Sofia Orr is likely to become the first woman since then to be jailed for refusing military service, but believes it is ‘wrong to take children and make them into soldiers’
And she’s right.
Wow straight to jail with her!
Any government/country is actually just a kind of service (you pay taxes and get different goods from it). Every person should have the right to choose the provider of this service (change the country) or completely refrain from it. It means that mandatory military service is no less than slavery. People are not guilty for being born in a country they don’t want to fight for (or that they don’t want to fight at all)
You largely can choose the provider of this service, but they will also choose you (or not).
And you can not refrain from the service while being in the community of those that don’t refrain. In practice there are (nearly) no places where the community as a whole chooses to refrain.If you’re in a country with compulsory military service, make yourself interesting for other countries and leave.
You largely can choose the provider of this service,
Really? I’m from the Middle East, took me fucking ages to “change the provider”.
If you’re in a country with compulsory military service, make yourself interesting for other countries and leave.
Literally not an option for 99% of people.
Yes, most people are not interesting. True for Emi/Imi-gration as well as dating. And in both cases it’s tough to hear.
… so this isn’t really a viable solution.
Well then one largely can’t choose, can one.
unless you’re a US citizen which requires the extra step of completely renouncing your US citizenship or continue paying US taxes (and therefore supporting the military mostly lol) regardless of where you may live in the world
It’s complicated, but not necessarily. The US has a lot of agreements with other countries for you to avoid having to pay taxes for both countries. If you’re living in a country with one of those agreements, you can file with the US to claim you’ve paid taxes to the foreign government.
And the US doesn’t force you to renounce your citizenship, it’s generally other countries that don’t allow dual citizenship; Germany and Denmark for example don’t allow it.
is there something you can point me to that confirms this? i’m not saying you’re wrong but my quick google search said the opposite.
I was wrong about Denmark citizenship, but look here for an explanation of the tax treaties and the FEIE.
And the US doesn’t force you to renounce your citizenship
It does if you don’t want to continue paying US taxes no matter where you live and work.
other countries that don’t allow dual citizenship; Germany and Denmark for example don’t allow it.
I don’t know about Germany, but that hasn’t been true of Denmark for nearly a decade.
I get the feeling that your source is located somewhere between your spine and the backs of your thighs.
I was wrong about Denmark. I did some research last year and apparently what I found was wrong.
But the US has Tax treaties, the FEIE, and the Foreign Tax Credit programs for expats to avoid paying US tax when overseas. But you still need to file with the US.
See here:
Thanks for the clarification!
The current situation is not the best in my opinion. I think people who don’t agree with it (like me) should try to change it if possible (peaceful ways are always preferred) instead of adapting to the situation. Though everyone has the right not to fight and not to do anything at all. I’m not saying that fighting the regime you don’t like is mandatory
Eh… Close, but they are also a concentration social power (and fundamentally deferred violence), and rights only really exist in the context of social power. You can try and establish your own personal sovereignty but you can be sure that any state that cares to will test that. Sometimes the most you can do is accept that it is able to imprison you or go down fighting, and if you are committed to pacifism the latter is a harder option.
Fighting is the last option. It’s needed when a state becomes usurpated and (unpopular opinion) when the current situation creates an objective high risk for the society or its part and waiting for the election is not really an option (such risk can be exhibited as genocide, severe discrimination or just as creation of a good environment for spreading aggressive ideas. All are dangerous). I think the best thing to do in a democratic society is trying to promote ideas which you think are right so people who agree can join you and you all can have a bigger influence on elections and people who aren’t sure about their views can also find yours appealing. Leave the enforcement part for people who really know what they’re doing and who you’re sure are doing it for the higher good
No don’t like this. Countries aren’t corporations. Last time we tried that it was called fascism.
Idk much about fascism but I don’t think my views are close to it. Afaik it relies on patriotism and nationalities and similar kind of stuff. I don’t believe in any of that. But I do believe that my English is not the best so it can be easy to misunderstand what I say
Fascism is the merging of the corporation and the state. Ignore the bullshit redefinition the US pulled out of their ass so that it wouldn’t apply to themselves. Kind of like how liberalism was redefined from class collaboration (what fascism is about) to being about progressivism.
Corporations should never control any states. It is what an evil corporation is. What I meant is that ultimately a government is a service because it has basically the same idea and that it must never force anyone to obey it. Laws can and should exist (it’s one of the important government’s services after all) but military service is a different thing
You’re either for a country or you’re not. It’s really that simple.
It’s not, mister. It’s really not. People like you make this world more aggressive. I’m not trying to fight you though. And I don’t have the energy or even the knowledge to explain. Nothing is simple. Hopefully at some point you will understand it. Though it probably would be nice to have this world simplified a little ngl
Must be so easy to be on the side of evil these days. You don’t even need to do anything and you win.
KEEP IT UP!
The Israeli prison system is already overflowing because of the war. Make it flow over even worse.
As of last week, the number of prisoners in Israeli jails numbered some 19,372, an increase of over 3,000 since October and significantly more than the maximum prison population of 14,500 mandated by law.
(I’m quoting Times of Israel but I don’t want to link them in any form, you can find that if you want to.)
Here’s another figured from them
Amid the war in the Gaza Strip, the IDF has called up a total of 287,000 reservists
The total prison capacity is 14.500, and it’s already overflowing.
Even if every 50th IDF reservist or conscript refuses to go, it’s still 6000 people more for them to deal with. If every tenth conscript/reservist refused, it’d be twice the total prison capacity on top of the already problematically overflowing prisons.
Swamp the system.
So even a tiny majority refusing to go and instead choosing prison over participating in genocide can have a huge impact, indirectly.
We gotta admit that a large portion of the IDF are just a bunch of indoctrinated teens who had no choice. They are victims of Israel too.
I’m surprised she’s the first woman to be jailed for this… really thought this was more common than that. I would totally do months of even a couple of years of prison or whatever just so not to kill X number of civilian men, women, and children on Gaza… simply because that’s not something I’d be able to live with.
You are leaving out the indoctrination. If you truly despise the enemy and believe you are divinely entitled to do as you please, that helps a lot in not feeling guilt about it.
Edit: I don’t mean he doesn’t realize they are being indoctrinated, he leaves it out of his empathizing if put in that position.
just a bunch of indoctrinated teens
But yes, I absolutely agree.
See the edit
Ah, I understand.
You’re right, choosing prison over killing innocent civilians requires first understanding what is going on, something which indoctrination is meant to hinder. I think what I meant to say is that it’s weird not more people have been able to escape this indoctrination and choose prison instead of service. Then again, Israel has been successful at this genocide thanks to their incredible propaganda machine, so I shouldn’t underestimate the effect it has on people.
Agreed, i just think it is very difficult for us comparatively free thinking westerners with access to largely uncensored information and freedom of thought, looking at the situation from the outside. I think we often can’t really empathize with how pervasive a concerted propaganda effort like that must be, being literally raised on the kool-aid.
Which isn’t to say we are not indoctrinated ourselves, perhaps more low key
us comparatively free thinking westerners
For myself, I grew up with the Islam kool-aid in the Middle East in an Islam-majority country and though the journey was troublesome, I very much managed in the end to shed religion and tradition off my shoulders and unlearn all the crap I was indoctrinated to believe in, including layers of anti-semitism. I felt like I lived in a similar kind of propaganda machine and managed to find my way out. If I can do it, hopefully, anyone can do it given the right opportunities, support, and time.
There’s probably more people not taking it but they don’t want the public to know
You might be right. I found this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omer_Goldman
I see what you’re going for but you wouldn’t have that prospective if you’ve seen even a fraction of what the IDF has been putting out.
They’re in on the evil, and they revel in it.
She has actual courage. Just simply doing what you’re told without question makes you as weak as the rest.
Based. Maybe she can get political asylum from Fascism.
Refusing to be complicit in Genocide? Believe it or not, Jail.
I mean there are good arguments both for and against compulsory military service, but only in countries that aren’t prosecuting a war of genocide. Israel can go get fucked and so can America for propping it up. In fact it’s more proper to lay the blame at America’s feet than even Israels, since they’ve been “the adult in the room” (the one with the guns) who has been enabling it.
I mean there are good arguments both for and against compulsory military service
Are there good arguments for it? If it’s compulsory, maybe you need to run your country differently so people feel its worth voluntarily defending. And/Or you can recruit heavily in areas where folks are disadvantaged and have few options, dangling education in front of them in exchange for being willing to kill or die for you.
The funny thing about knowing 18 year olds at 50+ vs being 18 years old is you can see the children these kids still are. Allowing them to join? OK. Forcing them to murder for you? As a veteran who joined at 19, no.
Or you can recruit heavily in areas where folks are disadvantaged and have few options, dangling education in front of them in exchange for being willing to kill or die for you.
This is absolutely what we do in the U.S. and it’s abhorrent.
I guess what I want is for nobody to be so desperate for their basic needs that they feel compelled to kill and die in war.
And if we had a country that cared for all of its citizens and didn’t start wars of aggression, maybe more people would want to enlist as they have real values to protect and have a reasonable expectation that they won’t be committing atrocities?
Honestly not a criticism of you or your comment. Lot’s of people are advocating for the same thing; You just said it plainly.
…Anyway, this is all terrible and we absolutely can do better, starting with building community locally, mutual aid, protesting, and listening to marginalized and oppressed people’s.
This is absolutely what we do in the U.S. and it’s abhorrent.
I’m definitely aware and agree with all your points.
Honestly not a criticism of you or your comment. Lot’s of people are advocating for the same thing; You just said it plainly.
No worries, I did it somewhat sardonically. I don’t like that arrangement much more than compulsion. These are people we don’t trust to drink responsibly for three more years, but we tell ourselves it’s fair to expect them to make a mature, rational decision to sign their lives away for a period of time (or forever) with no life experience whatsoever.
Conscription against the nazis invading the USSR in a war of extermination
Ok, but barring corner cases…
Edit - and arguably it’s still not a “good” idea - that’s something you do because you feel there’s no other choice at that point. It solves the short term problem, doesn’t strike me as healthy for the populace in a long term way.
It is healthy for the populace in the sense that only 26 million people die instead of the vast majority of a population of 150 million, which would have happened without conscription.
It is justified when the war is an existential threat to the people of an area, not of the state ruling the area.
I don’t disagree at all, just saying it’s not a way to keep your standing army populated that I can agree with. I don’t think this is at odds with your clarification, but if I’m missing your point please don’t hesitate to reel me in.
I think it works well in Switzerland.
thetimes are a murdock owned news network.
Even a broken clock is right at least once a day.
Or said plainly: while you can’t depend on any Murdoch publication to get it right all or even most of the time, you can’t depend on it getting it wrong every time either. Though The Sun is very close to achieving the latter.
When the world is run by criminals, being lawful is made a crime.
Hasn’t it always been young people who make the bulk of the armies?
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Sorry. Choose your governments carefully.
Well, she’s certainly part of a minority. The majority of the political parties in Israel are extremely right-wing, not much choice there.
I’d be happier probably dying for a cause I hate fir a couple of years rather than rotting in a military prison for the rest of eternity.
Yeah and killing other people? Sure thing buddy.
Israelis have had conscription for years.
Suddenly she sees what the fuck is going on when some skin is required to play the game.
IDF Females don’t get put in combat roles.
She could have nodded her head and be complicit in Genocide behind a desk.
But she’d rather be in Prison than do the Holocaust.
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The western world isn’t ready for the active complicity conversation. Yes if you’re put in a situation where you’re the bad guy, you should absolutely do everything you can to disrupt it, even if it means you die in the process. To go along for your own survival is complicity.
Maybe don’t outright KYS but if even a 10th of the population acted like this evil flat out wouldn’t be able to get a foothold in society. Failing miserably and immediately dying as a direct result is still a greater good on the world than actively partaking in their crimes, and if you don’t agree there’s a guy from a nazi instance just below me you can give your upvote to instead.
