Remember when the Afghan people had a phenomenally well equipped and well trained army, and then they just gave up inside a week because things were “hard”?
Like if you don’t give a shit…no one is going to give a harder shit about you than you will.
Yeah man, I feel sorry for the people who will have to live under the fucking Taliban, but we’ve spent way too much time, money and blood on Afghanistan already.
We shouldn’t have been there in the first place, but for them to just instantly roll over to the Taliban… Just compare it to Ukraine, where they are fighting for their lives and freedom against a much more powerful enemy.
It’s long past time for Afghanistan to deal with their own problems.
Yeah, like what do they expect? Another foreign military intervention?
That will not happen again for decades at best. Longer if all the developed nations really learn from America’s mistake this time.
Sure, we can sanction them, but any aid just gets intercepted, so that’s out. It sucks so many Afghans are suffering under the system, but it’s the system they let happen. Did they want to be an occupied country forever? Was this a fight America was expected to wage indefinitely? Twenty years was already too long.
They should have trained the Afghani women who have an actual reason to fight against the Taliban, instead of the lazy men who instantly capitulated.
Tbf Afghanistan defeated a much stronger Russia back in the 80s.
With less help than Ukraine gets.
Edit: so the downvotes are just ignorant of history or are they trying to rewrite it to suit their own agendas? Regardless, not a good sign for the future.
Tbf Afghanistan defeated a much stronger Russia back in the 80s.
Those were pretty much the Taliban though. No one doubts the will to fight of the Taliban.
Well the Taliban took over the pieces after the U.S. abandoned the Mujhaideen.
Funny how history repeats.
The downvotes are probably because you seem to ‘ignore’ the US role in arming the Taliban.
See below. This was addressed yesterday.
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I wonder if it was “hard” or “I want the Taliban to take over.” There’s probably a decent amount of people in that area that can fundamentally agree with the Taliban. it’s a religious and oppression group. If you’re ideologically aligned with the Taliban, and male, you’re probably either as good or better of under them.
Not saying this is everything but I imagine there’s at least some people who are ok with the new government, mostly because they don’t care about others over their own self.
First of all, none of these women were in that army so painting this as the consequences of their actions seems a bit dishonest.
Second, I remember when they were alleged to have a phenomenal army but it turned out most of that was on paper not real.
The facade crumbled.
I wonder how things would have turned out if the US had built up divisions of the Afghan army with women.
none of these women were in that army so painting this as the consequences of their actions seems a bit dishonest.
What makes you think that these women who choose their culture as dignity would oppose their rulers which they gained power from it?
I’m sorry but I don’t understand this question, could you maybe rephrase it or explain your reasoning? I don’t think these women have “gained power” it seems like the opposite.
First woman quoted in the article (a refugee):
“I had a beautiful house and a job that I loved. I lived with my family, I had friends and I was pregnant. But I lost my baby, I fled my country without my husband and now I live here alone. I’m safe, but do you think I’m happy, do you think I can sleep at night knowing my family’s situation in Afghanistan?”
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Well, that sounds like propaganda videos where they had already surrendered and the taliban wanted to make it seem like all it would take was one person to make people volunteer…
But, you’re also talking about all the equipment that was expensive but neither side had the knowledge or equipment to maintain, right?
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Do you have more info about what happened then?
About why the Taliban took over so quickly?
Yeah, Afghanistan isn’t a normal country. It’s a loose collection of tribes that have been pitted against each other for centuries. There’s no unity, they’ve never really had a federal government just other countries that used militaries to try and force compliance from all the tribal leaders.
So when America left with like 2 weeks notice, everyone just went back to their tribes. The “Afghan Army” had better equipment, but it was equipment they just couldn’t maintain. After a couple weeks of fighting it would have all broken down and they’d have ran out of ammo. Meanwhile the Taliban had supply lines and decades of experience fighting with their equipment.
The Taliban is just a coalition of the most extreme tribes. One that was trained in gurellia warfare by America and is actually united in their religious extremism.
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On second thought, there’s no point in replying anymore.
Yup. One of the first things we did in the invasion of Afghanistan was ally with the northern tribes. The Taliban mainly represent one ethnic group and constantly engaged in ethnic cleansing of Shia, other tribes, and various minorities.
They have had millennia of engaging in guerilla warfare, you could probably go back to the days of Alexander the Great.
Remember that the government is installed by the US and allies. If they actually care, the could have spent some time to find candidates that can gather people around and build a unionized front along with education and infrastructure. The reality is they put a thief in power who is now living somewhere in Europe and enjoying his wealth.
Blaming a victim complaining about their experience or at least expectations is in bad taste.
candidates that can gather people around and build a unionized front along with education and infrastructure
I don’t think that person existed in Afghanistan.
The Afghan army seemed totally incompetent. Examples:
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The ANA never had very good moral, just read the experiences of US troops with them.
Remember when the Afghan people had a phenomenally well equipped and well trained army, and then they just gave up inside a week because things were “hard”?
You didn’t read the Afghanistan Papers did you?
I’d have more sympathy for the people of Afghanistan if they had actually fought back against the Taliban.
People say that America lost in Afghanistan, but we were basically the only thing propping up democracy. The people themselves made no effort.
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Nah, they didn’t make an effort. The Taliban was welcomed when they rolled in. The US military expected there would be resistance, but the Taliban had pretty much captured everything before we were even gone.
Yeah agree. Like what does the world need to do for your country internal problem.
Did the USA invade for altruistic reasons? I highly doubt so
Outside of Kabul it seemed the average rural person felt that they had to choose between a temporary US occupation supporting an uninterested government vs the Taliban who were all around them on a daily basis and would take over the second the US left. They did the safe thing and sided with the Taliban.
At some point, the people of Afghanistan should be able to take control of their own country. How can a vast majority of the people sit there and let a tiny percentage dictate the lives and rules for everyone? Kick the Taliban out of your country.
How can a vast majority of the people sit there and let a tiny percentage dictate the lives and rules for everyone?
As an American looking at American policy right now…that’s ironic.
No shit. The second we left they fell apart. No resistance.
As far as I’m concerned we should only help those that help themselves, like Ukraine is doing. Afghanistan has always been Taliban simps. Those women know where their men sleep and have knives ffs.
I suppose the devil they know is better than the one they don’t know.
The problem is that “the people of Afghanistan” don’t see themselves as a united people. Regional and tribal ties are far, far stronger in the region than any true sense of national identity outside of “let’s cooperate just long enough to kick these fucking foreigners out”. Immediately after that’s accomplished, the region regresses into very old-school power politics and warlord fiefdoms. This has happened twice now in the space of 50 years. The truly galling point, though, is that US leaders and officials should have known this… but there were effectively zero coherent plans to handle that aspect of the occupation.
How can a vast majority of the people sit there and let a tiny percentage dictate the lives and rules for everyone?
Is that a serious question?
The vast majority of the world lives like that…
Even in first world countries.
I’m American, and a very very tiny percentage of other Americans hold the vast amount of wealth and use it to buy the majority of both parties off so that literally no matter who wins any election, they’re going to be someone that puts corporate profits over the average American.
Where do you live that’s truly led by the majority?
Fun fact, the dynamic where the majority class controls the “rules” is called communism. Maybe they want us to give it a go here in the US?
Same way stuff happens in the USA… inequality n disparity keeps growing… The ruling / wealthy 🤑 class keeps consolidating wealth n we all just go on with our lives… Don’t we?
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A lot of the Afghanistan problem is that they have no national identity, they’re a collection of tribes and warlords, so the only united group in the country is the Taliban, and the Taliban has a lot of help from Pakistan and other regional powers.
What in the racist fuck is this generalization?
IDK exactly what the “world” can do here. The Taliban is the legit government of Afghanistan now (well, maybe legit should be in quotes). Do people want another war to take out the Taliban? That didn’t go so well the first time. And there are already sanctions on the Taliban’s government but other countries are still willing to trade with them.
I don’t see any international fix working here. There needs to be internal change. Whether that’s reform, coup, or whatever.
I hate it when you see the media (e.g. the BBC) going on about the latest awful government somewhere or some nation falling apart. The implication of course is they want someone to march in and save it, of course this means using force because the people there who are the problem aren’t going to leave willingly. So then you end up with a war and all the things that go with war (our guys dying, civilians get killed, accidents, etc) and then the media comes back and says how awful this war is, how civilians are getting killed, how things aren’t much better, etc.
You aren’t forgotten. US and allies accepted the decision that was made within a week of us leaving. The country, as a whole, collectively chose the easy route of Taliban rule. That decision has consequences.
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They’re not saying the withdrawal was quick, they’re saying the takeover after the withdrawal was quick. Which it was, Pentagon officials said it was faster than all their estimates.
https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/08/16/how-afghanistan-fell-to-the-taliban-so-quickly.html
The gov had poor control over the countryside and the Taliban had infiltrated everywhere and was just laying in wait. The irony is they are now fighting another, even more extreme Islamic group, Al Qaeda.
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Exclude the actual government of the country from negotiations, and then wonder why they stand by and watch when you pull out, and your enemy storms the gates…
Yeah, I mean, we were over there for well over a decade trying to fix that shit and the country as a whole just did not want to change, so we gave up and left. It was a giant waste for everyone involved.
Lol yeah that’s totally what happened in. It definitely wasn’t a scam where we turned Afghanistan into a black hole for contractor money.
It’s unbelievable how naive and arrogant this thread is. How low can you get?
My dumb ass was 16 when it all started and even then I was aware enough to realize it was all about Raytheon, Haliburton, PMCs, etc…
I blame those fucking pieces of shit Cheney and Rumsfield for not only stealing a potential future from me (because after realizing all that I said fuck joining the military) but obviously worse all the death and destruction that was caused for their financial benefit…
Trump had a line “they’re not sending their best here” when being a dickhole in reference to immigration, but honestly that quote goes especially well for pretty much all of our politicians.
trying to fix
😂😂👆
You didn’t go to fix shit. You went because you wanted revenge. You stayed because a lot of people made money.
Everybody told you back them you can’t fix Afghanistan’s issues by force. You just killed a lot of Afghanis for nothing.
Then you went to Iraq.
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I don’t really get the stance of “you wanted revenge, bloodthirsty revenge murica”. Did you forget that innocent lives were taken, unasked?
What the fuck would YOU do? Sit there and twiddle your thumbs all like “oh…3,000 people, never forget. sniff”.
That is revenge. You think it is justified revenge. Perhaps it was though history did not start on 11/09/2001. It certainly is not “we were over there for well over a decade trying to fix that shit” as the guy I replied too said.
You also kind of forgot about the guy that actually arranged the attack for a few years while many more people died than in Afghanistan and Iraq than in WTC, most of them having nothing to do with the attacks.
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That still though, doesn’t mean that those lives lost in WTC didn’t matter. That’s what you’re making it sound like. “DUUHHH THE CIVILIANS LOST IN AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ COMBINED OUTWEIGH THE BODY COUNT OF THE WTC TRAGEDY SO UHHH THAT MEAN THEIR LIVES MATTER MORE!” The whole damn war was a shitshow, again nothing new. But don’t go around pretending that there wasn’t a trigger somewhere for why shit happened as you’ve just demonstrated. You’re ignorant.
All lives matter the same. Therefore tens of thousands of lives matter more than a few thousand.
Of course you clearly believe American lives matter more. You clearly believe the war in Afghanistan was justified. I am neither ignorant nor barking at the wrong tree. I am barking at another racist American.
You also kind of forgot about the guy that actually arranged the attack for a few years while many more people died than in Afghanistan and Iraq than in WTC, most of them having nothing to do with the attacks.
You were completely right until this point. It was absolutely for revenge, and the Bush Administration preyed on that desire to mislead the US into an awful war where even more innocent people lost their lives.
But there’s no need to minimize the lives lost on 9/11. We can grieve for both. Arguing about which matters more because more people died takes away from the more important point – a tragedy was used to manipulate people into supporting another tragedy.
The feeling there was…
- The gov didn’t care about anyone outside of Kabul.
- They knew the US wouldn’t be there forever and the ANA had shitty moral. The Taliban however would be there when the US left and people didn’t want to be targeted for revenge killings, etc.
20-year boondoggle, you know… The easy route…
Many people including Americans are suffering and have been forgotten because of what happened over there. I guarantee there are many that wish they had done things differently and just minded their own business. Patriotism is a powerful con.
We spent twenty years fighting their battles for them, $2.3 trillion spent helping build up their infrastructure, supplying them with weapons and training, and trying to help them build a legitimate democratic government. After all our efforts, expenses, and American lives lost, it took the Taliban just ten days to retake the entire country. Freedom can’t be given it has to be won, and frankly they weren’t willing to fight for theirs… and I say this as a disabled combat veteran who lost dozens of friends to this conflict either in combat or to their own hands once they returned home. What a waste.
To be fair Russia, the UK and the US also took turns totaly destroying the country for the better part of the last century. We can’t give them their freedom back on a plate but we shouldn’t forget that we’re also the ones that took it away. That money and those lives weren’t some kind of gift they were an attempt to undo the collective damage we’ve done. Well the American/British money and lives, pretty sure Russia didn’t give a crap.
The Soviets had their go at nationbuilding. Their puppet state survived eight years after they withdrew as well, which is a fair bit longer than the ten days we managed.
You can go back to Alexander the Great. Mountainous regions have always been notoriously hard to control with other regions like the Caucasus and the Balkans as examples. They tend to be fragmented and loosely connected.
I agree, the hard truth is it’s on them. The people of Afghanistan collectively lacked the will to fight for their freedom. It’s a stark contrast with places like Ukraine.
Wow I’m american and this is some american kool aide if I’ve ever seen it. The Taliban is evil but the framing of the invasion and occupation as some noble humanitarian effort is like newsmax propaganda.
Some good things did happen. More girls went to schools. You can look up data and see the infant mortality rate plummet.
We didn’t go over there for humanitarian reasons, and our true goal wasn’t noble – but there was still good that came of it. Enough good for them to ask us why we’ve forgotten about them. And I don’t blame them – but I also can’t blame us.
You’re right, but it seems like this post is asking for it again. Whatever framing it’s given, it didn’t work and was a massive waste, of lives and money.
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We built schools and got girls into the schools. The first thing the Taliban did was close all of those schools.
Who’s We, why We went there in the first place and on what grounds?
We went there because the Taliban didn’t want to kick Al Qaeda out and 9-11 had just happened.
O fuck off. You invaded them and then left. 2.3 trillion went to pay your military and contractors.
“You should’ve extended the war by a few more decades!”
There was an attempt at nation building and it didn’t go well. Afghanistan and the Middle East is a culturally complicated place, it’s mostly tribes and smaller villages with a lot of history. It’s hard to point fingers at the US for leaving when a decent chunk of the country either didn’t care, or didn’t want them there anymore.
Even if the US intentions were good (and they were not great, basically being revenge for 9/11), who wants to be ruled by a foreign invader?
If some alien superpower invaded the USA tomorrow, gave them free healthcare, 40 days holiday a year from work, legalised abortion again and mountains of affordable housing in the places people actually wanted to live, they’d still fight back. Even if it meant things going back to how they were before.
Bold of you to think people would fight back against that lol.
That actually sounds incredible
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Just like Afghans, many liked the US, the taliban didn’t. There’d be a percentage of the population fighting tooth and nail.
And it creates the question – what should the aliens do long term?
If they leave, what do they owe those of us who liked them?
I really struggle with this. I can’t say as an American that we don’t owe them anything. But I also can’t say that it’s our job to go back and invade once more. We’ve done that. I don’t know what changes we could make to change the outcome.
Sorry for the sudden musings, haha
People won’t fight back against anything because they are morally opposed to fighting back, regardless of what’s actually happening.
They would. Just point anyone they think deserves less then themselves and they Will fight tooth and nail. So so many americans will gladly cut off their nose to spite their face
I would take that deal. All hail our Alien overlords. Now, the south would not be pleased … but they have a losing record in armed conflict.
I would not fight that. I already think that we are ruled by outsiders (rich, geriatric boomers).
Most boomers are just who the oligarchs have pointed angry millennials at.
They’ll watch you fight for crumbs while they scoff cake. This is Bumfights for them.
I mean, literally any other country in the world is welcome to step in and fix it. Imagine the bragging rights at the next UN summit. “We fixed Afghanistan!” No? No takers? Alright.
As cynical as a take as that is, yeah national building hard espically out there. People will resist change, you have very little infrastructure to work with, and a poor little esucation population
The proper noun Middle East needs work.
Thank you
The second part sounds a bit like a copout. They have done military interventions in a lot of different regions. The US has ransacked a growing number of countries just to get rid of a small amount of “baddies”.
You don’t get to destroy shit and leave. If you play world police, start doing the whole job, not parts of it. And I’m totally fine with US starting less interventions because they don’t wanna clean up after themselves. Probably a net positive given the history in the middle east.
I think at this point it’s best that the administration just got out because it appeared it was never going to get better. Just my perspective at reading about the attempts to build administration and actually get local citizens to build and manage their own sustainable government structures in place and it never taking off. Just read anything about the army’s attempts to create a competent Afghani security force.
We never should have intervened in the first place, and should have gotten out as soon as we could.
I agree with you, but also… they absolutely did not want us there. America isn’t trying to colonize.
The people in power are corrupt, the world around. Religious states, doubly so.
We can’t even control the zealots rising up in our own country.
The thing is, we weren’t there for a decade just destroying things. A few years, absolutely. But the rest of the time was spent trying to clean up and rebuild. Maybe the US just isn’t good at that, but what else can we do at this point? Returning would just be meddling again and earn ire.
Rebuilding translates to funding the lavish lifestyles of our puppets. Very colonial.
I’m not sure what people want, exactly. 20 years of occupation wasn’t enough to change their culture even a little bit. Do they want permanent American occupation? That’s clearly untenable for many reasons. I don’t want America to be the world police, and I don’t want them invading countries on moral grounds.
Any aid given to Afghanistan immediately ends up in the hands of the Taliban now.
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No, the Spanish Republicans definitely put up a real fight. If the Afghan Army had the same mettle as the Republican Army of Spain, then the Taliban would have been kicked back to Pakistan because of massive materiel superiority.
100% . The dude you responded to is just wrong. Franco started the Civil War in 1936, but it went until 1939. He had a lot of the army plus the backing of the Nazis. The Spanish Republicans had… Picasso and Ernest Hemingway.
The painting “Guernica” is about Nazis bombing a small town. If you have to kill a horse and some children with a bomber, you aren’t going to be winning any time soon.
It was mainly women’s lives that were improved without the Taliban, and sadly those aren’t important enough.
Might as well annex Afghanistan and make them a state of the Union, then some changes could happen.
Not to be a dick but if they don’t like it they could do something about it themselves. Hoping that “the world will do something” rarely has good results.
Yeah haven’t they been at war or occupied for like 200 years? The withdrawal was a clusterfuck but it was never not going to be one. Idk what the rest of the world can do at this point. I read China wants to tap into those sweet lithium mines. Let them give it a shot I guess?
Honestly, I’d love to see them try. Mostly because it’d be hilarious for them to be inconvenienced, but still
Putting aside the humanitarian aspect and destabilizing the region etc etc I agree it would be an entertaining show. From what I’ve heard maybe we won’t have to wait very long.
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The Taliban are not the Nazis, not even close. They’re a guerilla group, and not a particularly effective one. They lost almost all engagements with the US and allied armies. They were mainly good at running away and doing drugs in the mountains.
The problem is, the people of Afghanistan do not have the ability or desire to be a unified country right now, so there is no one to oppose them. The Yugoslav Partizans (who did fight the Nazis) would have beat their brains in. The IRA would have easily beaten them. There are even modern day rebel groups who would beat them.
The opposition was mostly murdered by the Taliban before and after the fall. The military aid we gave the Afghans was also entirely fake and we allowed it be stolen.
But then people in this thread have the arrogance to come in here and go on rants about how it’s all the Afghans’ fault when we literally occupied their country for 20 fucking years and achieved nothing. The US is fully responsible for his situation.
It’s disgusting to see Americans attack Afghans in this thread because they’re butthurt that a woman said Afghans were forgotten, which they absolutely were. No wonder so many people in the world hate us.
The world spent trillions of dollars and thousands of lives to help you. It didn’t take.
Yep didn’t we remove their horrid government, hold elections, try to support a more liberal government through multiple decades in the longest war the US has ever engaged in?
And wasn’t that a massive overreach of our role in the first place?
I feel for these women but this headline can go get fucked.
Gotta love all the 'muricans trying to defend their exceptionalism and blaming Afghanistan and its people for the country’s woes.
USA never cared about Afghanistan or its people. In the 1980s, it, along with Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and United Kingdom, helped fund the muhajideen fighting against the Soviet Union (Soviet-Afghan war). As soon as the war was over and the soviets retreated, the funding dried up.
After 9/11, USA went into a bloodlust, invading Afghanistan because they (Taliban) wanted proof that Osama bin Laden was involved with the terrorist attack first. bin Laden fled to Pakistan, but the USA didn’t invade them, nor threatened to. Instead, USA just kept their boots on foreign soil because, hey, free real state and cheap poppy, amirite?
Also, since at least 2010, it’s been publicly known that Pakistan has been helping the Taliban in fighting for Afghanistan. Yet, there were no sanctions, no tough talks, no threats, nothing, against Pakistan.
After 9/11, USA went into a bloodlust, invading Afghanistan because they (Taliban) wanted proof that Osama bin Laden was involved with the terrorist attack first. bin Laden fled to Pakistan, but the USA didn’t invade them, nor threatened to. Instead, USA just kept their boots on foreign soil because, hey, free real state and cheap poppy, amirite?
Just to add to your point.
What do you think should happen going forward? How should the US address this? How should your country, and the rest of the UN address this?
It’s very easy to look at the past and just lay blame. I can’t and won’t argue with you on any of that (except the Mujahideen but I’ve discussed that in a different comment). Looking forward however, I don’t see any paths that aren’t just a retread of what was already done. And I don’t know if we could’ve done anything differently which would have a good chance of leading to a different outcome. I legitimately want to know what you think, because I’m at a loss.
Considering that some tribes still remembered and resented the British from their colonial abuses, you can bet your ass Afghanis won’t forgive the USA anytime soon. If any president actually had the balls and humility to admit the USA fucked up big time, committed an international crime and several war crimes, and was actually willing to work together with the current government, under certain conditions, like ensuring women regain some of their lost rights, to repair some of those wrongs, that would go a long way. It’s not going to happen, and my guess is mainly because many other countries would start to pester the USA to admit wrongdoings against them, too.
It’s very easy to look at the past and just lay blame
The irony is that USA apparently didn’t learn anything from invading Vietnam, or watching the soviets invade Afghanistan 20 years prior.
As for what I think, apparently Pakistan and Iran will step in and work as “good neighbors”. Women will still be treated like slaves and neither neighbor will bat an eye, which is horrible. If the Taliban is still being so heavily helped by the Pakistani government, then Afghanistan will just be their puppet. In that case, pressuring Pakistan to pressure the Taliban into being less radical would be more likely to yield results with lower resistance. Considering that the USA never hinted at strong arming Pakistan, despite having several bases on their territory AND knowing of their ties with Taliban, then that is unlikely to happen in the future. The “why” for that is what I’d love to know.
It’s also rather weird when you look at Iran-Pakistan relations, which seem to be very good, despite one being a USA bogeyman and the other being an ally.
What do they expect? Permanent US occupation? If they really expect that, then they’re going to need to make themselves a US territory or deal with themselves.
Did they expect the USA to invade in the first place?
Yeah, that’s America’s whole thing
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The organization ended up fracturing, and one of those factions went on to become a terrorist organization. Not all of them though.
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Ok, they have our empathy and interest. How does that translate into meaningful physical action?
It translated pretty easily for 2 decades. Then an orange chimp decided he didn’t care just like he doesn’t care about anything his country commits to and left. Then Biden just pushed it through while the Afghanistan government was unready and countless American sympathisers and supporters still had not been extracted just because he also doesn’t give a sh*t about promises his country makes. America leaving was inevitable. The taliban retaking was almost handed to them by how America decided to withdraw.
There was no way the ANA would have held on for long after the US left, held on for a little longer, maybe.
There was no way the Taliban wasn’t going to eventually win in some capacity.
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Thoughts and prayers won’t make the Taliban go away lol
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What is yours? How would you have supported them without actually helping the Taliban?
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I never said that. But it’s clearly not yours, so please elaborate on what yours is.
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What do you think it should look like? I’m not pleased with the situation but I don’t know what we could do differently.
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When externals were (unsuccesfully) trying to change something in the country, it was a total bust. I read in these comments that intentions were not pure from America, and I can imagine that. I also saw interviews with US military personal after they came back from Afghanistan, who seemed to genuinely want to help, but had to deal with a lot of corruption, low education, internal theft and child abuse (Bachi Bazi). Now no one is helping, and even though I’d like for the local population to live free lives, I don’t even know how one would start to help. The Taliban will just hide and guerilla it’s way back after occupation has dissapated. It seems like a real life Kobayashi Maru situation. No winners, only losers here :(
It reminds me, I read about veterans who went to volunteer and fight for Ukraine because they wanted to help, and they felt like they hadn’t in Afghanistan.
Afghanistan is full of a bunch of small tribes. They all hate each other and refuse to work together. Just go Google “dancing boy parties Afghanistan” you will quickly lose any sympathy for the people and culture. The US had to turn a blind eye to pedophile parties, which are a time honored tradition, in order to keep the peace.
The forces the US trained and equipped were basically the dregs of society that would be in prison in most countries. They would steal and sell shit to the Taliban. Claiming to have driven many miles on patrol to syphon and sell the gas was common practice. They sold the guns and trucks. There is no helping this country. It’s going to be a shit show until they get past their tribal hatred and work together.
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Fuck me for wanting one as a trans person, amirite?
Can’t believe the victim blaming going on in this thread. What the fuck? You people can’t understand that ordinary people didn’t want to rise up and risk their lives? They weren’t asking for help from citizens of other countries like them, they were asking for help from other militaries since their own failed them. Yet, the people are to blame? How is that a popular opinion? The complete lack of empathy from the privileged is alarming.
It’s kind of similar to Russia right now; in order for the country to change - and it NEEDS to change - ordinary people would need to take drastic action. The USA in Afghanistan kind of demonstrates just how incredibly hard it is for even an ultra-powerful external force to do that.
Heck, look at formerly-Nazi Germany. It’s now a stupendous place to live, but look at what needed to get it there. In addition to multiple countries toppling the regime, they needed Germans to be active about their beliefs in the future of their nation, to the point they were willing to literally dismantle a wall.
I don’t claim to be able to give them a guidebook, but I definitely think when the Taliban does fall, it would have to come at least from heavy, confrontational, violent rejection of them from the locals.
In fairness, outside of three decades or so in the 20th century, Germany has been one of the nicest places in the world to live in for at least the past 200.
Unfortunately, ordinary people did rise up and risk their lives, against the US and NATO. It wasn’t just that their military failed them, this wasn’t some battlefield loss, or a powerful regime keeping an iron hold on the populace, the military and the people just decided to side with the Taliban, it’s what they voted for in the most primal and basic election that exists.
That doesn’t mean that I’m not sympathetic to the plight of a lot of people that are suffering, there are a lot of people in westernized cities that have lost their freedom and their way of life because of what the rest of their country chose, but that also doesn’t mean that it’s right to cause even more blood and death to override that choice, just because we identify with the oppressed more than the Taliban. That type of mentality is exactly what made the US and NATO so hated in the region, and frankly, I have no reason to think that if we did it again it wouldn’t end with exactly the same result
You say people, but what you mean is men.
and women
No, I think it’s safe to say a lot of the women views Taliban control with dread.
I don’t think that’s at all safe to say. Do you know how many American Women resisted the right to vote, thinking that politics would be “dirty” for them to get into? Womens suffrage didn’t move forward in a meaningful way until American culture, women included, moved past those ideas. Internalized oppression is a very real thing, and cultures are often enforced by everybody that’s a part of them. You can say that living under the taliban is far worse for women, I’m not arguing that, but people and cultures don’t always evaluate their options so rationally. Plenty of mothers enforce the culture’s oppressive rules on their daughters because it’s what they believe is right, and it’s what they were raised in. Also, plenty of women have just as much reason to hate the US as the men, they’ve lost family and friends to drone bombings and war. It’s totally fair for you to think women would be insane to support the taliban, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.
Again, no group is a monolith. There are obviously lots of women who are terrified to lose their freedom, their options for education, and their way of life, but I don’t think we can assume that that is all, or even a majority, of women just because that’s what we think they should want.
I think this is a situation where there just aren’t good answers. I prefer to draw a distinction between the politicians and cowards who handed the keys to the Taliban, vs the women and men and everyday people who opposed the Taliban.
It’s unfair and gross to blame them. It’s also unfair though for them to blame us. We spent a lot of time in Afghanistan. American blood watered the soil, but we saw beautiful flowers bloom. Women were uplifted. The infant mortality rate plummeted. People voted for their leaders.
What more could we do, at this point? I’d like to think that if we had armed more of the uplifted people, they would’ve maintained their government and continued to fight the Taliban. I tell myself that partially though because if that isn’t true, then there truly was nothing different we could’ve done or do now. We’d have to annex territory into a state, maybe.
A full military occupation followed by several years of constructing a new government like what was done in Germany or Japan might have had a chance at working. Our efforts were always half-hearted. There were never enough boots on the ground to properly police the population and there was no political will to try.
Other militaries DID go in and pushed out the Taliban and you know what happened? The people, especially in the rural areas, were indifferent at best and frequently hostile. They didn’t ask for anyone to “help them”, even if they politely accepted it but they still saw them as outsiders vs the Taliban who were at least from there. They also knew the US and others weren’t going to be there forever and the day would eventually come when they’d leave and then what? The Taliban would be there to fill the void. The moral in the ANA was crap so they weren’t going to stop them. So the people kept on the best terms with both sides best they could and tried not to piss off the Taliban so they wouldn’t take revenge when they returned.
So do you suggest they give up their sovereignty and become a territory of a neighbouring country?
The Taliban is allied with China so it won’t be them, if it’s India then China and Pakistan will see it as justification. Then the next closest neighbour would be the US but the people aren’t willing. And if you throw out the Taliban it’s not going to solve anything because they will just forever war
Yeah I hate that and am surprised to see that on lemmy
Reading those comments gives feelings of wtf
