The image is taken from Zhihu, a Chinese Quora-like site.
The prompt is talking about give a design of a certain app, and the response seems to talk about some suggested pages. So it doesn’t seem to reflect the text.
But this in general aligns with my experience coding with llm. I was trying to upgrade my eslint from 8 to 9, and ask chatgpt to convert my eslint file, and it proceed to spit out complete garbage.
I thought this would be a good task for llm because eslint config is very common and well-documented, and the transformation is very mechanical, but it just cannot do it. So I proceed to read the documents and finished the migration in a couple hour…
I asked ChatGPT with help about bare metal 32-bit ARM (For the Pi Zero W) C/ASM, emulated in QEMU for testing, and after the third iteration of “use printf for output” -> “there’s no printf with bare metal as target” -> “use solution X” -> “doesn’t work” -> “ude printf for output” … I had enough.
QEMU makes it pretty painless to hook up gdb just FYI; you should look into that. I think you can also have it provide a memory mapped UART for I/O which you can use with newlib to get printf debugging
It’s pretty random in terms of what is or isn’t doable.
For me it’s a big performance booster because I genuinely suck at coding and don’t do too much complex stuff. As a “clean up my syntax” and a “what am I missing here” tool it helps, or at least helps in figuring out what I’m doing wrong so I can look in the right place for the correct answer on something that seemed inscrutable at a glance. I certainly can do some things with a local LLM I couldn’t do without one (or at least without getting berated by some online dick who doesn’t think he has time to give you an answer but sure has time to set you on a path towards self-discovery).
How much of a benefit it’s for a professional I couldn’t tell. I mean, definitely not a replacement. Maybe helping read something old or poorly commented fast? Redundant tasks on very commonplace mainstream languages and tasks?
I don’t think it’s useless, but if you ask it to do something by itself you can’t trust that it’ll work without singificant additional effort.
It catches things like spelling errors in variable names, does good autocomplete, and it’s useful to have it look through a file before committing it and creating a pull request.
It’s very useful for throwaway work like writing scripts and automations.
It’s useful not but a 10x multiplier like all the CEOs claim it is.
Fully agreed. Everybody is betting it’ll get there eventually and trying to jockey for position being ahead of the pack, but at the moment there isn’t any guarantee that it’ll get to where the corpos are assuming it already is.
Which is not the same as not having better autocomplete/spellcheck/“hey, how do I format this specific thing” tools.
Yeah, the AI corpos are putting a lot of effort into parsing big contexts right now. I suspect because they think (probably correctly) that coding is one of the few areas where they could get paid if their AIs didn’t have the memory of a goldfish.
And absolutely agreed that making sure the FOSS alternatives keep pace is going to be important. I’m less concerned about hating the entire concept than I am about making sure they don’t figure out a way to keep every marginally useful application behind a corporate ecosystem walled garden exclusively.
We’ve been relatively lucky in that the combination of PR brownie points and general crappiness of the commercial products has kept an incentive to provide a degree of access, but I have zero question that the moment one of these things actually makes money they’ll enshittify the freely available alternatives they control and clamp down as much as possible.
I use it sometimes, usually just to create boilerplate. Actual functionality it’s hit or miss, and often it ends up taking more time to fix than to write myself.
I wouldn’t say it’s accurate that this was a “mechanical” upgrade, having done it a few times. They even have a migration tool which you’d think could fully do the upgrade but out of the probably 4-5 projects I’ve upgraded, the migration tool always produced a config that errored and needed several obscure manual changes to get working. All that to say it seems like a particularly bad candidate for llms
Then I am quite confused what LLM is supposed to help me with. I am not a programmer, and I am certainly not a TypeScript programmer. This is why I postponed my eslint upgrade for half a year, since I don’t have a lot of experience in TypeScript, besides one project in my college webdev class.
So if I can sit down for a couple hour to port my rather simple eslint config, which arguably is the most mechanical task I have seen in my limited programming experience, and LLM produce anything close to correct. Then I am rather confused what “real programmers” would use it for…
People here say boilerplate code, but honestly I don’t quite recall the last time I need to write a lot of boilerplate code.
I have also tried to use llm to debug SELinux and docker container on my homelab; unfortunately, it is absolutely useless in that as well.
With all due respect, how can you weigh in on programming so confidently when you admit to not being a programmer?
People tend to despise or evangelize LLMs. To me, github copilot has a decent amount of utility. I only use the auto-complete feature which does things like save me from typing 2-5 predictable lines of code that devs tend to type all the time. Instead of typing it all, I press tab. It’s just a time saver. I have never used it like “write me a script or a function that does x” like some people do. I am not interested in that as it seems like a sad crutch that I’d need to customize so much anyway that I may as well skip that step.
Having said that, I’m noticing the copilot autocomplete seems to be getting worst over time. I’m not sure why it worsening, but if it ever feels not worth it anymore I’ll drop it, no harm no foul. The binary thinkers tend to think you’re either a good dev who despises all forms of AI or you’re an idiot who tries to have a robot write all your code for you. As a dev for the past 20 years, I see no reason to choose between those two opposites. It can be useful in some contexts.
PS. did you try the eslint 8 -> 9 migration tool? If your config was simple enough for it, it likely would’ve done all or almost all the work for you… It fully didn’t work for me. I had to resolve several errors, because I tend to add several custom plugins, presets, and rules that differ across projects.
Sorry, the language my original post might seem confrontational, but that is not my intension; I m trying to find value in LLM, since people are excited for it.
I am not a professional programmer nor do I program any industrial sized project at the moment. I am a computer scientist, and my current research project do not involve much programming. But I do teach programming to undergrad and master students, so I want to understand what is a good usecase for this technology, and when can I expect it to be helpful.
Indeed, I am frustrated by this technology, and that might shifted my language further than I intended to. When everyone is promoting this as a magically helpful tool for CS and math, yet I fail to see any good applications for either in my work, despite going back to it every couple month or so.
I did try @eslint/migrate-config, unfortunately it added a good amount of bloat and ends up not working.
Gotcha. No worries. I figured you were coming in good faith but wasn’t certain. Who is pushing llm’s for programming that hard? In my bubble, which often includes Lemmy, most people HATE them for all uses. I get that tech bros and linked in crazies probably push this tech for coding a lot, but outside of that, most devs I know IRL either are lukewarm or dislike llm’s for dev work.
The image is taken from Zhihu, a Chinese Quora-like site.
The prompt is talking about give a design of a certain app, and the response seems to talk about some suggested pages. So it doesn’t seem to reflect the text.
But this in general aligns with my experience coding with llm. I was trying to upgrade my eslint from 8 to 9, and ask chatgpt to convert my eslint file, and it proceed to spit out complete garbage.
I thought this would be a good task for llm because eslint config is very common and well-documented, and the transformation is very mechanical, but it just cannot do it. So I proceed to read the documents and finished the migration in a couple hour…
I asked ChatGPT with help about bare metal 32-bit ARM (For the Pi Zero W) C/ASM, emulated in QEMU for testing, and after the third iteration of “use printf for output” -> “there’s no printf with bare metal as target” -> “use solution X” -> “doesn’t work” -> “ude printf for output” … I had enough.
Sounds like it’s perfectly replicated the help forums it was trained on.
That’s what tends to happen
Did it at least try puts?
QEMU makes it pretty painless to hook up gdb just FYI; you should look into that. I think you can also have it provide a memory mapped UART for I/O which you can use with newlib to get printf debugging
The latter is what I tried, and also kinda wanted ChatGPT to do, which it refused
Can’t you just send prints to serial?
Yes, that was the plan, which ChatGPT refused to do
It’s pretty random in terms of what is or isn’t doable.
For me it’s a big performance booster because I genuinely suck at coding and don’t do too much complex stuff. As a “clean up my syntax” and a “what am I missing here” tool it helps, or at least helps in figuring out what I’m doing wrong so I can look in the right place for the correct answer on something that seemed inscrutable at a glance. I certainly can do some things with a local LLM I couldn’t do without one (or at least without getting berated by some online dick who doesn’t think he has time to give you an answer but sure has time to set you on a path towards self-discovery).
How much of a benefit it’s for a professional I couldn’t tell. I mean, definitely not a replacement. Maybe helping read something old or poorly commented fast? Redundant tasks on very commonplace mainstream languages and tasks?
I don’t think it’s useless, but if you ask it to do something by itself you can’t trust that it’ll work without singificant additional effort.
It catches things like spelling errors in variable names, does good autocomplete, and it’s useful to have it look through a file before committing it and creating a pull request.
It’s very useful for throwaway work like writing scripts and automations.
It’s useful not but a 10x multiplier like all the CEOs claim it is.
Fully agreed. Everybody is betting it’ll get there eventually and trying to jockey for position being ahead of the pack, but at the moment there isn’t any guarantee that it’ll get to where the corpos are assuming it already is.
Which is not the same as not having better autocomplete/spellcheck/“hey, how do I format this specific thing” tools.
Yeah, it’s still super useful.
I think the execs want to see dev salaries go to zero, but these tools make more sense as an accelerator, like giving an accountant excel.
I get a bit more done faster, that’s a solid value proposition.
It’s not much use with a professional codebase as of now, and I say this as a big proponent of learning FOSS AI to stay ahead of the corpocunts
Yeah, the AI corpos are putting a lot of effort into parsing big contexts right now. I suspect because they think (probably correctly) that coding is one of the few areas where they could get paid if their AIs didn’t have the memory of a goldfish.
And absolutely agreed that making sure the FOSS alternatives keep pace is going to be important. I’m less concerned about hating the entire concept than I am about making sure they don’t figure out a way to keep every marginally useful application behind a corporate ecosystem walled garden exclusively.
We’ve been relatively lucky in that the combination of PR brownie points and general crappiness of the commercial products has kept an incentive to provide a degree of access, but I have zero question that the moment one of these things actually makes money they’ll enshittify the freely available alternatives they control and clamp down as much as possible.
I use it sometimes, usually just to create boilerplate. Actual functionality it’s hit or miss, and often it ends up taking more time to fix than to write myself.
I wouldn’t say it’s accurate that this was a “mechanical” upgrade, having done it a few times. They even have a migration tool which you’d think could fully do the upgrade but out of the probably 4-5 projects I’ve upgraded, the migration tool always produced a config that errored and needed several obscure manual changes to get working. All that to say it seems like a particularly bad candidate for llms
Then I am quite confused what LLM is supposed to help me with. I am not a programmer, and I am certainly not a TypeScript programmer. This is why I postponed my eslint upgrade for half a year, since I don’t have a lot of experience in TypeScript, besides one project in my college webdev class.
So if I can sit down for a couple hour to port my rather simple eslint config, which arguably is the most mechanical task I have seen in my limited programming experience, and LLM produce anything close to correct. Then I am rather confused what “real programmers” would use it for…
People here say boilerplate code, but honestly I don’t quite recall the last time I need to write a lot of boilerplate code.
I have also tried to use llm to debug SELinux and docker container on my homelab; unfortunately, it is absolutely useless in that as well.
With all due respect, how can you weigh in on programming so confidently when you admit to not being a programmer?
People tend to despise or evangelize LLMs. To me, github copilot has a decent amount of utility. I only use the auto-complete feature which does things like save me from typing 2-5 predictable lines of code that devs tend to type all the time. Instead of typing it all, I press tab. It’s just a time saver. I have never used it like “write me a script or a function that does x” like some people do. I am not interested in that as it seems like a sad crutch that I’d need to customize so much anyway that I may as well skip that step.
Having said that, I’m noticing the copilot autocomplete seems to be getting worst over time. I’m not sure why it worsening, but if it ever feels not worth it anymore I’ll drop it, no harm no foul. The binary thinkers tend to think you’re either a good dev who despises all forms of AI or you’re an idiot who tries to have a robot write all your code for you. As a dev for the past 20 years, I see no reason to choose between those two opposites. It can be useful in some contexts.
PS. did you try the eslint 8 -> 9 migration tool? If your config was simple enough for it, it likely would’ve done all or almost all the work for you… It fully didn’t work for me. I had to resolve several errors, because I tend to add several custom plugins, presets, and rules that differ across projects.
Sorry, the language my original post might seem confrontational, but that is not my intension; I m trying to find value in LLM, since people are excited for it.
I am not a professional programmer nor do I program any industrial sized project at the moment. I am a computer scientist, and my current research project do not involve much programming. But I do teach programming to undergrad and master students, so I want to understand what is a good usecase for this technology, and when can I expect it to be helpful.
Indeed, I am frustrated by this technology, and that might shifted my language further than I intended to. When everyone is promoting this as a magically helpful tool for CS and math, yet I fail to see any good applications for either in my work, despite going back to it every couple month or so.
I did try @eslint/migrate-config, unfortunately it added a good amount of bloat and ends up not working.
So I just gived up and read the doc.
Gotcha. No worries. I figured you were coming in good faith but wasn’t certain. Who is pushing llm’s for programming that hard? In my bubble, which often includes Lemmy, most people HATE them for all uses. I get that tech bros and linked in crazies probably push this tech for coding a lot, but outside of that, most devs I know IRL either are lukewarm or dislike llm’s for dev work.