Looks like only available in one restaurant for now, but it’s a start.
“For one thing, cultivated meat is not vegan or vegetarian.” -> I know some vegans who would disagree with that, on the grounds that no animal cruelty or slaughter is involved. I suspect there will be a fair bit of debate on this as cultivated meat becomes more widespread. I would guess just like we’ve already got “I’m a vegetarian who eats fish” we’ll end up with “I’m a vegan who does/doesn’t eat cultivated meat.”
You might want to cross-post this to !food too.
I know some vegans who would disagree with that
I definitely would!
Usually, the reason people go vegan is to try to reduce (hopefully eliminate) animal suffering, and/or to reduce green house gas emissions from animal farming.
Cultivated meat deals with the first, and, depending on how it’s produced, can probably entirely avoid the second as well.
I don’t know the process in detail, but I would also imagine that cultivated meat is no more sourced from animals than a plant that was fertilized with animal dung, and that would still be considered vegan.
There are some analyses out there that suggest cultivated meat will actually be worse for the climate than animals - for example https://www.ucdavis.edu/food/news/lab-grown-meat-carbon-footprint-worse-beef
Of course the cultivated meat startups disagree: https://www.npr.org/2022/11/21/1138371310/a-taste-of-lab-grown-meat
I was going to say, all the articles and science I saw on lab meat previously had it consuming far, far less resources than the traditional beef industry. Definitely going to read more about it but I’m still team lab meat for now.
Edit:
“But in a preprint, not yet peer-reviewed, researchers at the University of California…” That’s not a good start to their point.
The comments on that preprint by another expert also don’t seem promising on their conclusions of lab grown.
I’ll believe it’s worse than traditional beef when more science substantiates that view. This article isn’t that.
Even if cultivated meat was initially bad for the environment, I’d guess that it would be easy to minimize it’s environmental impact versus traditional meat. There’s only so much you can do to stop cows from belching CO2. However, a factory making vats of cultured meat could install pollution controls to reduce their emissions.
I’d definitely like to see peer reviewed studies backing everything up, but my guess is that cultivated meat will on par with or be better for the environment than traditional meat and will only get better.
Yeah so far it seems to be battling experts. UC Davis is a big agriculture/animal science school. On the other hand I don’t trust the lab meat industry’s own experts either. Hoping at some point to see a credible neutral analysis.
I’ve read it, and there’s already two issues:
- Not peer reviewed, so more margin of error
- It says that it will only be worse if the stuff needed to make lab grown meat is purified at pharmaceutical levels; if the stuff is food grade then the claim begins falls apart.
I think it’s odd to even compare. One is a brand new industry, the other is a hundreds of year old process in terms of learning how to make it efficient. Over time, I have no doubt lab-grown can out-carbon footprint actual cattle raising.
That was an interesting read, thanks for the link!
But yeah, I had no idea it was so much worse for the environment. But it seems there’s still the possibility it will be better one day, so I hope for the best. I guess in the meantime I’ll stick with plant-based foods.
You should check out issues brought up about this article by other comments since yours.
They biopsy live animals to get the cells to grow meat, so I am sure many vegans will object – but the labs theoretically never need to get more cells. The question becomes whether they do or not and how the source livestock is treated. Do they just sell the source animals to a slaughterhouse? Or do they donate them to a petting zoo? They are unlikely to tell the public.
I noticed the post’s link is PR from the Upside company website. GOOD Meat is another provider. Here is an NPR link with a bit less sensationalism: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2023/06/21/1183484892/no-kill-meat-grown-from-animal-cells-is-now-approved-for-sale-in-the-u-s
I’m not vegan, but I do keep Kosher and I’m sure there would be a huge debate in the Jewish community as to whether cultured meat was kosher.
Assuming that the animal that the original cells were taken from was Kosher (e.g. a chicken or a cow, not a pig), then would the cultured meat be Kosher? Would it not need to follow usual processes (specific slaughter techniques, salting and soaking the meat to remove blood, etc) if there was no animal/blood?
As cultured meat takes hold, there are going to be a lot of communities trying to take it into account. I’m sure there will be plenty of arguments as to the status of it as well. It should be interesting.
Looks like it’s already under discussion (not surprising given that some of the cultured meat companies are in Israel: https://time.com/6251154/lab-grown-meat-kosher-israel-rabbi/ https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2293219/jewish/Is-Lab-Grown-Meat-Kosher.htm
This is a fascinating issue, though it looks like from that article that there is no consensus. I think I’d side on it being kosher and pareve though as Rabbi Lau asserts in that article. The root principle of kosher laws is food safety and kindness to animals (however misguided that is given the we now know schechting an animal is actually horrifically cruel to it). Moreover, the rule against mixing meat and dairy derives from the prohibition on boiling a calf in its mother’s milk. Cultivated meat is the least cruel method of acquiring meat obviously and it has no mother, so kosher and pareve in my book.
If the vegan is there for ethics then cultivated meat should be all good. More ethical than cheese or leather anyway.
Maybe some will complain about the source of the starter cells or something.
Yes, there ain’t much to complain except for health. After all, vegan isn’t a diet, it is an ideology and if meat was the only healthy option, then it would be vegan to sometimes eat animal products and use products that caused harm to animal. In fact, I doubt there is such a thing as a totally vegan as the world is quite harsh. Because veganism is about minimising harm. Anyway, back to the diet, vegans generally believe that meat isn’t a necessity for humans thus making this lab meat potentialy unhealthy (according to that belief).
Health wise there really isn’t a big advantage to being vegan, vegetarian, or a meat eater. People can have healthy or unhealthy diets regardless of particular restrictions. In the past there wasn’t a lot of vegan junk food or options so vegans kinda had to be healthy on accident. Now days you can get just as messed up on vegan food. As an example oreos are vegan but no one is going to argue they’re a healthy meal.
A complete protein is important but a little more complex to get without meat or dairy. Right now the cheapest protein sources are chicken or protein powder derived from milk (whey). Vegan options are kinda pricey for powder and whole foods would be kinda a pain if you want a higher protein diet. I wonder if they could do “lab grown” complete protein powder cheap.
Arguably the lab grown meat could be more efficient than growing a whole chicken. And a lot of people simply won’t give up meat.
Speaking just for myself, I’ll be giving cultivated meat a pass. Not because I’m a vegan, but because I avoid ultraprocessed foods and venture capitalism as much as possible.
I know at least one person that has preemptively rejected cultivated meat because it requires the death of an animal.
Even though they know that a single animal’s death could then spare uncountable billions of future animals.
… does that make the chicken sampled for cultivation Chicken Jesus?
If you’re going to start rejecting things because even one animal died in the process of making them, you’d have to say goodbye to much of modern medicine too.
I would argue at some point they would need to reject modern living as a whole. Go build an A frame in the woods. Forage for berries and shit. Many aspects of the ways we live cause deaths. Like cars hitting animals. So if a single animal is too much, I have a feeling they should really be following that mindset.
The amount of animals killed by a modern farm tractor combine passing through is enormous. Its just that we don’t count “vermin” like that life. And most people who are vegan will never see it.
I don’t think that cultivated meat technically requires the death of an animal at all.
That person is incorrect and should read up on the subject. They take cells from a live animal, like a biopsy. The animal is otherwise unharmed.
I remember reading about cultivated meat using fetal bovine serum, so I’m wondering if Upside managed to take out a reliance on livestock for its process
There is no real way to scale production without eliminating fetal bovine serum.
People are posting sources saying that most companies have been serum free for a few years now.
Ex. https://twitter.com/elliotswartz/status/1483433664616669184?s=21
It’s pretty typical for a new product’s development to be inefficient until the processes are scaled, I wouldn’t read into it too much at the moment. Process improvements are happening at a ridiculously quick rate in this field; we’re talking on a weekly to monthly basis.
Keep in mind, too, that animal ag has a lot more money behind it than these folks, and similar to the oil companies they’re going to be spending buckets to slow the transition.
This is awesome! I had no idea lab grown meat was so close to being viable. I currently eat meat (with some guilt), and I can’t wait to get to the point where I can eat more ethically
agreed, regardless of whether or not it’s ethical to raise animals for meat, the way we currently do it is an eldritch abomination where “cage free” chicken are kept so tightly packed they will peck each other to death unless debeaked, and where “cut from neighbors knife” is a common injury report at slaughterhouses.
So they say the meat is 99% chicken cell, does anyone know what the 1% is? I’d just feel better knowing.
I don’t know, and maybe I shouldn’t comment, but my first thought was that it might be some sort of edible lattice that makes sure the chicken cells grow in a shape that looks vaguely filet-like.
Cant wait for the bacon lattice for my sandwich
Typically that’s more of a CYA move. If someone finds something that isn’t chicken cell they could sue for false advertising, but if it’s 100% chicken cell nobody can sue for saying it was 99%.
I was digging into this question and only found that it might be leftovers of whatever they feed the cells (which also no longer includes anything from live or harvested animals, which is cool). CYA covers that and so much more so I think you’re right.
I am very curious what price they can get this to. If traditional chicken breast is $11 a pound and this is $20, it’s going to be rough. If it’s around the same or cheaper, it could do very well!
I’m sure that it will initially cost a premium, before coming down in price as the technology matures. I’m also curious about the relative environmental impact that cultivated meat has versus raising livestock.
Dang, I figured CO2 emissions would be much better than traditional livestock but I wouldn’t have guessed that much better.
Right? The water and ghg emission is nearly at the same level as fruits and veggies from what I can tell. That’s intense. Energy use is still pretty high but I imagine that’ll get optimized over time. Low key excited to try it too, I wasn’t too sold on the meat alternatives from beyondmeat, but this looks very interesting.
I was wondering that too. It sounds like a promising technology.
for fast-food purposes, the plant-based meats (Impossible, Beyond Meat) were generally able to get in the door at parity with ordinary meat from what i can tell. i’m not sure about in-grocery-store, though. they’ve also been racked by waning consumer interest, probably because they seem “faddish” for lack of better wording. that, i honestly think, is the biggest hurdle to cultivated meat–not price.
I buy Beyond Meat bricks for $8.99 a pound. That’s pricey compared to regular beef, but I’m an outlier with pricing. I keep kosher at home and kosher meat is VERY expensive. Between the price and hassle (it requires separate pots/pans, plates, utensils, etc), I keep vegetarian at home. It’s just cheaper and easier.
Beyond Meat lets me cook “beef” dishes for less than kosher beef would cost me and with more flexibility. (Tonight, we had pasta and Beyond Beef meatballs with cheese - a dish I couldn’t make using kosher meat.)
There’s still a market for products like Beyond Beef, but I agree that they’ll need to hit “normal need” price levels before it really takes off.
Where is chicken breast $11 a pound? That’s like pasture raised organic prices where I am in the US.
as an omnivore dating a vegetarian who doesn’t eat meat for ethical reasons i am so, so excited!!!
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This is amazing! I can not wait to eat more ethically.
I’m very interested to learn what combination of cells they used to hit certain flavors and how they developed the right network of cells to make the right texture. Is there a ‘grain’? Will there be dark meat and white meat? So many questions! Can’t wait to see if they end up making pulled pork down the road, haha.
That’s cool! If I saw this in my supermarket I’d def try it.
Can’t wait until this is in grocery stores!
I guess it’s a start, but from the pictures I’ve seen, it looks more like a mechanically separated chicken product than good whole muscle meat. Maybe okay for applications that involve a lot of processing like a breaded and fried thing, or stews/curries where it’s going to be cooked for an extended time with a lot of added flavour. This is a long way from replicating something like a grilled chicken breast.
I get this is positive, but it saddens me to hear people comment now I can start eating more ethically. There have always been vegan options available. They have been there this whole time, this is merely another option out there, the majority of people will still prefer the “real thing”.
The only victim the in the situation is the Animals, their gauntlet of suffering from our hands must come to an end.
For someone like me, there honestly aren’t many options. I’m allergic to soy, which eliminates a LOT of vegan meat alternatives. I do mostly eat the options I can have rather than eating meat, but a lot of these options are relatively new and have most certainly not “been there this whole time”.
Rice, Beans, Fruits, Vegetables, Seeds, Grains, Nuts, Berries. Eat a variety of those and no animals need to die. There are plenty of vegans with Soy allergies. https://www.livekindly.com/9-vegan-proteins-to-eat-when-youre-allergic-to-soy/
I hope that is helpful, and my sentiment is not to gaslight anybody with dietary restrictions. There is a TON of money being spent to ensure people stay uneducated on what foods are actually healthy to eat.
Honestly a diet of just those foods sounds miserable - I’m also allergic to nuts so that’s not an option either. Kudos to the people that decide to limit their diet so much to go vegan, but no one is obligated to do so. People are allowed to be excited that there is going to be a more ethical version of food they enjoy
We can rail forever about how vegetarian and vegan options have been available to the majority for quite a while now, but the simple fact of the matter is that meat isn’t something a lot of cultures will budge on. Grown meat is the only realistic path towards substantially reduced animal suffering in the “near” future
That’s correct, I agree with you. I’m expressing that I’ve seen this happen time and time again. There are already alternatives out there, not processed alternatives, real foods people have been eating for thousands of years. So when people comment “Oh, FINALLY I can be ethical!” It comes off as disingenuous, people just don’t want to change their habits even if it better aligns with their personal beliefs. I still think for a long time this will play out how Beyond and Impossible do. An option for those curious to try it, but the path forward to liberate animals will not come from an exciting new product, it will have to come from a shift in our thinking of food. I just don’t see that ever happening.
This is a huge a step forward!
I’m super interested in information about purine levels in the various cultivated meats that will hit the market soon. There’s also a company called Wildtype that’s trying to get their grown salmon into the market. I’ve heard it’s sushi grade… It would be great if I could eat sushi and steak again. Off to eat my salad now, bye y’all!
I’ve been watching Wildtype excitedly for some time, I’ll definitely jump at the first chance I get to try it!
OMG OMG OMG!!! I’ve been waiting for this for decades!!! I love animals, but i wasn’t able to give up meat, so this is exactly what I’ve been hoping for!!! I’ve tried the plant based fake meats like Beyond and Impossible, but they don’t even come close to the real thing. My body craves real meat, but my mind hates all suffering, so perfect cultivated meat is my dream!
Please please please i hope this tastes exactly like the real thing!
