Following the UN Security Council vote to approve a three-phase ceasefire in Gaza, U.S. officials and other international allies of Israel are cynically placing blame on Hamas for a stall in current ceasefire negotiations — even as Israel has insisted on indefinitely continuing its massacre in Gaza and Hamas has said its main request is a guarantee that Israel would actually honor the ceasefire.
But reports from a wide variety of news sources on how both Israel and Hamas are approaching the ceasefire proposal suggest that Blinken is lying about which party is accepting of the deal. Indeed, reports have found that it is actually Israel that won’t agree to the deal’s framework: an immediate ceasefire with a limited prisoner and hostage exchange, then a permanent ceasefire and withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza, and ultimately the reconstruction of Gaza and return of Palestinians to their homes.
Israel’s insistence on continuing its genocide has been consistent throughout the last eight months, including in reaction to the most recent ceasefire proposals of the past weeks. Officials have said Israel will only stop bombarding Gaza when they decide that Hamas has been eliminated and Palestinians there no longer pose a threat to Israel — a pledge that requires the mass slaughter of Palestinian civilians, as military procedures and Israel’s own public statements have shown.
But the main demand from Hamas appears to be straightforward, according to other officials familiar with the negotiations. Multiple outlets citing such sources have echoed what Hamas officials have said: that they are primarily concerned with getting guarantees from the U.S. and Israel that the deal will actually lead to a ceasefire and withdrawal from Gaza.
Specifically, Hamas is concerned about a lack of assurances from the current proposal about the transition between the first and second phases of the plan, Reuters reports, citing multiple sources involved with the talks. The first phase involves a six-week ceasefire, with the release of some Israeli hostages, while the second phase calls for a permanent ceasefire and Israeli troop withdrawal.
Archived version: https://archive.ph/vNwMx
Israel has repeatedly stated their intent to continue the war in Gaza regardless of international approval. Netanyahu, among others, has stated intent to establish a long-term/permanent security presence in Gaza.
Since Oct. 7th the Israeli military has either directly killed or provided protection to lethal settler attacks in the West Bank, resulting in over 500 deaths in a section of Occupied Palestinian Territory that theoretically isn’t at war. So there’s Israeli military presence, violence, and oppression of Palestinians even where Hamas isn’t in control.
Hamas are not good guys by any stretch, but unfortunately they are the folks bargaining for Gazans. In the face of continued Israeli aggression, disregard for international approval/law, and stated plans it’s no wonder they’re demanding that any deals have rock-solid guarantees on an enforceable timetable.
they are the folks bargaining for Gazans
No they are not. Had that been the case people would actually get humanitarian aid and water pipes wouldn’t be used for making rockets but instead give people water.
Israel has been holding the Gaza Strip under blockade for more than a decade, since June 2007. It does not allow any materials in that it considers “dual purpose”, i.e., that can be used for either civilian or military purposes. This includes construction materials, such as cement and iron, and other raw materials. All these are needed to repair Gaza’s water and sanitation infrastructure, which were heavily damaged by Israeli bombings, especially in Operation Cast Lead (which began in late 2008) and Operation Protective Edge (the summer of 2014). The estimated damage amounts to some 34 million dollars. As of the end of 2015, more than 100,000 Palestinians in Gaza were still cut off from the public water network.
This is just some of the systemic violence that happens under an Apartheid State, on top of the direct violence
they are the folks bargaining for Gazans
Hamas’s sole goal is to bait Israel into killing as many Palestinians as possible so they can unite the Arab world via their mutual hatred for Jews. The only reason they’re even making a façade of negotiating is so headlines can make Israel look unreasonable for not accepting their one-sided deals.
Just to get it out of the way at the start - Hamas is terrible. They are violent fundamentalists and do not deserve support. Neither Israel nor Hamas are “good” and the only side that deserves support and recognition are the civilians, Israeli or Palestinian, suffering because of/under their evil regimes. Now on to the rebuttal.
Israel needs no “baiting” to kill or otherwise abuse Palestinians - it’s their policy and has been for a long time. From the Nakba until today, the history of Israeli human rights violations, violence, lies, etc. is well-established. “Look at what you made me do” is such a typical excuse used by abusers that it’s almost a trope. Moreover, Netanyahu’s government deliberately kept Hamas in power as a useful bogeyman and an way to divide/foil Palestinian statehood. There is ample evidence that Israel has directly supported Hamas and other extremists for decades.
“Hamas, for its part, is alleged to have emerged out of the Israeli-financed Islamist movement in Gaza, Israel’s then-military governor in that territory, Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, disclosing in 1981 that he had been given a budget for funding Palestinian Islamists to counter the rising power of Palestinian secularists.”
"In a 1994 book, “The Other Side of Deception,” Mossad whistleblower Victor Ostrovsky contended that aiding Hamas meshed with “Mossad’s general plan” for an Arab world “run by fundamentalists” that would reject “any negotiations with the West,” thereby leaving Israel as “the only democratic, rational country in the region.” Avner Cohen, a former Israeli religious affairs official involved in Gaza for over two decades, told a newspaper interviewer in 2009 that, “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation.”
As far as the nature of the demands: “one-sided deals” is a matter of opinion, but “we need guarantees you’ll actually leave, stop killing/injuring many tens of thousands of civilians, destroying hospitals/schools/aid, etc.” seems like a pretty standard request at peace negotiations. Especially since Israel has repeatedly promised to continue to prosecute the war and establish long-term armed forces in Gaza.
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How the hell Hamas are the good guys when they’re the ones that pushed Israel for so long that it finally snapped? Have we forgotten them proudly parading a dead/unconscious girl nude around the streets.
They said,
Hamas are not good guys by any stretch
and then you say,
How the hell Hamas are the good guys […]?
Not only a straw man, but you’re literally acting like they made the complete opposite argument. Bad faith, dude. Bad faith.
Not even going to get into the whole, “they pushed Israel for so long that it finally snapped” thing. Just a complete historical revisionism.
Do people actually buy this shit?
Day in and day out, yes. It is a Kafkaesque political strategy. It is about injecting discord and confusion.
It is a pretty common tactic for accepting or supporting a genocide, or priming people to shame others for not accepting or supporting a genocide.
Corollary: there’s a somewhat relevant quote by Sartre on the ‘anti semite’ from the immediate aftermath of WW2: https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/7870768-never-believe-that-anti-semites-are-completely-unaware-of-the-absurdity
Yeah people on both sides think they are justified in exterminating the other
Not a straw man, but whatever. If you fail to see that the comment I was replying to is basically “they’re not the good guys, BUT…”, not much to discuss. I’ll maybe just add that a few years ago, when comments like “I’m not racist, BUT…” were everywhere, people like you were going around telling everyone that the part before the BUT doesn’t count, so I took the liberty of ignoring it.
So, is it hypocrisy or just cognitive dissonance?
For anyone reading the above: Hamas is the one in negotiations with Israel. The words that came out after ‘but’ was a factual statement, not a justifying qualifier.
Hamas is negotiating with Israel on behalf of Gaza. Textbook case of prejudice hijacking reading comprehension.
Man says “hamas aren’t good guys, but they are the only ones bargaining on behalf of Gazans”
And you say “he said hamas are good guys”
If you learned “everything after the But in a sentence is a lie” and still believe it that vehemently without nuance into your adult life, you should reevaluate who you’re taking your life advice from. Things can have nuance, and this war is fucking filled with it. Gazans who haven’t known a life outside of death and destruction of their home voting for people who claim they’ll fight for them (Hamas), radicalized by the violence enacted upon them by Israel. Israel insisting the death tolls are anyway near similar, riling up their citizens and voter bases about Hamas, an organization that, with it’s absolute best opportinity for a ‘surprise’ attack on October 7th, barely scratched the surface of the innocent deaths since this has begun. It was a travesty, a loss of innocent life, and it was met with another travesty, another loss of life, but in greater force than they could have ever attempted.
If you can’t sympathize with a people who have been starved, bombed, displaced, and then blamed for their existence, then history has failed you.
It’s easier to win a discussion when you just state falsehoods, especially misquoting the other person, as the other person would have to defend it. On to a new lie, and around we go.
Many people will, unfortunately, listen to the lies, because the person defending themselves will look like they have nothing new to come up with, rather just stand there defending themselves.
Just look at any Trump discussion.
The statement in question.
Hamas are not good guys by any stretch, but unfortunately they are the folks bargaining for Gazans. In the face of continued Israeli aggression, disregard for international approval/law, and stated plans it’s no wonder they’re demanding that any deals have rock-solid guarantees on an enforceable timetable.
How israel the good guys when they imposed a blockade on gaza controlling all in and out in it and control water and electricity in gaza. When they are continuing to expends illegal settlements in west bank and when they never stopped killed palestinians even before the 7 of october?
They aren’t the good guys. Neither are the terrorists who murdered Israelis long before the current conflict. You realize you don’t have to support terrorists to be against a genocide, right?
when they’re the ones that pushed Israel for so long that it finally snapped?
I guess Israel has never treated Palestinians unfairly, huh?🙄
Did I say that? Just to clarify: I didn’t and I don’t think so.
I know it’s hard to grasp, but there are people who think the hamas terrorists are disgusting and at the same time the Israeli genocide is disgusting.
You know that you don’t have to support terrorists just to condemn a genocide, right?
If you understand the extent to which Israel has been harming Palestinians through history, framing the current conflict as:
[Hamas are] the ones that pushed Israel for so long that it finally snapped
is brutally dishonest.
You know that you don’t have to support terrorists just to condemn a genocide, right?
I don’t support terrorists. In a fair world, the Hamas leaders who ordered attacking civilian population should rot in prison. But I’m going to fight fake narratives that pretend that the Israeli government doesn’t have the lion’s share of responsibility in this situation or that they aren’t even worse terrorists than Hamas.
And what do you think we should do about that? Because all your points seems to boil down to just do nothing and feel superior, the usual centrist. Funny how that just happens to support Israel’s position and enables them to continue with the genocide. Fuck off, you are a disgusting person.
At least I’m not too disgusting, otherwise I might go around and start calling people names online to feel like a big boy. I’m tired of you tools supporting terrorists and somehow pretending that’s fine because Israel is bad.
Did you misread that?
Nope.
I hope this doesn’t just dissolve into hand-waving and general dismissal based on “he said / she said”. Someone call the bluff and let’s see the cards face-up.
It will. And in this time isreal keeps killing
Seems like it. They just started bombing another designated safe zone, Al-Mawasi, a couple of hours ago.
That’s why Blinken is there. Hamas suggested an altered version of the ceasefire that Israel won’t agree to. Now Blinken needs to find middle ground.
That’s why Blinken is there
To lie to the world and pretend to be a neutral arbiter while clearly being on the side of the genocidal apartheid regime like every other secretary of state for the last 75 years?
Well, in that case I’ll say something I would never otherwise say, based on all he’s done so far: Blinken is doing a great job! Well done!
(Autocorrect changed great to grotesque, which is more accurate in general)
shakes magic 8-ball:
signs point to yes
From what I am understanding a few points Hamas wants changed:
The US ceasefire proposal says israel only needs to leave the populated areas of Gaza. Meaning Blinken is saying that he wants to let israel occupy the “non populated areas” of Gaza
Hamas wants israel out of Gaza.
Israel wants to continue their Genocide if a deal has not been reached after 6 weeks.
Hamas wants a permanent ceasefire and the ceasefire should continue indefinitely after 6 weeks if there’s still discussions ongoing.
For the rebuilding of Gaza the US would contribute ~400 million dollars to rebuilding Gaza (damage estimates 30-40 Billion from UN) after giving israel 26 Billion in weapons. Did not read a comment about this from Hamas but this seems rather low.
Israel needs to rebuild it
Israel needs to stay the fuck away from it forever.
I mean the money.
Would still be better to agree to a temporary ceasefire whilst a permanent one is negotiated.
If there was any chance of it turning into a permanent ceasefire; yes. However israel has made it clear in no uncertain words that they will continue the Genocide after 6 weeks.
Netanyahu says the war will not end until Hamas is destroyed
Biden said Friday a peace deal would involve an initial six-week cease-fire with a partial Israeli military withdrawal, and the release of some hostages, while “a permanent end to hostilities” is negotiated through mediators.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office on Saturday dismissed any idea that Israel would agree to a permanent cease-fire before “the destruction of Hamas’ military and governing capabilities,” saying such a proposal is “a non-starter.”
Netanyahu is not the end-all-be-all of Israeli decisionmaking. Unlike Hamas, the Israeli state is a democratic institution. If an agreement is formulated between that guarantees the Israeli citizenry that Gazan islamic terrorists won’t repeat an october 7 massacre in the future, Netanyahu will not be able to stop it. Time is what is needed to create such an agreement.
However, as always, Hamas prioritizes their own interests above those of the Gazan populace. They know very well Israel can not realistucally agree to an unconditional, permanent end to hostilities, as that was the situation that led to october 7th in the first place.
At the minimum I would expect a permanent end to the war to be conditioned on Hamas releasing the remaining civilian hostages.
An Apartheid is not a democracy. But still the war cabinet fully supports what Netanyahu is saying here.
So you are correct to point out that it is not just Netanyahu but the israeli government that does not want a ceasefire.
The rest of your comment makes no sense. Consider reading my previous comment again.
An Apartheid is not a democracy.
Even if it were, those aren’t mutually exclusive. Most, if not all democracies are flawed in some fashion.
But still the war cabinet fully supports what Netanyahu is saying here.
So much so that members have been on the verge of resigning several times. You underestimate just how frail Netanyahus position really is.
So you are correct to point out that it is not just Netanyahu but the israeli government that does not want a ceasefire.
It does, just not at the terms Hamas demands.
The rest of your comment makes no sense.
I’m perfectly willing to clarify. If there is something you fail to understand, please highlight it.
No they are mutually exclusive. Annexing the West Bank without giving its inhabitants the right to vote means israel is not a democracy.
One cannot be a Democracy and an Apartheid at the same time.
I cannot respond to the rest of your comment as you appear to be describing an alternate reality which we are not present in.
Here’s what the UN says on the matter.
Israel is a democracy with well-established and independent institutions…
In the occupied Palestinian territory…
So at least in the reality where the UN exists, Israel is a democracy and the Palestinian territories are occupied (as opposed to annexed).
I’d love to hear more about the reality that “we” (you and your woefully uninformed friends I presume?) are present in.
then a permanent ceasefire and withdrawal of Israeli troops from Gaza, and ultimately the reconstruction of Gaza and return of Palestinians to their homes.
I don’t have anything to add, but want to ask a question about this part: what fucking homes?!?!
“Ok, you can go back home now. Btw, it’s a pile of rubble now, so good luck with that. Bye!”
that might be directly related to “reconstruction of Gaza” thing
It’s going to take years, if not decades, to clear the rubble and the human remains still inside.
The millions of reconstruction for billions worth of damage will ensure there is maximum amount of ‘unpopulated’ Gazan area for Israel to remain occupying.
Which also means there is a baked in flashpoint of conflict where Israel will have to leave areas that are rebuilt. The entire history and existence of Israel indicates this will not happen: settlers will occupy anywhere the IDF is: which brings us back to the status quo.
Yes but that part doesn’t happen if it happens until future phase 3.
So the plan is to just let them go back to where the home was then wait
Read the sentence before it.
Regardless of whatever changes each side wants, stopping the shooting and bombardments would be a gesture that would represent actual intent in reaching a real ceasefire.
And if one side wants to continue the shooting and bombing? Then you can’t even agree to a ceasefire. And that’s the issue we have
Guys, this war is not going to end before the US election, stop pretending: bibi and his fascist buddies want to get trump into the presidency so they can do whatever they want. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-gaza-finish-problem-rcna141905
hamas thinks that more victims means more support for them and they are never going to surrender or hand over the hostages. https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/gaza-chiefs-brutal-calculation-civilian-bloodshed-will-help-hamas-626720e7
PS: The disagreement in the negotiation is the ambiguity on the permanence of the cease fire: hamas wants guarantees that the war will not continue in the future. Biden is not in a position to give or force that guarantee if he loses. Israel does not want such a guarantee, because they think they can eventually exterminate hamas faster than the suffering of palestinians radicalizes new militants.
Netanyahu is already getting whatever he wants under Biden. Consider telling Biden to stop supporting the Genocide if you believe Netanyahu needs Trump for it.
And Hamas has already agreed to a permanent ceasefire in exchange for the hostages. It’s what this article is about.
Sounds like this deal is on thin ice already. Not surprised.
I thought I read something earlier today that mentioned that the current deal is that the hostages be returned and then Israel will pull out it’s troops.
Hamas wants to alter it so that they release a few hostages, then Israel pulls out, and then they release the rest of the hostages.
It sounds like Israel had already agreed to that deal so isn’t this in Hamas’ ball park to accept or not?
Then again it sounds like every time the deal is altered, the other side wants to male new changes,
As Blinken mentioned in a different article:
“At some point in a negotiation, and this has gone back and forth for a long time, you get to a point where if one side continues to change its demands, including making demands and insisting on changes for things that it already accepted, you have to question whether they’re proceeding in good faith or not.” https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-ceasefire-negotiations-ab6925549d8f523a6e5c61e88e7eec8a
Has anyone actually published the entire deal (at any stage) in its entirety so that everyone can see what is being debated?
The Three-phase plan from the UN Resolution:
Phase one includes an “immediate, full, and complete ceasefire with the release of hostages including women, the elderly and the wounded, the return of the remains of some hostages who have been killed, and the exchange of Palestinian prisoners”.
It calls for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from “populated areas” of Gaza, the return of Palestinians to their homes and neighbourhoods throughout the enclave, including in the north, as well as the safe and effective distribution of humanitarian assistance at scale.
Phase two would see a permanent end to hostilities “in exchange for the release of all other hostages still in Gaza, and a full withdrawal of Israeli forces from Gaza”.
In phase three, “a major multi-year reconstruction plan for Gaza” would begin and the remains of any deceased hostages still in the Strip would be returned to Israel.
The Council also underlined the proposal’s provision that if negotiations take longer than six weeks for phase one, the ceasefire will continue as long as negotiations continue. No territorial change
In the resolution, the Security Council rejects any attempt at demographic or territorial change in the Gaza Strip, including any actions that reduce the territory of the enclave.
“Look at these bad faith negotiators who won’t even accept our empty promises.”
I’m pro-palestine as fuck. But can’t we have a higher standard for sourcing please.
It’s no surprise Truthout is biased towards Palestinian Human Rights, but they are certainly more credible than Ad Fontes or MBFC suggests. If you look at the few articles that Ad Fontes shows as ‘low credibility’ you can see that the articles are well sourced and quoted. If you look at MBFC, they are rated as ‘Mixed’ on factual reporting despite no Articles failing a fact check.
Although Truthout has not failed a fact check by an IFCN fact checker, they have reported some stories that were not factual. For example, a reporter claimed that Karl Rove was indicted on charges when in fact, he wasn’t. The reporter continued to claim without evidence. See the link here. Although this is only one example, it shows that this source should be checked when in doubt.
Overall, we rate Truthout strongly Left Biased based on story selection and political positions that favor the left. We also rate them Mixed for factual reporting due to publishing a false story and promoting anti-GMO propaganda. (5/15/2016) Updated (D. Van Zandt 12/01/2022)
The article listed here links to a broken Truthout link, with the article author being Jason Leopold. I’m not sure about the article since I can’t see it, but he has other articles here until 2013.
No failed fact checks for anything Palestine related. The one other article mentioned you can find here listed as an Op-Ed. Written by Robert Schooler in 2016, and the only article on Truthout written by him.
That’s certainly not enough for me to write off the entire news outlet. Neither of these people are the ones writing these articles about what is happening in Gaza. If you find info in the article you think may not be factual, let me know.
First day on Lemmy?
first month — yes haha.
sourcing is still better here than reddit though
Yeah good point. Just unfortunately it’s an echochamber.
The Biden Administration is happily an active Israeli Hasbara propagandist.
The second most sad things in all this situation (after what’s happening to Palestinians) is how the upcoming US election is turns out to be between Administration openly supporting “quasi-Nazis” because of their ethnicity and even spreading Himmler-style propaganda and Fascists.
Side note:
It’s apparent that the U.S. has invested into this war beyond just funding / weapons. In the recent massacre, there were reports from Palestinians that U.S. soldiers were presently injuring and killing people. It appears that Hamas was right all along regarding that aid dock/pier. It wasn’t for aid.
This is propaganda designed to justify an attack on the pier. If the pier is attacked, Palestinians will starve. Hamas wants Palestinians to starve to gain more sympathy (and donation $$$) from abroad.
I mean come on, do you think the IDF lacks special forces capabilities to the degree they’d need to bring in US special forces to help them? And even if they did, why would the US launch a special forces operation from a pier instead of simply flying a helicopter from an aircraft carrier? Or just tagging along with the IDF from an Israeli base? Why would they ever use the pier for this purpose?
Hamas is spreading obvious propaganda which falls apart with even two seconds of critical thinking. This is the kind of shit that could result in Palestinians starving, if you care at all about the people there, don’t spread obvious lies.
Wat. If Hamas wanted Palestinians to starve… then why is it the Israelis that were stopping aid trucks and destroying the aid packages? Why wasn’t Hamas destroying the aid trucks?
For one, Israel is the leading global recipient of Title 22 U.S. security assistance under the Foreign Military Financing (FMF) program.
There’s multiple reports stating that the naval pier constructed by US forces on Gaza’s shore was used in the attack on the Nuseirat, with ground forces launching from this pier. And witnesses reporting that U.S. soldiers breeching homes/buildings during the attack.
You claim that Hamas spreads “obvious” propaganda, yet it is Israel who has pushed the most atrocious propaganda and all of it was a lie, all of it. And the U.S. government is just as complicit, especially for trying to take down TikTok, trying to push the anti-semitism bill/law in the U.S., violating our first amendment right, outlawing BDS in some of the states in the U.S., again violating our first amendment right (that’s three acts of treason against the U.S. Constitution) and each congressman/woman, at least on the republican side, having AIPAC handlers. Each one apparently has an assigned Israeli whispering into the ears of our representatives.
Btw, seems like Netanyahu was right, Americans are easy to control.
You’re trying to distract from the facts at hand. US installs a pier to bring in aid. Hamas spreads obvious propaganda about the pier being for special forces operations. Which is completely insane (special forces don’t need a pier!) but people are buying it.
Why would Hamas spread this propaganda? Probably just generic “US bad” kind of thing. But we can’t dismiss the possibility they want images of people starving for propaganda purposes.
I mean if you’re buying the propaganda that the pier isn’t for humanitarian purposes then they can attack the pier and get images of people starving and you will blame the US and Israel for those images and won’t consider that Hamas might be to blame for it.
Through the pier, the US can pretend to be aid. Tbh, it sounds like something they would do.
Do you think it’s pretend trucks carrying pretend food from that pier?
Uh huh. Un security is dubious at best anyway
Better than a violent occupying force
Hamas isn’t accepting the ceasefire. No matter how hard Hamas sympathizers try to spin it, Hamas is dragging this out and Palestinians are dying because of it.
Apparently when the UN security council makes a binding resolution, only Israel has to follow it and Hamas doesn’t. And everyone will make continue to make excuses for why it’s fine for Hamas to ignore the UN.
How much longer will Hamas continue to hold on to the hostages (which is a war crime) and continue the conflict that’s killing Palestinians before people realize that the group that massacred over a thousand people in a day might not be the good guy freedom fighters that TikTok says they are?
8 months and your still this much of a monster?
Israel kills tens of thousands of innocent civilians, makes many more homeless refugees, destroys every piece of civil infrastructure, does not allow for food to enter into the region at a scale necessary to avert famine…
But it’s Hamas fault for not trusting Israel for a deal
“Look what you made me do”
Unlike Hamas, Israel actually cares about it’s people. The IDF exists to protect the Israeli people. At the moment there are Israeli people being held against their will in Gaza. So the IDF is in Gaza.
Hamas indeed made this happen by taking hostages. Hamas can end this conflict by releasing the hostages. Hamas isn’t releasing the hostages because they want the conflict to continue.
It’s not alt that complicated.
I’m done with you
Can’t handle the truth, huh?
And what exactly does Hamas gain by dragging it out?
