Yeah I don’t know. Just see how the modern world is shaping society to the negative I just don’t see where we are close to utopia But right now we are on a different path

That was essentially a big part of my point. We could be close to a utopia by now (from the perspective of technological possibilities).

Instead, as I said

for some suspicious reason we took a very different road, and here we are

That said I don’t currently believe technology itself is inherently bad.

Like all tools, it depends what you do with it.

Is a general purpose tool like hammer good or bad? It has the capacity for both. And therefore it’s up to the user which is which.

And that’s the issue really, what are we doing with our wonderous technology?

This might be a bit of a radical take. But in that ~125 year window i was refering to, alot of machines we’ve invented are actually weapons.

Weapons to destroy eachother physically (conflict/threats of violence etc).

Weapons to destroy nature (deforestation and probably most mining).

Weapons to destroy the mind (social media etc, actually most media now).

What if we’d had 1+¼ century of building a collective utopia instead of all these weapons?

afaict from the technical perspective it’s not really unfeasible, its the non-technical problem: the user and what they use the tools for.

Another clue for us is probably the term appropriate technology, which is a vibe i think eg. solar punk is helping to cultivate.

Anyway we’ve done ALOT of misuse. That’s why i don’t blame technology itself.

I still think it’s more about what we’ve done with it.

necessary decline in our quality of life

i’m not refuting your core premise.

but on the note of this issue, not sure i can agree.

have a look at this public infrastructure technology from 122 years ago:

Youtube/Invidious

imagine if we’d spent the last 1+¼ century collectively working towards the utopia this kind of project hinted at - instead of developing new machines to destroy?

typically they say utopian dreams scatter in the face of increased technological awareness. have to say my experience has been the opposite.

the more i learn about technology, the more i realise we could probably be very close to a near-utopia by now. for some suspicious reason we took a very different road, and here we are.

i reckon there’s a good chance she was trolling. and if so, fuckin well played.

not sure if you’re being sarcastic, but if anything this news paints linux deployment in an even better light.

i agree with everything you’ve said including your links between causation etc

except the final link you make that its the consumer, i note you said ‘partly’ a consumer issue, so its not a full attribution - perhaps i’m misinterpreting what % you’re attributing.

tbh my take is alot of people would like an option between paying $2 for a garment they know involved exploitation/slavery vs an accessible¹ independent option that doesn’t cost $500/garment.

i don’t think people are still choosing the $2 option because they’re ok with slavery. but (tragically?) they’re more ok with someone else being the slave vs them being the slave - which is what they’d basically be if every piece of clothing cost them $500.

and i think we know the reason there’s very little accessible options in between is because the game is rigged, you (HelixDab2) can’t realistically enter the game without serious capital behind you (ie. wealth/connections) to reach the volume prices which might give us an option in between - the market isn’t fair, its been stitched up long ago, by the same people who don’t produce anything and greedily skim off the top.

the venn diagram of independent designers fairly charging $500 for their labor and the greedy skimmers getting fat without producing anything themselves is two separate circles - they’re worlds apart

¹ Quick note on accessibility, there are ofc some scant options between $2-500, but what isn’t clear (ie. readily accessible) to the consumer is which of those options isn’t just some greedy bastard buying a $2 option and selling it on for $15.

In other words its not because of the consumers, but because of the greedy skimming off the top.

if you wanna continue to embarrass yourself go ahead. i won’t be entertaining this sad display any longer.

anyone is free to search the thread and read what i wrote in the full context it was stated.

and to see your blatant dishonesty.

good luck mate, i hope you find some kind of peace to whatever is keeping you so fixated about windows users that you need to fabricate an enemy in me over that aspect, despite me clearly and repeatedly denouncing it from day 1 of this discussion. all the best.

and for the record i don’t think its about ‘inadequacies’. its not a magic skill or secret knowledge. its just about investing the time to learn. put the time in and it will come, as you’ve already seen with your server.

nowhere in this entire essay, nor in any of your other comments for that matter, do you even address my point that lumping in Windows users with the immoral actions of a company results in a harmful dissonance

anyone can see the scrollback for themselves, it’s plainly visible i denounced it multiple times. the evidence is right here for anyone to see:

But then you learn they got rich by cutting corners and screwing over your friends. And are actively investing in making the public pool shit so they can grandstand their pool. Noone is blaming you for going up to the rich guys pool to have a nice easy time. Or at least, I’m not defending the kind of linux zealots who might blame you for choosing that

Source

As I mentioned, I’m not here to criticise you for making the choice you have, or defend those who do criticise you for it.

Source

As stated we are not listing reasons for condemning you for your choice

Source

As stated many times, you are welcome to your choice, and your choice is understandable.

Source

dude its just sad at this point. why are you bothering to pretend its not addressed when its addressed repeatedly and was even requoted like 2 posts before you made your ridiculous, verifiably false statement.

what is the purpose of this game? who do you think you’re kidding? anyone can see you’re being dishonest. and don’t even have the grace to admit it, you’re wrong. completely wasting an opportunity for us both to learn and for us to be friends even.

whats even stranger is the original discussion was about linux community shitting on windows NOT windows users:

The Linux community shitting on Windows is worse

Source

you’ve fixated on this windows user issue when, as quoted, it was never even about that, was already denounced by me immediately as quoted & sourced repeatedly above.

i can see why you think linux users are smug arseholes, you pull this shit and cry when you don’t get away with it. its just sad dude. noone at microsoft is paying for your time to get invested like this. you think you give a fuck about you???

but you know who might actually give a fuck about you? us, here, in this community. but you need to start by being honest with yourself about this, otherwise you are the one making it a waste of time.

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Quisque laoreet malesuada congue. Nulla sit amet facilisis ligula. Sed sed enim et nunc placerat porta. Cras hendrerit hendrerit quam quis luctus. Cras id feugiat quam, a semper enim. Praesent vitae nibh luctus, feugiat ante accumsan, varius libero. Aliquam sed laoreet sem. Mauris vitae sem pretium ex vulputate ultrices sed ac turpis. Pellentesque congue mi sit amet massa consectetur, ut ultrices quam varius. Donec ut dui et neque sagittis vehicula. Maecenas maximus tincidunt fermentum. Proin posuere dapibus dui quis convallis. Nulla quam mauris, posuere sed volutpat a, consectetur in ex. Morbi tortor dui, placerat bibendum nulla nec, aliquam venenatis lorem. Integer vel dignissim risus, in gravida metus.

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Suspendisse ultrices imperdiet nibh non venenatis. Vivamus hendrerit sem at nibh semper imperdiet. Vivamus fermentum vulputate rutrum. Aenean vitae venenatis dolor. Nulla hendrerit sapien et fermentum placerat. Fusce massa ante, dapibus et turpis eu, tempor scelerisque enim. Sed feugiat tincidunt eros, sit amet molestie tellus interdum sed. Donec condimentum a dui eu dictum. Donec pretium orci dolor, eu ornare ligula facilisis id. Vestibulum ante ipsum primis in faucibus orci luctus et ultrices posuere cubilia curae; Maecenas ac nibh elit. In condimentum, felis at dignissim interdum, metus massa iaculis lorem, sit amet tincidunt dolor ipsum eget justo. In cursus magna elit, et mollis justo egestas eu. Mauris tristique id nunc sit amet rutrum. Donec eu lorem et lectus imperdiet pharetra at eu diam.

just venting. lol

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all linux users are smug arseholes because once upon a time some of them hurt my feelings. and even though another linux user repeatedly denounced that and said its unfortunate, i pretended they didn’t because they wouldn’t endlessly cry with me about my hurt feelings and instead talked about actual real world facts, what a horrible group of people

i said i don’t defend it in the very first message i said to you. why isn’t that enough?

you claim i won’t address it when i denounced it in the very first reply i sent to you?!? when i already denounced it, what is there left to say?

Thanks for wasting my time. It seems you have no interest in the facts or learning anything new. You just want to be right, even when discussing a topic you openly admit you know little to nothing about. You freely admit you can’t get linux to work properly, yet suppose to lecture everyone what they are and are not free to discuss about this very same topic you admit you can’t get a handle on. All because your ego got a little bruised

enjoy.

Either we are failing to communicate (because i too have a strong sense you just “want to be right” regardless of the facts), or you’re actually engaging in bad faith discussion.

Since you mentioned you have the same feeling I’ll try to lay it out a bit more.

Its unfortunate you’ve had people ego flex on you over supposed morality. But that doesn’t mean everyone who mentions linux is like that.

Example, I’ve seen people who go up to smokers and evangalise about how smoking is “bad”, and how they’re “hurting society BY hurting themselves with smoking”. Well arguments about second hand smoke aside, I don’t really think that approach is especially helpful. It’s a moral position based on this abstract idea - even if statistically smokers increase our insurance or some shit like that, i doubt many people have the personal experience to say it actually effects them, so it defs comes off as a supposed moral high ground thing, right?

Because some people are going around making that kind of fuss, does mean that EVERYONE who chooses not to smoke is acting out some moral high ground fantasy? Are ALL those who quit smoking “for their health” just morality faking fuckwits? Or are some of them legit worried about their lung health?

For another example, your claim of conflation very much appears to be centred around your misunderstanding of the facts: You’ve had some people flex on your ego, and thats unfortunate. But I don’t think its useful to allow that experience to taint everything else you hear on the topic, and therefore presume you know what someone is saying just because someone else took the same side on the same topic.

The entire premise of traditional digital computing is centred on some key concepts, one of which is defined behaviour. Very clear and strict logical boundaries need to be established for what is defined behaviour. In simple, an operation (eg. adding two numbers), must be deterministic, that is the same two numbers when added must always produce the same resulting number.

Central to another aspect of this is trust. If you cannot trust the outcome of defined behaviour, then the precepts of computing fall apart for a variety of important applications, the behaviour is no longer strictly defined.

I’d hard to overstate how important this is, how much it empowers you as a member of the public, who do not have the resources to hire a team of number crunchers (as companies used to have to do in the old days).

Microsoft have repeatedly shown, they cannot be trusted. They will manipulate and deceive, by design in your computer, with actual code they insert into windows and then knowingly ship.

For these people, this problem matters ALOT, and this isn’t some abstract thing, its not some idealist philosophy to smugly throw around at parties, its a cold electronic fact - something they have to deal with, overcome, often at their own expense. The problem being, that when they ask their computer to perform an operation, their computer might intentionally lie to them about the operation itself, the outcome of the operation, or the integrity of the information going in or out of that operation.

The trust problem between microsoft and the code they insert into windows (running at the highest privilege level on YOUR computer hardware), is absolutely intertwined in the real world, in practice, in a variety of ways. Yes, all threat models involving linux deal with trust problems as well. But when you have a known compromised product from a known bad actor it is simply incorrect to suggest the product and the creator can only be considered in isolation from eachother.

And as you can appreciate you don’t even need to do anything wrong, for these kind of user-hostile features to be used against you, even in ways not intended by those who put them there - which is a whole other issue.

I could go on & on as this is really just touching the surface, but I hope you can begin to appreciate it’s not even remotely close to a conflation, this is not some guilt by association abstract nonsense, this is deeply and painfully practical. i really hope you can at least get a glimpse of it for yourself now.

I don’t know how you can be so involved on the subject and not understand this.

In the first statement i made to you directly was the following:

Noone is blaming you for going up to the rich guys pool to have a nice easy time. Or at least, I’m not defending the kind of linux zealots who might blame you for choosing that

From which I cannot fathom how you think I lack an appreciation that some people do blame others for such choices, or that I’m somehow having a conversation about those kinds of people…at all? Let alone their perceived moral high ground or lack thereof?

My entire thread has been about us having the freedom to express our reasons for avoiding it. If you’re not contesting the legitimacy of that freedom, them why are you continually attempting to invalidate my position, at all?

Tbh I’m entirely unconvinced by your claim that any participation in “capitalistic evil” immediately invalidates all subsequent discernment of shades of evil or the complex interactions thereof.

But frankly its entirely irrelevant to this thread, unless you believe it supports a position that we do not have the freedom to voice our own reasons for our own choices?

Tbh I’m a bit disappointed, the influx of new users is great. It’s great people are leaving closedsource places and enjoying free and opensource places like lemmy.

Its good seeing new faces and making new friends.

And I get they’ll inevitably bring some of that default “closed is better than open” mindset with them.

Its just disappointing when given the opportunity to learn a bit more about the world of open freedom, instead of considering maybe there might be something new they could learn and potentially enjoy.

Instead they try to drown us out with mindless and (mostly) unsubstantiated downvotes.

And it often turns out to be people who inevitably declare they don’t know how to use linux or couldn’t get it working properly.

So WHY is it when someone admits they don’t really understand the topic, do they think they’re the right person to vote on the legitimacy of the claims being made???

As I mentioned, I’m not here to criticise you for making the choice you have, or defend those who do criticise you for it.

What I am here to defend is our freedom to state the very valid reasons why we are choosing to avoid it as much as possible.

Therefore, it’s unclear to me exactly which stance you are taking in reference to what i said.

Our position is there are at least two core topics for why we choose not go there. They are 1. issues with the product and 2. issues with the company.

With the pool analogy the corner cutting and then further elucidation regarding the escalation of user-hostile features, are both specific criticisms with the windows software itself. Not the company.

Regarding issues with the company, as stated we are not listing reasons for condemning you for your choice but rather listing the reasons why we make our choice as we do.

Therefore, it is unclear exactly which position you are taking which is contrary to this? Everyone will have a different moral line for the myriad of issues when dealing with evil companies and their products/services. Do you wish to tell others where they choose to draw their own lines for their own lives are incorrect? I doubt that’s really the stance you intended to make, so what do you mean, then?

Finally, I’m not sure how much of the history you’re aware of, but microsoft’s open hostility to linux devs & users is extensive and bitter. We have the case of a billion dollar company, actively trying to spoil & ruin the harmless pleasure many people take in a wonderful piece of technology.

This is almost entirely unlike any other “us vs them” technology debate. In nearly every other case, its wealthy corporation vs wealthy corporation with the users caught in the middle. In this case it is literally freedom of the people vs corporate profits. That freedom being actually incredibly important: its not only about the harmless enjoyment of the community. But also, considering the tech trajectory our society is on, very likely serving a critical role for actual human rights today and tomorrow.

As stated many times, you are welcome to your choice, and your choice is understandable. But it would really be alot healthier if people take the time to appreciate the breadth of the problem, and perhaps better appreciate why we make our choices the way we do.

OR considering that may involve more effort than you have time for - fair enough - at least appreciate this is a topic some of the people who clearly have looked into it, might know some things about it you haven’t had time to learn yet.

why is that? it’s not punching down when its a billion dollar company

I’ll bite, I down voted you because I think you’re missing the point of what the above commenters are talking about. It’s not about whether it’s punching down/up to criticize Microsoft.

It literally started with a question.

why is that?

As yet noone has even answered that question.

Why is it worse? You’ve gone to the trouble to downvote, and reply, yet still haven’t answered the question.

Tbh most partisan camp debates in technology are pretty tiresome: ios vs android, playstation vs xbox. They all have pros and cons.

(Even linux and windows both have their pros and cons.)

That said, there’s a huge difference between comparing two commercial products both from competing companies vs a powerful open source tool, with almost limitless potential. Virtually ANY complaint you have about linux CAN be fixed by the public, even YOU if you put in the appropriate effort/resources.

The fact that you can freely boot into modern hardware with something offering that kind of power & freedom openly to the public is frankly incredible.

So tbh it’s pretty difficult to see why it is worse.