There’s always a primary. Harris wasn’t selected by primary, but she was clearly - as his vice president - a firm continuation of Biden’s policies. People who voted Biden in the primary weren’t voting to change the party, which is what we’re talking about here; if you want to change the party you need to use the primaries to put actual left candidates on the ticket. That didn’t happen. Whether Harris or Biden was selected by the primary, neither were change candidates.
The primary where nobody except Biden actually ran.
This is exactly part of my criticism, though. Everybody is waiting for someone else to run. That’s why we’ve been stuck voting for the same candidates the party leadership approves of every year; what we’re witnessing now with people like Nixon and el-Sayed is that it’s always been possible to challenge them, but you’ve got to actually run to do it. AOC has mixed reception now, but when she was elected she was on a very progressive platform against a deeply established party candidate and won.
Those are not particularly groomed candidates. AOC was a fucking bartender for crying out loud.
My whole point is the left has, until recently, really sucked at using the primary process to change the party. We see now it’s worth doing. There shouldn’t be unchallenged party leadership picks anywhere, essentially.
There absolutely was a primary… the left didn’t utilize it.
That’s a fair criticism (though you’re overlooking how anger at Trump and disappointment in the Dem establishment contribute to help leftwing politics), but it’s also not the original point. You started out talking about not voting, which is what I was addressing. Not participating is a different conversation entirely, which someone better informed about the nitty gritty of American progressive organization than me should be having.
The conversation moved there though because you said there was no primary; there was, it’s just the left didn’t use it at all and then didn’t show up to the general because they didn’t like the uncontested candidate they chose (or his continuation).
My original point (aside from pointing out it was often the abstainers making moral superiority arguments) was that people who abstain from voting in the general with the idea that withholding their vote will change the party are going about it wrong. The primary is purpose built for this. Even if there was no other candidate in the primary, as in '24, not voting still isn’t going to motivate the party to change. They already did that with Clinton and the next candidate was Biden; while Biden was left of her in some ways, he was clearly another deeply established pick. I’d argue withholding the vote for Clinton did nothing to change the party. I think voting in people like Mamdani, Nixon, and el-Sayed has already done so.
I do understand the argument that allowing the mainstream to shoot themselves in the foot boosts left politics, but I think it’s so diffuse of an effect it isn’t worth taking things on the chin like losing abortion rights that come with that strategy when we have a process right there we can use that’s a lot more effective.
There’s always a primary. Harris wasn’t selected by primary, but she was clearly - as his vice president - a firm continuation of Biden’s policies. People who voted Biden in the primary weren’t voting to change the party, which is what we’re talking about here; if you want to change the party you need to use the primaries to put actual left candidates on the ticket. That didn’t happen. Whether Harris or Biden was selected by the primary, neither were change candidates.
The primary where nobody except Biden actually ran. For all intents and purposes, there was no presidential primary in 2024.
This is exactly part of my criticism, though. Everybody is waiting for someone else to run. That’s why we’ve been stuck voting for the same candidates the party leadership approves of every year; what we’re witnessing now with people like Nixon and el-Sayed is that it’s always been possible to challenge them, but you’ve got to actually run to do it. AOC has mixed reception now, but when she was elected she was on a very progressive platform against a deeply established party candidate and won.
Those are not particularly groomed candidates. AOC was a fucking bartender for crying out loud.
My whole point is the left has, until recently, really sucked at using the primary process to change the party. We see now it’s worth doing. There shouldn’t be unchallenged party leadership picks anywhere, essentially.
There absolutely was a primary… the left didn’t utilize it.
That’s a fair criticism (though you’re overlooking how anger at Trump and disappointment in the Dem establishment contribute to help leftwing politics), but it’s also not the original point. You started out talking about not voting, which is what I was addressing. Not participating is a different conversation entirely, which someone better informed about the nitty gritty of American progressive organization than me should be having.
The conversation moved there though because you said there was no primary; there was, it’s just the left didn’t use it at all and then didn’t show up to the general because they didn’t like the uncontested candidate they chose (or his continuation).
My original point (aside from pointing out it was often the abstainers making moral superiority arguments) was that people who abstain from voting in the general with the idea that withholding their vote will change the party are going about it wrong. The primary is purpose built for this. Even if there was no other candidate in the primary, as in '24, not voting still isn’t going to motivate the party to change. They already did that with Clinton and the next candidate was Biden; while Biden was left of her in some ways, he was clearly another deeply established pick. I’d argue withholding the vote for Clinton did nothing to change the party. I think voting in people like Mamdani, Nixon, and el-Sayed has already done so.
I do understand the argument that allowing the mainstream to shoot themselves in the foot boosts left politics, but I think it’s so diffuse of an effect it isn’t worth taking things on the chin like losing abortion rights that come with that strategy when we have a process right there we can use that’s a lot more effective.