- Developers of Cities: Skylines 2 have noticed a growing toxicity in their community, which is affecting engagement and creativity.
- The CEO of Colossal Order expressed concern about the negative impact of toxicity on the team and the community.
- The developers still encourage helpful criticism from the community but ask for it to be constructive and kind.
Archive link: https://archive.ph/mVaIY
Such a toxic community! I popped over to reddit and saw posts like this
This bug was introduced with the last Patch last year before they went for christmas/new year holidays. They are back since 1 week now and i think and hope they patch it as soon as possible . To be fair its only a Problem early till midgame before you got youre economy half way working, after this point you dont have money Problems at all . I find the ai pathfinding + the cargo System more gamebreaking then the money bug
On steam checking new reviews shows people are unhappy and refunding but there’s hardly any vitriol there either. Moderators are quick but not that quick.
Over on the official forums we see complaints, disappointment and frustration but little in the way of outright hatred.
I’ve yet to run across anything that crosses a line in terms of content I would moderate, however that doesn’t mean moderators didn’t nuke such comments before I could see them.
This looks like the expected reaction to a game being broken on release. The devs are simply shifting blame to the community.
This is a good time to introduce survivorship bias. You are looking at what is still there. Not what has been removed, burried or was done via dms/non public comms.
Or maybe you are right and they are just making up the toxicity remarks.
however that doesn’t mean moderators didn’t nuke such comments before I could see them.
Im well aware of survivorship bias and even addressed it in my comment.
It isn’t the first time devs have shifted blame for their failures to their customers.
“We released a garbage unfinished game that didn’t run properly and wasn’t that good, but it’s the players fault.”
Thank you for the legwork!
Seems more like the managers are shifting blame to both the devs and the community. The people who planned out the development timeline and didn’t provide an adequate amount of time for QA and bugfixes before release are the ones ultimately responsible.
So now they’re telling the paying customers to “stop being toxic to our devs” instead of taking responsibility for their decisions.
The comments in here are really disappointing and a reflection of where this community has gone in general.
Excusing toxic gamer communities, accusing the developer of things for pointing it out? All because the game not in a good state is toxic in itself and really not what this community should be.
This place gets worse every week.
Sorry, I’m having trouble understanding what kind of commentary you were expecting.
Leading up to release as soon as the first reviews pointed out bad performance (see thread), many on Lemmy were bashing CO/Paradox for putting out a beta-stage product as if it was fully released, and Lemmings and people at large were never real fans of being unpaid QA testers for game companies.
Mind you, I love this game, and there’s a lot in there that I can tell CO devs put their heart and soul in. But I see a comment or a post every now and then saying “Lemmy is becoming so toxic, like Reddit” [1] [2] [3] [4] and I’m trying to figure out what exactly has changed, if you can help me out here.
None of that excuses being toxic around the game though.
At most, it excuses just refunding it. And then never interacting with it or the community around it ever again.
I absolutely agree. There’s a line between constructive criticism/feedback and toxicity, some cases are obvious but others I don’t know where exactly to draw it. Those that aren’t interested in the game after being let down may be best advised to refund and move on with their life.
Unfortunately, I don’t know where to strike a good balance to avoid both an "echo chamber where any dissent is extinguished’, and a ‘cesspool of toxic jerks talking ironically’.
Eh, for game-released-in-a-disappointing state there’s always two points for me:
- A personal thing, learn to not buy day 1 or even before. Let other people do that, then avoid ever putting yourself in a frustrated position by simply never buying the broken/unfinished game to begin with. Money - and time - better spent on other hobbies, or well, other games.
- On a specific level, I always feel that just saying “I’m sorry, but because of X, Y and Z I don’t feel like the game is in any shape to be worth the money asked” and then refunding it is the only real proper feedback to go about it. Voice your reasoning, then undo the purchase to withhold the money. That’s more than enough brain space wasted on an unfinished game you’re not enjoying, anyways.
Those that aren’t interested in the game after being let down may be best advised to refund and move on with their life.
It’s okay to hold a company responsible for the sale of a poor product. You don’t have to give them a free pass and just go away.
You can let them know what they did wrong, and if they’re smart, they won’t do the same wrong thing again, the next time they sell their next product.
And any human being on the planet, when they are not listened to, will become upset and rude. The point is for any company to strive for the win-win, and listen to their customers, and not just try to sell them the next bad product and repeat the same bad cycle.
For some reason people seem to experience the most rage, vocalization frustration, etc. when it comes to having their entertainment fucked with (whether pricing, content itself, etc). Companies can cause global recession or market crashes, be responsible for child labor resulting in death and dismemberment, or engage in flat out fraud, but those companies will never bring out the toxicity, death threats, entitlement, and communal anger like a video game or film/tv company that impacts the entertainment of the masses. When people used to think of the most evil company in America back in the early 2010’s, EA was more hated than Bank of America, Wells Fargo, or AIG. That never made sense to me.
For some reason people seem to experience the most rage, vocalization frustration, etc. when it comes to having their entertainment fucked with (whether pricing, content itself, etc).
You should never fuck around with the plebs and their ‘bread and circuses’, especially if your government is not doing well.
Companies can cause global recession or market crashes … or engage in flat out fraud, but those companies will never bring out the toxicity, death threats, entitlement, and communal anger
People are pissed off at inflation, the general cost of everything (including AAA games), laws and punishments not being applied evenly/fairly, etc., these days.
I think the latter part of your comment is a bit hyperbolic (especially part of your comment that I edited out when quoting it in my response).
The defunct Consumerist used to run a poll. https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2013/04/09/ea-voted-worst-company-in-america-again/?sh=2dc357397aeb . It was always strange how EA beat out the companies that I think do more harm to society for several years. For some reason it’s entertainment companies that draw a lot of vocal ire from consumers, despite financial institutions, pharma, telecoms, oil, factory farms, etc. doing more explicit and literal harm.
For sure. I might have weasel-worded my comment with “may be best advised” as it’s not all cases.
Toxicity is unhealthy, but I am optimistic it will become less so once CO and Paradox follow through on their promises. The two big ones being 1. actually being able to play the game on consoles and modest hardware and 2. mods
Toxic” is different to everyone though. That’s why these comment sections always go in circles. To some people saying “paradox are crooks and they have no respect for us and they’re ripping us off by using us as beta testers,” is toxic to some. And to others it is seen as constructive criticism. So when someone says “this community is toxic”. I don’t really know what they’re saying. “Toxic” has just become a lazy buzz word that makes discussing this kind of thing pointless.
For me it’s the over representation of self described communists that take over every thread to poetically or unpoetically just keep saying capitalism=bad and then do shit like justify bad behavior because capitalism=bad or pretend to care about making sure employees get paid while advocating for piracy of everything being justified.
So a difference of political opinion = toxic? Got it.
I have no problem discussing political opinions. I hate how every thread gets co opted by un critical hot takes for the circle jerk of up votes. It’s frustrating that any post about digital media has the top comments all saying “Yarrrr, time to sail the high sees.” Or anytime there’s any news about a corporation, the top comment seems to be “fuck capitalism and those greedy greedy share holders.” Those kinds of comments aren’t critical, aren’t contributing to any meaningful conversation. On reddit I think it succeeded when you had communities of enthusiasts having conversations about the thing they are enthusiastic about. Lemmy seems to have a lot more people enthusiastic about a political position just try to spread that on any and all communities.
I’m expecting this community not to say that a company deserves a toxic community and that being toxic is a totally normal and expected thing.
A few months ago, even , this was a place where people would talk about the game news and not revel in your average Gamer toxicity.
Now it’s just, I guess, reddit, but worse because the toxic voices are louder in a smaller echo chamber. The people who don’t ascribe to this kind of thing leave. The toxic people are all that is left.
Now it’s just, I guess, reddit, but worse because the toxic voices are louder in a smaller echo chamber.
Yeah I noticed that, too. All of Lemmy in fact. It feels like engagement is up, but only in select echo chambers of being angry about something.
I understand your point, and agree that you have received negative replies that prove this community accepts a level of toxicity that may not have been there before. (To me it feels like the same level, but perhaps I’ve just ignored it or become numb to it)
I encourage people to engage in these topics with a level head but there will be exceptions at times.
https://eev.ee/blog/2016/07/22/on-a-technicality/
Reading the second half of this comments reminded me of this long read I was introduced to over in Beehaw.org (the evaporative cooling section). Left unchecked, only the jerks will be left and the nice people give up and leave. If a slower, nicer place for discussion is what you’re looking for, Beehaw was where I found that vibe the most.
Its the internet though. I don’t know of a place on the internet where there’s no toxicity.
I’ve played CS2 for weeks. Days of hours. Have completely enjoyed it.
It’s not finished and they’re honest about that. Also, comparisons to CS in it’s finished state (easy to do unconsciously) overlook just how many DLCs it took to get to full maturity.
I enjoy the game and have no regrets for buying. I don’t feel deceived since I could have asked for as refund.
I think some of this is a specific kind of FOMO. Fear of missing out (on what could have been). I’m hoping they do enough to fix the parenthetical.
Edit to add: my computer has great specs for late 2020. It’s not top of the line, but it has everything I thought it would need, CPU, RAM, GPU. That may impact my experience.
The game was unplayable on my 5 year old laptop. But it’s not really a gaming rig anyhow…
Regarding specs:
Even youtube creators supposedly had trouble (at times) running it at a consistent framerate.Not that I had it when I bought it…It ran fine at 1440p ultra wide and (afaik) medium/high settings.
Counter strike 2
It’s becoming Reddit. Which is what we wanted last year? I know what you mean though. There is a difference between now and then with our community. Probably related to user count?
Slowly becoming the reddit replacement we don’t deserve.
The comments in here are really disappointing and a reflection of what this community has become, corporate bootlickers.
Excusing companies scamming customers because gamers dared to point out the scam? All because the companies quarterly profits weren’t up enough, is a really toxic state and not what this community should be.
lol.
There was no scam. They were upfront about the issues before release.
Stating facts is not bootlicking. It’s just being a mature, fair adult about things.
Can you link any prerelease announcements that include the bugs and performance issues?
This vid covers an assortment of the issues, where things stood, and reaction to the news.
Respected YouTuber does the research. .
That was days before the release and in response to an announcement weeks prior.
Toxicity in our cities, in our Cities (Skylines 2 community)
You, what do you own the world? How do you own disorder, disorder?
*how do you own colossal order, colossal order
well yeah, they are trying to sell a game that looks straight up unfinished, like it was a masterpiece.
entitled much? did they expect praise?
The statement still asks for criticism but asks for it to be polite.
You can say something is bad without sounding like an asshole.
People don’t tend to be polite when they buy a dodgy product of any kind, why would video games be different?
There’s no reason to treat the developers like shit though.
Gamers don’t need to act like entitled bitches about everything. Especially when they continue to play the game. Provide feedback, leave a review, and move on. There’s no excuse for rudeness.
Can you tell me a single industry where you treat customers like shit and not get abuse in return?
People are acting like angry reviews are somehow unwarranted when customers are being sold defective products.
What about a single other industry where people make 8 hour long essays shitting on one specific person and get hundreds of thousands of views?
You’re not familiar with the car and motorcycle industries are you?
People spend years tearing into companies over vehicles, spending hundreds or thousands of hours meticulously detailing every engineering problem, real or imagined, and shitting on anyone who disagrees.
The only difference is that car and motorcycle companies generally shield their employees from criticism to a much greater degree.
You don’t usually see the engineers names in a credit screen in your car. Those engineers aren’t generally seen shit posting on twitter about how entitled the customers are because that would get them sacked.
No, didn’t know about that.
I don’t think another industry having the same problem makes this one more palatable though.
Professional sports leagues are another example. Put a shit product on the field, you’re going to get shit back from the fans. Every now and then a young star player comes up (especially in American football) that received adulation for years at the college level and suddenly gets faced with jeers. They react like Colossal Order does here and–eventually–learn that they are picking a fight against collective emotional response that they are never going to win.
CO is learning that lesson now. While they can and should take actions against those that cross the line (death threats, etc.), there’s not much in the way of effective corrective action here. It’s all on them. They can a) put out a better product, b) hire community managers with thicker skin that can better assuage their fans, or c) withdraw from community interaction. Most that can’t handle it pick the third option.
Exactly.
Shouldn’t expect toxicity.
“In the long run, this will really hurt not only the mood and the happiness of community members but also discourage creativity and modding, something we would be very sad to see.”
jkjk I know it’s coming and I love Cities Skylines 2 even in the state it’s in, but people are understandably impatient and upset at waiting for promised features to arrive.
Have they even given a timeframe for when mods will release because I haven’t seen them say anything about it since launch, I’m assuming because another team is developing it.
Per CO’s January 15th word of the week:
As we have stated earlier, there is no higher priority than releasing the modding support for the game. The Editor UI is expected to be ready enough for the closed beta in a few weeks. There is an issue with the asset import still that we are hard at work solving. If the issue is not resolved in a reasonable time we’ll consider releasing the editor without the ability to import custom assets and just have the maps and code modding present. Whichever the resolution for the modding support is, we can’t wait to see your creations!
closed beta in a few weeks, full release probably sometime thereafter.
At this point, I’m mad they’re about to launch the DLC for every damn feature. Everyone should avoid being toxic, but Paradox/Colossal Order aren’t blameless here. They shipped the game half-finished, and are gonna screw you out of your money. Just go back to the first Skylines.
Don’t be mad, just wait to buy it till they offer a nice package deal (do we have a patient gamers community here?). If enough users do that, they hopefully change their business model.
Overall I also think that paid add-ons are quite okay, if they actually add new stuff and if the base game is a finished product in itself. Ensures that developers continue to take care of the game without subscriptions and leads to games that one can play for a decade (like CK2). But yeah, Paradox overdoes this.
My understanding is that there are performance problems too though. But I haven’t kept up with it too closely.
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Listen the game isn’t perfect and did have a rough launch, but they’re actively working on fixing and improving it. I’ve had 8+ hour straight binges of gameplay on it and enjoy it plenty. Is it completely what I hoped for? Not exactly, and the game could use more optimization but I still very much enjoy it, personally. It’s more enjoyable to me so far than the first game, especially with the new tools and features they’ve added.
Toxicity is so dumb with g*mers, just refund and leave an honest review then move on with your lives people, geez.
I didn’t even think it was all that rough of a launch
No console launch, no mod management, and optimization issues.
Two out of three weren’t expected. Maybe all three.
That said, I like CS2 more than the original. I miss the added functions I got from some of the DLC (industries, airports), but I’m sure they won’t pass up the opportunity to do it all over again and make money doing so. That is, provided there is a large enough community to buy DLCs.
People love/loved CS. Whole TY channels grew up for just that one game. Those channels are branching out more now and that causes me concern.
I don’t blame the devs. I wish they’d waited to launch, but I can also understand the companies need money to function.
We’re in a critical time and I know the devs put a lot of heart into the game. If I was their leader, I’d be sympathetic too. Doesn’t mean I’m seeing toxicity - just not the reception the devs may have expected after all that hype.
This is happening everywhere in gaming, people could be critical without being complete assholes, it’s getting out of hand.
On one hand people can be jerks, on the other hand there definetaly is a trend of releasing broken games with a ‘patch it later’ mentality.
Its kind of hard to take a side because people being assholes isn’t the solution but remaining civil is just going to encourage the behaviour and we’ll get even more broken releases.
That’s true but, at the end of the day, it’s developers who have no control over how a game is released getting shat on and harrassed instead of the publishers actually responsible for it.
Then don’t buy games on release. There’s no rush. I’ve been pretty satisfied just buying games I want on sale and have still built up quite the backlog mainly getting titles at 75%+ off. No Man’s sky and subnautica were both just awesome games for me because the period where they were unfinished and disappointing was long past by the time I tried them.
And in my experience, toxicity doesn’t really encourage improving something so much as it encourages stopping to care how the toxic person feels about anything at all. Sometimes that caring even goes negative and the target of the toxicity can take pleasure in how much grief they’ve caused the person spewing out the vitriol.
Toxicity is for burning bridges, not encouraging better behaviour.
People who have studied game theory will know that a corporation’s bad behavior needs to be met with bad behavior, or they will simply keep taking advantage of consumers. Low level employees are innocent, but executives are willingly making bad decisions with the sole interest of lining their pockets.
Edit Lol I guess instead of learning basic game theory you can just downvote and continue your ignorance. Surely that won’t make the problem worse.
Public gaming is toxic by default. We’re not talking one person playing with their friend group, we’re talking gaming in the wild. Yeah, there’s gonna be exceptions, but the vast majority is mockery, lashing out, trolling, superiority and the like. I’ve disabled in game chats and voice for more than a decade because I’m sick of the BS.
So it’s not “happening” as a change, this is its normal state.
It does keep getting worse though, Starfield’s started a fire that keeps raging on 4 months later.
A game being called “literally unplayable” has been around since devs allowed early/beta access. Starfield is just the latest victim. No Man’s Sky is easily one of the worst, but they over-promised and far, far under-delivered.
Maybe if devs stopped talking their games up, making promises they don’t keep, showing gameplay that never makes it into the release version and then releasing buggy, broken junk they might stop receiving so much justifiable backlash.
I don’t assume making games is easy. However, devs constantly bowing to financial pressures in order to build hype, release unfinished games, and cut features is the real problem.
Developers don’t choose how their games are marketed, that’s also the publishers.
I use devs to generically describe the company that produces the game, markets it, and sells it. You are correct.
Ah, that’s fine then, I misunderstood.
Video game studios are not respecting players. It fuels hate speech. Most social media are also optimized for hateful speech because it increases engagement.
What I don’t understand is the trolls who hate on stuff forever. Like cyberpunk 2077 for example still has haters who miss absolutely no occasion to shit on the game.
Upper management is always full of the slimiest people out there, I just don’t think that justifies the hate towards devs who just want to make a game and already have to put up with said upper management.
That’s basic relationship stuff : game studios broke player trust. It’s up to them to win it back.
Now different people react differently to the break of trust. Some do react poorly to it. But I won’t blame people, and I won’t sympathise with studios I don’t already trust.
Again, studios are just a bunch of people passionate to make cool games except for cases like The Day Before.
And sometimes they’re also assholes that disrespect players. Sometimes they’re too leniant and think a buggy mess is a game worth releasing. That’s disrespect. Being small is not an excuse to release an alpha version.
What you say actually mixes two quite distinct things, I feel:
Video game studios are not respecting players. It fuels hate speech.
I disagree with this, and quite harshly so. Independent of what companies do, and some of the releases very much fit the “not respecting” part, that’s not in any way, shape or form an excuse to be abuse to some poor support or outreach rep who has to read your shit. They’re just doing their job, they haven’t even gotten to the playing-a-video-game-in-my-leisure-time part of the day yet.
Most social media are also optimized for hateful speech because it increases engagement.
That is however quite true, and leads to an extreme echo chamber enforcing and reinforcing negative and abuse comments. It gets clicks, which is ad impressions, so it gets lifted to the top.
I’m not saying the behaviour of the game studios justify people hate. I’m saying it fuels it.
The relationship between a game company and a player base is not a equal one. And I’m not saying all game studios are responsible, but you only need enough of them to behave poorly for people to grow defiance for all of them.
And in this, it’s up to the developers to win back players trust, not to players to forgive game dev blindly.
I mean yeah, they haven’t released it on Mac yet. Boo!
At the very least, they could’ve made it available on the Xbox. It yes, very disappointing.
You, what do you own the world? How do you own disorder? Disorder!
Must get rid of toxic in community
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