable to come out and be public with who they are, and that’s a good thing.
If you misinterpret that as a weird fad or trend to feel ✨special✨, then I don’t know what to tell you.
Maybe you should take a closer look at yourself, to figure out why it’s bothering you so much. I’m not trying to insinuate anything here, I don’t know you. Only you can come to a conclusion that makes sense.
But whatever that conclusion is, please find it. Take a step back and evaluate what you feel from a neutral distance.
No, I know the difference between someone being giddy over finding themselves and someone doing it for attention. Unlike the fucking hexbears you see here throwing hate around, I know how to be introspective and self-reflect. I imagine it’s not uncommon for people to wonder what it’s like to be the opposite gender. My wife occasionally asks me what it really feels like to have a cock and balls. Hell, I’ve wondered what it really feels like to have a vagina and clit. But neither of us is going to change genders just to find out. It’s just natural curiosity. Trans people don’t bother me. Being browbeat is what bothers me.
You know what’s curious about this whole exchange? Your orignal comment clearly went against trans people in general, but as soon as you got some well-deserved pushback, you backpedal and try to specify only disliking a certain type of person, like that makes it any better.
But anyway. Yeah, natural curiosity is perfectly normal. What’s it like to have this or that bodypart? Never boring to think about.
I don’t see what that has to do with anything, though.
While we’re still on the topic of wanting attention, I reckon I gave you enough of it, more than you deserve.
So again, if you know how to self-reflect, do that.
Earlier in this thread you claimed to be part of the LGBT community. Now you’re saying you’re in a heterosexual relationship with your wife. My guess is that you’re “bi” because you kissed a dude in college and didn’t hate the concept. Now you just believe that you’re bisexual and get to involve yourself in the community when you don’t have a place in it.
Even if you are legitimately bi, I’m here to inform you that the community wants nothing to do with you. You’re a small-minded and hateful bigot who keeps spreading lies. Nothing will change your mind because you believe you have full understanding. Immediately you have put yourself in a place of total ignorance on purpose because you’re afraid of your world view being shattered.
Now. I want you to think. Are you angry? Pissed off that I decided to take something about you and crumple it up, showing that it means nothing and using that against you? Awww. That sucks, huh? Then maybe you should stop doing it to other people when you are beyond clueless.
I don’t think it is a delusion at all. But even if you think of it as a mental health issue. Wouldn’t it be more helpful to treat them in a way that makes them more comfortable? Just basic human decency. At least for me, I would feel uncomfortable or maybe even slightly offended when someone would treat me as a another gender, I don’t feel part of, especially if they know better. (Not LGBTQIA, so I can’t say much about that). EDIT: removed an accidentally offensive part entirely. Sorry :(
When did I ever say that I do or would treat them poorly? I didn’t. I said I treat them as human beings, same as anyone else. I treat everyone based on one thing, and one thing only: are they an asshole. They want to be called she/her? No problem. They’re an asshole about it? Problem.
Because it isn’t a delusion? Delusions are very specific things in mental health and having a different view of your gender than what society assigns to you isn’t a delusion like say thinking my wife is out to kill me which would be a delusion since I don’t have a wife.
Gender dysmorphia does exist but it isn’t something every transperson experiences. The medical solution to gender dysmorphia is transitioning to your perceived gender.
Basically you are fundamentally mistaken in everything you seem to be convinced of. I think this is a moment for you to ask yourself to what extent are you actually educated in mental health as that seems to be the root of your confusion.
What the fuck did you just fucking say about trans people, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to trans people over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.
I’m inclined to agree. People experiencing gender dysphoria deserve our love and respect, in the same way a person with low self-esteem or anxiety or an eating disorder deserves our love, support and respect.
For example, anorexia is an eating disorder where an individual has a hypersensitivity to the perception of their body, specifically its size weight. Weight bias is another topic for another time, but suffice to say that society has people convinced that they have much more control over their weight than they actually do. People naturally come in all sorts of shapes and sizes, and that’s a good thing! Regardless, some individuals who struggle with anorexia believe that they are “too fat” and will try to limit their food intake in order to lose weight, often to an unhealthy degree.
I’m hoping that the next big social movement is a body acceptance and appreciation kind. The human body is an amazing thing. I hope we can learn how to better help people who experience gender dysphoria in the future and empower individuals struggling with their relationship with their body.
I’m glad somebody gets it.
It feels like we’re back to the first shitposts on Facebook in 2012 with people making serious comments
Fuck all the way off.
That’s a wonderful argument. So eloquent.