As a queer person, extending the acronym past what is necessary feels like pandering in the best light, and purposely trying to bait ridicule in the worst. The whole point of LGBT was to include anyone on the spectrum that was gay or trans, and the Q was supposed to include anyone who considers themselves queer, even if they don’t meed those parameters. I can understand wanting to include I because intersex people are often left out of the conversation, and I even understand A because there is a lot of debate even within the LGBTQ community itself as to whether asexuals are considered queer or not. But when you start incorporating numbers, symbols, or extending past 5 letters within the acronym, you are defeating the purpose of having an acronym, creating confusion, baiting ridicule, and even making people not explicitly represented in the acronym feel excluded.
And there is already a single, all encompassing, inclusive, one syllable word that describes the community and all who occupy it: “Queer.” It’s easier to say, remember, and hell, even type if you are typing LGBTQ past 5 letters. But because of it being appropriated and used as a slur, there are many even within the community who are even afraid to utter it, let alone identify with it. Which is a god damned shame there is nothing inherently wrong the word, cause even in its original meaning, it meant someone who was outside the norm or otherworldly, and in literature has been used to describe characters like Gandalf, and characters in Shakespeare.
It describes me without having to explain or justify how or why. It describes how I feel as a person, how others see me, how I interact and relate to others. Its an adjective that can be verbed and adverbed. It’s sharp and provocative, yet also warm and natural, like a forest green. People who have adopted and embraced the word for themselves feel the love within the word, and can extend it to others. And even for those outside the community, those who are brave enough to use it when talking in our defense come off as more decisive and confrontational, than the person who thinks adding another letter or number to the acronym will make them seem more legitimate.
It’s time we stop fearing our word. It’s time we recognize the difference between queer as an insult, and queer as a description of who we are, and we need to extend that to people who are willing to talk about us and our struggles or come to our defense. The word is only as evil as we are willing to reject it, and I will be dead in the ground before I let our word be the domain of queerphobes and bigots.
edit: It’s late and I’m going to bed. Apparently some people think I’m a self hating queer for thinking the acronym should be dropped for an all inclusive term, and so be it. It’s late and I want to get some sleep. And a lot of the people making this argument I know haven’t read past the first paragraph, much less to here. Anything clarification they could want can be found here and in my other posts here. Otherwise, if they are not going to put in the effort to read, I’m not going to put in the effort to respond.
edit 2: I wanted to make a separate inclusion because I have had a chance to sleep and cool off, and I wanted to address some of the more combative posts in my replies: I get it. We as a community suffer attacks constantly, even from within the community, so I understand why so many here are on guard and skeptical of my intentions. And I’ll admit, my post probably could be better written. I’m not exactly the best at articulating my thoughts. But the point of my post is not to exclude anyone from the community, but rather embrace a word that includes everyone. I would like to hear counterpoints to my argument, because maybe what I need is a different perspective on the issue. I would love to hear from people who prefer the acronym, and why they feel it maybe more inclusive. I am a flawed human being with many faults. I grew up in a conservative background, and my life up to this point has been trying to unlearn a lot of that. But I did not write this with the intention of excluding or singling out anyone. Forgive me I have done so.
Extending the acronym to cover everyone is becoming ridiculous. I think we just need a word that covers all the bases rather than trying to shoe horn one more letter/number/symbol/wingding that’s already becoming difficult to keep track of. It doesn’t bring attention to any one group, nor does it help individual groups as a whole when you’re summed up into a letter.
I mean, I don’t identify as queer and plenty of my friends don’t. One of my exes did and great for him but this just seems like the wrong argument. There likely just needs to be a technical, non-inflammatory term.
I like it, even tho usually I include a “R” there for romantic minorities(eg people who might not be a sexual minority but are a romantic one) when discussing this with other people, but I guess it could be argued that they still fit into “sexual”.
R or not, I like that it includes everyone without any identity being shoved into a letter or a “+” along with lots of others as if they’re an afterthought, not as important as the ones that get to show up as their own letters.
I hate labels in general. I’m in the Q part (enby) and I’m completely fine with it, I don’t need my own letter, nor do I need to identify with anything.
Can we apply this logic to the flag as well? I thought the rainbow of the pride flag was meant to represent diversity and cover all orientations…like how a rainbow spectrum of light literally covers all colours. Now specific groups are being added and people are finding ways to add another line to represent something. The flag is a mess.
I tend to think of the Progress flag as a product of the times, not as a replacement for the rainbow Pride flag. We added these additional signifiers specifically because those groups were under-represented or under particular attack, not because they aren’t included in the Pride rainbow.
My biggest qualm is a qualm I have with any acronym/abbreviation. If you’re going to introduce a letter that is unknown to many, then define your term. Otherwise, I’m going to assume it’s a typo, or I going to not recognize it.
All acronyms and abbreviations, or at least those that aren’t commonplace, should be defined somewhere adjacent to their use, or else you are excluding people.
Speech/text is only useful if you’re using it in a way that appropriately conveys a message to it’s intended audience.
I had a teacher in highschool (04-08) whose name was B Gay. In his lifetime Gay want from “happy” to a slur.
Machine shop was the best because of him too
I’ve come to realize that whatever it is that causes people to have alternative sexual preferences, I’ve got a little bit of it. However, I’m heterosexual, so I don’t really identify with the community. I could accept the queer label, though.
How to defeat a slur, take it as your own. It’s simply as easy as that.
Growing up I was fat as fuck, people made fun of me all the time. One day I decided it was enough, I started making fun of myself for being fat, suddenly everyone left me alone because it no longer got the response they were trying to get.
Ignoring / getting angry is what they want, turn around and happily scream yeah I’m queer, ya looking for a good time? (For example) ya know what’s gonna happen? Their gonna start stammering and come up with another way to bother you, and when you don’t give in and don’t show a reaction they will end up storming away angrily. Then you have something to laugh at for the rest of the day.
What the fuck do you think pride parades are for?
My grandfather got caught downtown Toronto in one and spent 2 hours throwing slurs. Ya think a single person in that parade cared?
Two spirit is a native cultural thing and I think acknowledging it is a good idea. It used to just be LGBT, why should we stop expanding inclusion the moment you find a word you’re personally comfortable with?
I mean going on your second point, I think it demonstrates the difference between a slur and a descriptor is how it’s used as a word.
Like transgender is neutral term but we see it becoming a scare word by fascists recently by changing how its used in speech. Like “transgendered”, “transgenderism” or “transing” (as a note, it’s kinda scary how the first two no longer set off window’s spellcheck). Basically turning trans as a state of being adjective into a verb makes it seem like an act you can do to someone or have happen to you.
Better question: What makes you think they are not included in LGBT or Queer? Also, I know the inclusion of two spirits within the LGBT acronym is contentious with many native Americans as well. It’s why the pride flag with the native American feathers is frowned upon at many queer events.
If everyone is included in queer why be anything other than the Q community? What elevates some queerness to a place where it deserves recognition on its own and why is some queerness relegated to a bucket labelled “Miscellaneous”?
In case you missed it, we don’t need the acronym at all. We already have one word that describes us all in any form that takes, and making an acronym that is overly long and extends/contracts depending on the whims of the writer is overly complicated and defeats the purpose of having an acronym.
Also, funny how you aren’t going to argue the point that the inclusion of two spirits is controversial within the native American community itself, when that was the point you jumped at me with.
Controversial in a community other than my own means that two spirit isn’t my point to argue for or against. I led with it because it was the thing that was there after the Q, which seemed to be where you were drawing the line in the sand. I’ll concede that point.
The only thing I’d say about adopting “queer” as an umbrella term for all of us is that, as a term of abuse, a lot of us have strong negative associations with it and would hesitate to self-apply it. I use it, I like stealing power back from the bullies in that way, but I’m not gonna force someone to self-apply a slur that dredges up memories of being physically beaten, or their friends killed. An umbrella term could work, but maybe not that one as long as that trauma is still present in the community.
I think you and I agree on more than we may think. At the end of the day, I want everyone in the community to feel not only included, but unified as well.
I understand the word still hurts others, but so do so many other words commonly used within queer spaces. Gay is still used as a slur and pejorative and yet is still used universally amongst the gay community. I think part of the reclamation process is not only using the word whenever you can, but taking pride in the word as you do it. I do mean it when I say I feel warmth and love in the word queer, and I try to extend that to anyone I use it to describe. If someone within the community expressed discomfort in the word though, I wouldn’t use it for them.
And I think at the end of the day you and I can agree we need an all encompassing term. Something that is inclusive, easy to say, versatile, and if possible, steeped in tradition within the queer community, I personally feel queer is the best candidate for that term, but I would be welcoming to better suggestions.
Queer makes me think of weird. Odd. Not normal. I wish gay meant more than just homosexual lol.
I mean I don’t identify with a gender, I don’t have preferences and if I had to label myself that way it would be longer than my name. But I also don’t feel like I’m different or abnormal for not caring if my SO were male, female or whatever they want to be, I’m not abnormal for being part of a spectrum where I don’t see things as feminine or masculine. I don’t feel like I need to be labeled but I also have an easy time blending in with those whose religion and culture is limiting them from who they are.
I guess once more people get comfortable with the fact that it’s normal to be who you are then they’ll start being themselves and lgbt+++++ will just be everyone.
Literally your entire first paragraph is you trying to explain why you get to decide which parts belong, based only on how YOU feel about it. It’s weird you can’t read what you wrote.
I said I understand why people feel the need to include terms that are already covered by the Q in LGBTQ, but overextending the acronym and including symbols and numbers causes confusion, defeats the purpose of the acronym, and makes people who are not included feel left out.
The whole point of my argument was I think queer should be the go to term cause it covers everyone and leaves nobody out.
I have nothing to hide. I’m a dumb irresponsible formerly conservative queer person who is still learning and who says stupid shit all the time, some of it I even come to regret. It’s all there for anyone who wants to judge my character. Happy reading. Hopefully your assessment of me is more forgiving than @Hyperi0n.
You’re like “ I want to hear counterpoints to my argument”.
Okay, well not everyone likes or associates with the general term “queer”.
You say “ I want to support and include people who need it”.
Then act like it my guy, here’s your chance to attempt to understand something separate from yourself that wants to be included and supported. You got this!
As a queer person, extending the acronym past what is necessary feels like pandering in the best light, and purposely trying to bait ridicule in the worst. The whole point of LGBT was to include anyone on the spectrum that was gay or trans, and the Q was supposed to include anyone who considers themselves queer, even if they don’t meed those parameters. I can understand wanting to include I because intersex people are often left out of the conversation, and I even understand A because there is a lot of debate even within the LGBTQ community itself as to whether asexuals are considered queer or not. But when you start incorporating numbers, symbols, or extending past 5 letters within the acronym, you are defeating the purpose of having an acronym, creating confusion, baiting ridicule, and even making people not explicitly represented in the acronym feel excluded.
And there is already a single, all encompassing, inclusive, one syllable word that describes the community and all who occupy it: “Queer.” It’s easier to say, remember, and hell, even type if you are typing LGBTQ past 5 letters. But because of it being appropriated and used as a slur, there are many even within the community who are even afraid to utter it, let alone identify with it. Which is a god damned shame there is nothing inherently wrong the word, cause even in its original meaning, it meant someone who was outside the norm or otherworldly, and in literature has been used to describe characters like Gandalf, and characters in Shakespeare.
It describes me without having to explain or justify how or why. It describes how I feel as a person, how others see me, how I interact and relate to others. Its an adjective that can be verbed and adverbed. It’s sharp and provocative, yet also warm and natural, like a forest green. People who have adopted and embraced the word for themselves feel the love within the word, and can extend it to others. And even for those outside the community, those who are brave enough to use it when talking in our defense come off as more decisive and confrontational, than the person who thinks adding another letter or number to the acronym will make them seem more legitimate.
It’s time we stop fearing our word. It’s time we recognize the difference between queer as an insult, and queer as a description of who we are, and we need to extend that to people who are willing to talk about us and our struggles or come to our defense. The word is only as evil as we are willing to reject it, and I will be dead in the ground before I let our word be the domain of queerphobes and bigots.
edit:
It’s late and I’m going to bed. Apparently some people think I’m a self hating queer for thinking the acronym should be dropped for an all inclusive term, and so be it. It’s late and I want to get some sleep. And a lot of the people making this argument I know haven’t read past the first paragraph, much less to here. Anything clarification they could want can be found here and in my other posts here. Otherwise, if they are not going to put in the effort to read, I’m not going to put in the effort to respond.edit 2: I wanted to make a separate inclusion because I have had a chance to sleep and cool off, and I wanted to address some of the more combative posts in my replies: I get it. We as a community suffer attacks constantly, even from within the community, so I understand why so many here are on guard and skeptical of my intentions. And I’ll admit, my post probably could be better written. I’m not exactly the best at articulating my thoughts. But the point of my post is not to exclude anyone from the community, but rather embrace a word that includes everyone. I would like to hear counterpoints to my argument, because maybe what I need is a different perspective on the issue. I would love to hear from people who prefer the acronym, and why they feel it maybe more inclusive. I am a flawed human being with many faults. I grew up in a conservative background, and my life up to this point has been trying to unlearn a lot of that. But I did not write this with the intention of excluding or singling out anyone. Forgive me I have done so.
Indeed… all extending the acronym does is give the Far Right ammo for their unfunny “Alphabet Cult” jokes
At some point ya just gotta say “Look if you’re not straight and not cis or just think that may be the case. You’re in the club”
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i am really glad you took the time to put all of that into words. i, a queer person, agree completely.
I wish everyone was this rational
Extending the acronym to cover everyone is becoming ridiculous. I think we just need a word that covers all the bases rather than trying to shoe horn one more letter/number/symbol/wingding that’s already becoming difficult to keep track of. It doesn’t bring attention to any one group, nor does it help individual groups as a whole when you’re summed up into a letter.
There’s something in the back of my head telling me it’s not an acronym, is it?
If it was it’d be pronounced ligbitikwitwo
You’re correct, it’s an initialism.
That’s the word thanks!
I mean, I don’t identify as queer and plenty of my friends don’t. One of my exes did and great for him but this just seems like the wrong argument. There likely just needs to be a technical, non-inflammatory term.
I’m glad you like it though.
The most all-encompassing term I’ve seen is sexual minority. Basically non-cis or non-straight
There’s some argument over adopting the term GSM (Gender and Sexual Minorities) as an inoffensive general term.
I like it, even tho usually I include a “R” there for romantic minorities(eg people who might not be a sexual minority but are a romantic one) when discussing this with other people, but I guess it could be argued that they still fit into “sexual”.
R or not, I like that it includes everyone without any identity being shoved into a letter or a “+” along with lots of others as if they’re an afterthought, not as important as the ones that get to show up as their own letters.
I hate labels in general. I’m in the Q part (enby) and I’m completely fine with it, I don’t need my own letter, nor do I need to identify with anything.
Can we apply this logic to the flag as well? I thought the rainbow of the pride flag was meant to represent diversity and cover all orientations…like how a rainbow spectrum of light literally covers all colours. Now specific groups are being added and people are finding ways to add another line to represent something. The flag is a mess.
I tend to think of the Progress flag as a product of the times, not as a replacement for the rainbow Pride flag. We added these additional signifiers specifically because those groups were under-represented or under particular attack, not because they aren’t included in the Pride rainbow.
I know others do but I don’t like the word queer. I say LGBT+.
My biggest qualm is a qualm I have with any acronym/abbreviation. If you’re going to introduce a letter that is unknown to many, then define your term. Otherwise, I’m going to assume it’s a typo, or I going to not recognize it.
All acronyms and abbreviations, or at least those that aren’t commonplace, should be defined somewhere adjacent to their use, or else you are excluding people.
Speech/text is only useful if you’re using it in a way that appropriately conveys a message to it’s intended audience.
Can we make “gay” = happy again?
I had a teacher in highschool (04-08) whose name was B Gay. In his lifetime Gay want from “happy” to a slur. Machine shop was the best because of him too
Glad you had a good teacher.
I’ve come to realize that whatever it is that causes people to have alternative sexual preferences, I’ve got a little bit of it. However, I’m heterosexual, so I don’t really identify with the community. I could accept the queer label, though.
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Right there with you. World has always shat on dudes that don’t fit the traditional “masculine” role.
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It is the intonation that matters more than anything else. The wording itself has very little meaning until it is meant as an insult or a compliment.
How to defeat a slur, take it as your own. It’s simply as easy as that.
Growing up I was fat as fuck, people made fun of me all the time. One day I decided it was enough, I started making fun of myself for being fat, suddenly everyone left me alone because it no longer got the response they were trying to get.
Ignoring / getting angry is what they want, turn around and happily scream yeah I’m queer, ya looking for a good time? (For example) ya know what’s gonna happen? Their gonna start stammering and come up with another way to bother you, and when you don’t give in and don’t show a reaction they will end up storming away angrily. Then you have something to laugh at for the rest of the day.
What the fuck do you think pride parades are for?
My grandfather got caught downtown Toronto in one and spent 2 hours throwing slurs. Ya think a single person in that parade cared?
Lmao “Grandpa how was your day?”
“Pretty good actually. I spent 2 hours shouting slurs at strangers”
Two spirit is a native cultural thing and I think acknowledging it is a good idea. It used to just be LGBT, why should we stop expanding inclusion the moment you find a word you’re personally comfortable with?
LGBTQIAPDSMFC2… at some point you’ve got to consider the cut off otherwise you might as well write out the whole alphabet.
Queer is good to me as there’s a difference between “Ben is queer” and “Ben is a queer”
I liked the MOGAI acronym since by nature it includes all of them but Queer also works as well.
QUILTBAG gets pretty good coverage too. Easy to say and cute, too.
(Queer, qUestioning, Intersex, Lesbian, Transgender, Bisexual, Asexual/Agender, Gay)
I never heard that one before, cool.
I mean going on your second point, I think it demonstrates the difference between a slur and a descriptor is how it’s used as a word.
Like transgender is neutral term but we see it becoming a scare word by fascists recently by changing how its used in speech. Like “transgendered”, “transgenderism” or “transing” (as a note, it’s kinda scary how the first two no longer set off window’s spellcheck). Basically turning trans as a state of being adjective into a verb makes it seem like an act you can do to someone or have happen to you.
Better question: What makes you think they are not included in LGBT or Queer? Also, I know the inclusion of two spirits within the LGBT acronym is contentious with many native Americans as well. It’s why the pride flag with the native American feathers is frowned upon at many queer events.
If everyone is included in queer why be anything other than the Q community? What elevates some queerness to a place where it deserves recognition on its own and why is some queerness relegated to a bucket labelled “Miscellaneous”?
Need to keep backwards compatibility
Backwards Qompatibility
Crazy people recently adopted the Q for QAnon so unfortunately the single letter wouldn’t be great idea anytime soon.
Maybe we need to own the Q so hard that Qanons will be afraid to identify with it.
Q Anon confirmed to be Queer Anon. Queer level access.
This is how you win, and it works
That was rather my point in bringing it up
Because LGBT are the largest groups
I think you made my point for me.
In case you missed it, we don’t need the acronym at all. We already have one word that describes us all in any form that takes, and making an acronym that is overly long and extends/contracts depending on the whims of the writer is overly complicated and defeats the purpose of having an acronym.
Also, funny how you aren’t going to argue the point that the inclusion of two spirits is controversial within the native American community itself, when that was the point you jumped at me with.
Controversial in a community other than my own means that two spirit isn’t my point to argue for or against. I led with it because it was the thing that was there after the Q, which seemed to be where you were drawing the line in the sand. I’ll concede that point.
The only thing I’d say about adopting “queer” as an umbrella term for all of us is that, as a term of abuse, a lot of us have strong negative associations with it and would hesitate to self-apply it. I use it, I like stealing power back from the bullies in that way, but I’m not gonna force someone to self-apply a slur that dredges up memories of being physically beaten, or their friends killed. An umbrella term could work, but maybe not that one as long as that trauma is still present in the community.
I think you and I agree on more than we may think. At the end of the day, I want everyone in the community to feel not only included, but unified as well.
I understand the word still hurts others, but so do so many other words commonly used within queer spaces. Gay is still used as a slur and pejorative and yet is still used universally amongst the gay community. I think part of the reclamation process is not only using the word whenever you can, but taking pride in the word as you do it. I do mean it when I say I feel warmth and love in the word queer, and I try to extend that to anyone I use it to describe. If someone within the community expressed discomfort in the word though, I wouldn’t use it for them.
And I think at the end of the day you and I can agree we need an all encompassing term. Something that is inclusive, easy to say, versatile, and if possible, steeped in tradition within the queer community, I personally feel queer is the best candidate for that term, but I would be welcoming to better suggestions.
Queer makes me think of weird. Odd. Not normal. I wish gay meant more than just homosexual lol. I mean I don’t identify with a gender, I don’t have preferences and if I had to label myself that way it would be longer than my name. But I also don’t feel like I’m different or abnormal for not caring if my SO were male, female or whatever they want to be, I’m not abnormal for being part of a spectrum where I don’t see things as feminine or masculine. I don’t feel like I need to be labeled but I also have an easy time blending in with those whose religion and culture is limiting them from who they are. I guess once more people get comfortable with the fact that it’s normal to be who you are then they’ll start being themselves and lgbt+++++ will just be everyone.
This is the same type of self hating bigotry that made the Bisexuals unwelcome at pride and transgender people shit on for 30 years.
Fuck you and anyone who thinks like you.
For advocating for an all inclusive term rather than an acronym that can be chopped to exclude people?
Yeah fuck me I guess.
Well you’re doing it by trying to exclude the parts you don’t agree with…
What about the word queer implies that?
Literally your entire first paragraph is you trying to explain why you get to decide which parts belong, based only on how YOU feel about it. It’s weird you can’t read what you wrote.
I said I understand why people feel the need to include terms that are already covered by the Q in LGBTQ, but overextending the acronym and including symbols and numbers causes confusion, defeats the purpose of the acronym, and makes people who are not included feel left out.
The whole point of my argument was I think queer should be the go to term cause it covers everyone and leaves nobody out.
Don’t bother. Looked at thier history. They are a far right troll.
I have nothing to hide. I’m a dumb irresponsible formerly conservative queer person who is still learning and who says stupid shit all the time, some of it I even come to regret. It’s all there for anyone who wants to judge my character. Happy reading. Hopefully your assessment of me is more forgiving than @Hyperi0n.
You’re like “ I want to hear counterpoints to my argument”.
Okay, well not everyone likes or associates with the general term “queer”.
You say “ I want to support and include people who need it”.
Then act like it my guy, here’s your chance to attempt to understand something separate from yourself that wants to be included and supported. You got this!
This is the brain of the terminally online
How I picture the above commenter
Me or
I’m bi, I think you’re insane.