The comments are quite saddening, and also quite worrying.
This isn’t to put women’s issues down, but men have problems too. There’s a reason why young men turn to these grifters and get manipulated by them.
Even above all of that, assuming you don’t agree, it’s a problem. We’re building up generations of uneducated and toxic men led by these role models. We can’t just shrug that off and say it’s not our issue, because at some point it is going to be our issue.
This is a problem that I really feel like gets no attention.
With all the focus on women’s rights, young men feel neglected. And modern feminism does imply that men can’t really talk about issues because that comes from a place of privilege.
This isn’t the only time it happened. Male victims of sexual harassment and assault were pretty much entirely shut out of #MeToo.
So, young men feel marginalized and they will listen to whoever makes sense.
And modern feminism does imply that men can’t really talk about issues because that comes from a place of privilege.
I mean yeah there are shitty feminists like there are shitty types of all people but no most modern movements of feminism that are considered seriously by academics and people concerned with gender, sexuality and politics absolutely DO not imply men can’t talk about issues.
Intersectional Feminism isn’t just about empowering women, it’s about creating structures that defend and empower everybody including women.
A feminist might be exhausted from toxic masculinity and the power imbalances of men vs women in society and in the moment not respond well to you bringing up issues with men, but feminists definitely by and large do care about men and the issues they face because at the end of the day they are just the flip side of the problems women face.
It’s all part of the same problem and the only way to fix it is to take better care of each other, which includes men, it includes everyone.
I think the point I’m trying to make is that DEI seems to have forgotten the cis white male.
Yeah, we’ve been privileged forever…and obviously equality feels like oppression to the priveleged…but at the same time I know I can find employee groups for every racial group, gender, and sexuality…except for the white cis male. To the other posters point, the same is true on college campuses. The only space left is frats, and that tends to attract toxic personalities.
At some point, everyone need to be able to feel they are in a comfortable space with peers. That is, ultimately, the whole idea of DEI. And it is a very noble idea. But in the process, we’ve co-edified all of the old-boys-groups and made it offensive to want to form a new one.
absolutely DO not imply men can’t talk about issues.
That’s so ridiculously false. Every college campus in America has a women’s only space now. How many of them have a men’s only space that hasn’t been coopted by the women’s studies department?
The only men’s spaces left in academia are frats…which is the bastion of al the things this post is complaining about.
And hell…that’s the core of this issue. If regular non toxic alpha wannabes want to talk about an issue…there’s simply no place to do it because the feminists have driven those discussions to the dark dank corners of toxic hell holes of society.
If regular non toxic alpha wannabes want to talk about an issue…there’s simply no place to do it because the feminists have driven those discussions to the dark dank corners of toxic hell holes of society.
Cite your sources if you want to make huge lazy generalizations that are honestly insulting to the immense amount of violence and structural exclusion women have faced down to get to the imperfect state of women’s equality.
Cite your sources it is a bunch of angry feminist activists shouting down men everywhere just trying to talk about why they are hurt.
Show me your sources, and a couple of anecdotes don’t count, show me evidence this is happening systematically.
edit love it, downvote me without giving any evidence that.
modern feminism does imply that men can’t really talk about issues?
not to be all “source?” but — source?
This statement feels full of selection bias. Let’s assume Angela Davis literally said this, does that mean Judith Butler agrees?
But I imagine it’s more that this was said by a semi-anonymous rage bait account on a social media platform.
That’s not to say such things aren’t hurtful - they are - but in the same way FirstnameBunchOfNumbers on Twitter says stupid shit all the time - eg all unions are all always bad and are literally communism - that doesn’t speak for the entirety of tradespeoples.
I’d much rather actually discuss the points raised. I was interested to discuss whether the person I was replying to (might be you - can’t tell on mobile) thought that what they said reflected all feminist thought, and whether that was current, new, or had always been there since Wollstonecraft etc
Do you really want to go into the difference between the “notallmen” epithet and the concept that because someone accuses a group of something does not mean that they are guilty of it nor does it mean that group is a monolith? The conversation seems fairly straightforward and doesn’t really need elaborating on. But I guess if you genuinely did have questions about the difference between “notallmen” and “accusing a group of something they didn’t do” I’d be willing to attempt to answer reasonable questions on the topic.
No, I am not the person you responded to, I just thought it was funny because all I could think of reading your comment was how many parallels it had to the “not all men” saying.
But to be more serious, I don’t think you can point to any individual saying men can’t discuss these topics, but there is a sentiment that has been felt for a long while. Listen to Bo Burnham’s Inside and he jokes about being a white guy trying to be supportive but not really being sure how without coming off as a “white savior.” A couple decades ago Ben Folds expressed frustration at not feeling allowed to express his personal problems to some degree in Rockin the Suburbs, and while that was more aimed at complaining from a place of privilege I think it captures a similar feeling the person you responded to expressed.
I think it’s difficult for a lot of men, especially younger ones, to express that kind of feeling without being (or feeling like they are being) rejected for having those feelings because they are the ones with the privilege. Or they may bottle up those feelings in an unhealthy manner out of guilt for potentially distracting from those with bigger issues. And those can open the door to them rejecting feminism in general so that they can express those feelings. People like Andrew Tate are able to take advantage of that.
I didn’t say men can’t discuss issues, (i wasnt even saying whether they should) I’m saying that for any sensible, reasonable definition of what “modern feminism” is (what does that even mean?), there is no correlation to “men can’t discuss these things,” and no prominent, published authors, scholars or journalists are saying such things - outside of tabloids, looking to score rage clicks.
Woman here. (Sorry, don’t typically announce my gender, but relevant to the comment if someone else reads it.)
Tbh I wish the conversation were more positive. I ain’t no expert cuz I’m struggling with my own advice, but I’d recommend: Try to get a decent job, work on your mental health, take care of yourself, build friendships, try to get in a decent place financially, and maintain a healthy schedule, environment, and diet. Be the kind of person you’d want to date. And treat women like men for the most part. Most people I know in relationships met at work, school, church, dating apps, or through friends / common interests.
But the reason I’m not on the dating market myself is cuz I’m a mess of a human being who doesn’t want to be trapped in a codependent relationship. Dating doesn’t sound appealing at all when I have so many problems I need to work through first. I’ve seen what happens when people try to fix their problems with relationships; it usually results in more problems.
Thank you, sorry if I gave off the wrong impression. I actually said it as I was previously in a situation where I was, but I started focusing on myself (taking advice similar to yours) and it actually does help! Previously I was flat out scared of talking to women. I thought even looking at someone could be creepy/harassing.
Turns out just talking to someone and then asking if they’d like to go out for food or something in a respectful manner after a conversation isn’t creepy and actually seems to invoke a positive reaction from them sometimes? Who would have known!
I find it telling that the meme is about men following idiotic “influencers” and so many people here are like “I identify with that man on the bike but my problems are unrelated”
I wouldn’t say identify. Pretty sure many of us don’t follow Andrew Tate or influencers in general. We’re showing empathy for the general situation. Sorry it bothered you.
The comments are quite saddening, and also quite worrying.
This isn’t to put women’s issues down, but men have problems too. There’s a reason why young men turn to these grifters and get manipulated by them.
Even above all of that, assuming you don’t agree, it’s a problem. We’re building up generations of uneducated and toxic men led by these role models. We can’t just shrug that off and say it’s not our issue, because at some point it is going to be our issue.
This is a problem that I really feel like gets no attention.
With all the focus on women’s rights, young men feel neglected. And modern feminism does imply that men can’t really talk about issues because that comes from a place of privilege.
This isn’t the only time it happened. Male victims of sexual harassment and assault were pretty much entirely shut out of #MeToo.
So, young men feel marginalized and they will listen to whoever makes sense.
I mean yeah there are shitty feminists like there are shitty types of all people but no most modern movements of feminism that are considered seriously by academics and people concerned with gender, sexuality and politics absolutely DO not imply men can’t talk about issues. Intersectional Feminism isn’t just about empowering women, it’s about creating structures that defend and empower everybody including women.
A feminist might be exhausted from toxic masculinity and the power imbalances of men vs women in society and in the moment not respond well to you bringing up issues with men, but feminists definitely by and large do care about men and the issues they face because at the end of the day they are just the flip side of the problems women face.
It’s all part of the same problem and the only way to fix it is to take better care of each other, which includes men, it includes everyone.
I think the point I’m trying to make is that DEI seems to have forgotten the cis white male.
Yeah, we’ve been privileged forever…and obviously equality feels like oppression to the priveleged…but at the same time I know I can find employee groups for every racial group, gender, and sexuality…except for the white cis male. To the other posters point, the same is true on college campuses. The only space left is frats, and that tends to attract toxic personalities.
At some point, everyone need to be able to feel they are in a comfortable space with peers. That is, ultimately, the whole idea of DEI. And it is a very noble idea. But in the process, we’ve co-edified all of the old-boys-groups and made it offensive to want to form a new one.
That’s so ridiculously false. Every college campus in America has a women’s only space now. How many of them have a men’s only space that hasn’t been coopted by the women’s studies department?
The only men’s spaces left in academia are frats…which is the bastion of al the things this post is complaining about.
And hell…that’s the core of this issue. If regular non toxic alpha wannabes want to talk about an issue…there’s simply no place to do it because the feminists have driven those discussions to the dark dank corners of toxic hell holes of society.
Cite your sources if you want to make huge lazy generalizations that are honestly insulting to the immense amount of violence and structural exclusion women have faced down to get to the imperfect state of women’s equality.
Cite your sources it is a bunch of angry feminist activists shouting down men everywhere just trying to talk about why they are hurt.
Show me your sources, and a couple of anecdotes don’t count, show me evidence this is happening systematically.
edit love it, downvote me without giving any evidence that.
not to be all “source?” but — source?
This statement feels full of selection bias. Let’s assume Angela Davis literally said this, does that mean Judith Butler agrees?
But I imagine it’s more that this was said by a semi-anonymous rage bait account on a social media platform.
That’s not to say such things aren’t hurtful - they are - but in the same way FirstnameBunchOfNumbers on Twitter says stupid shit all the time - eg all unions are all always bad and are literally communism - that doesn’t speak for the entirety of tradespeoples.
I hate to use the phrase, but it’s right there. Are you saying that “not all feminists” are like that?
No.
I’d much rather actually discuss the points raised. I was interested to discuss whether the person I was replying to (might be you - can’t tell on mobile) thought that what they said reflected all feminist thought, and whether that was current, new, or had always been there since Wollstonecraft etc
Do you really want to go into the difference between the “notallmen” epithet and the concept that because someone accuses a group of something does not mean that they are guilty of it nor does it mean that group is a monolith? The conversation seems fairly straightforward and doesn’t really need elaborating on. But I guess if you genuinely did have questions about the difference between “notallmen” and “accusing a group of something they didn’t do” I’d be willing to attempt to answer reasonable questions on the topic.
No, I am not the person you responded to, I just thought it was funny because all I could think of reading your comment was how many parallels it had to the “not all men” saying.
But to be more serious, I don’t think you can point to any individual saying men can’t discuss these topics, but there is a sentiment that has been felt for a long while. Listen to Bo Burnham’s Inside and he jokes about being a white guy trying to be supportive but not really being sure how without coming off as a “white savior.” A couple decades ago Ben Folds expressed frustration at not feeling allowed to express his personal problems to some degree in Rockin the Suburbs, and while that was more aimed at complaining from a place of privilege I think it captures a similar feeling the person you responded to expressed.
I think it’s difficult for a lot of men, especially younger ones, to express that kind of feeling without being (or feeling like they are being) rejected for having those feelings because they are the ones with the privilege. Or they may bottle up those feelings in an unhealthy manner out of guilt for potentially distracting from those with bigger issues. And those can open the door to them rejecting feminism in general so that they can express those feelings. People like Andrew Tate are able to take advantage of that.
I didn’t say men can’t discuss issues, (i wasnt even saying whether they should) I’m saying that for any sensible, reasonable definition of what “modern feminism” is (what does that even mean?), there is no correlation to “men can’t discuss these things,” and no prominent, published authors, scholars or journalists are saying such things - outside of tabloids, looking to score rage clicks.
In my experience it’s the very opposite.
Nobody is telling men what to actually do to be a lovable person. Just what not to do.
Woman here. (Sorry, don’t typically announce my gender, but relevant to the comment if someone else reads it.)
Tbh I wish the conversation were more positive. I ain’t no expert cuz I’m struggling with my own advice, but I’d recommend: Try to get a decent job, work on your mental health, take care of yourself, build friendships, try to get in a decent place financially, and maintain a healthy schedule, environment, and diet. Be the kind of person you’d want to date. And treat women like men for the most part. Most people I know in relationships met at work, school, church, dating apps, or through friends / common interests.
But the reason I’m not on the dating market myself is cuz I’m a mess of a human being who doesn’t want to be trapped in a codependent relationship. Dating doesn’t sound appealing at all when I have so many problems I need to work through first. I’ve seen what happens when people try to fix their problems with relationships; it usually results in more problems.
Best of luck. Sorry things are rough.
Thank you, sorry if I gave off the wrong impression. I actually said it as I was previously in a situation where I was, but I started focusing on myself (taking advice similar to yours) and it actually does help! Previously I was flat out scared of talking to women. I thought even looking at someone could be creepy/harassing.
Turns out just talking to someone and then asking if they’d like to go out for food or something in a respectful manner after a conversation isn’t creepy and actually seems to invoke a positive reaction from them sometimes? Who would have known!
Oh, glad to hear it!
Lol…welcome to interacting with women. It’s all subjective and not objective…hell even the subjective measures of success are conflicting.
(Jokes aside, I like that comment a lot. Very astute)
The patriarchy hurts everyone.
Appreciate this.
The patriarchy and gender roles are definitely a big part of why men suffer, and it’s as much of a men’s issue as it is a women’s issue.
That said, I do think it’s debatable on whether or not modern feminism is truly intent on dismantling it from both sides.
I find it telling that the meme is about men following idiotic “influencers” and so many people here are like “I identify with that man on the bike but my problems are unrelated”
I wouldn’t say identify. Pretty sure many of us don’t follow Andrew Tate or influencers in general. We’re showing empathy for the general situation. Sorry it bothered you.
Yes - they’re either idiots or have idiot parents.