On October 14 Microsoft wants to turn [your computer] into junk. It may seem like it continues to work after that date.
I don’t begrudge KDE for fishing for converts. It’s a perfectly reasonable idea and hey, already more structured marketing than most Linux initiatives ever get around to deploying.
The page does highlight some of the contradictions in the W10 EoL being the great big hope for a major Linux transition for average users. For one thing… yeah, it won’t seem like all those computers keep working, they will keep working. Indefinitely. Having to explain to people that their perfectly working computer is actually not working despite all available evidence is a bit of an issue.
The whole page is a who’s who of flawed arguments Linux advocates keep impotently making at Windows users. It may be more useful as a guide for the things Linux contributors should be focusing on fixing than as an outreach tool.
Just for a few examples:
For the technically minded, need to connect to your web server to update your blog, or your cloud to upload photos, or even your software repository for development? Just pop open Dolphin, Plasma’s file explorer, and use its connectivity tools, that include FTP/SSH clients, cloud integration software, Git/SVN/Mercurial, and more.
Yeah, who the hell is out there SSHing into their web server “to update their blog” but needs to be talked down like a toddler to convince them to try out Linux? This is a mythical beast of an user that does not exist.
You may be wondering if you will still be able to do what you did on Windows.
Linux does take some getting used to after years of using Windows, and you may need different programs to work and play.
Right, that’s a big red flag right there for any normie or semi-tech literate professional with a set workflow.
But there are three tricks that will make the transition easier:
Rely on the Free Software community
… And ask a lot of questions! Linux users are a proud bunch and will happily guide you so you quickly become at home.
Nobody wants to ask any questions. Users want to be hand-held by their interface, not a community. Definitely not the Linux community (see the inevitable set of comments soon to materialize below this as an example).
Do not expect the same things you would use in Windows
… but instead look for the programs that will do the same job on Linux.
This is a massive dealbreaker for a whole bunch of people, for understandable reasons.
Keeping all your files and folders will require some planning, but it is not hard. Get yourself an external hard disk you can plug into a USB port and dump all the stuff you want to save on that. You will have no problem reading it from Plasma later on.
This is simultaneoulsy an over and understatement. You can very likely access your old Windows drives from Linux, but it’s janky enough that this piece of advice makes sense. Plus you’re very likely to squash a bunch of your storage when installing Linux anyway. And when you think about the idea of pulling a couple of terabytes out of your machine just to copy them back over to the exact same drive this seems like a bit more of a hassle than presented.
I haven’t thought about this particular issue in a while because I’m set up so it doesn’t matter much to me when I install either OS, but… yeah, someone should find a better solution to this.
No forced updates
However, every single tutorial and guide you read will tell you to update all right at the top with the compulsive zeal of a puppy who has just smelled a hidden treat. You may not grow to be as annoyed by this as I am… but if you do, know that I see you.
Again, I am on board with the initiative. I just think there is a bit of denial about both the upcoming demise of Win10 and about how viable this transition process is for the types of users stuck in Win10 at the end of 2025. The entire document is an accidental admission of the gaps that still exist and I would love for it to become a roadmap of things to improve more than a pitch at this void Venn diagram of hypothetical users. If the caveats they list here get fixed it will take remarkably less coaxing to bring users over next time.
At least it’s honest. I really dislike when linux is presented as a drop in replacement for windows where everything will just work how you’re used to, because it does require re-learning new software and workflows.
To be fair, a lot of the things you listed are impossible for KDE to fix. You can’t make every single windows program work on Linux, you shouldn’t make KDE have exactly the same workflows as Windows, KDE isn’t gonna make it easier/better to install Linux on NTFS, and they have no control over tutorials that instruct people to update their software - How could any of these be used as a roadmap?
Alright, so add that to the top of the pile of issues, then.
The fact that the current development structure producing Linux and its distros/DEs can’t solve those issues doesn’t justify the issues. End users won’t give Linux a pass, they just want this stuff to work.
No, you’re not understanding what I’m getting at here. Linux is not windows. It cannot and should not aim to recreate it exactly, that’s a stupid idea from the get-go and will fail if attempted. Making every windows program work on Linux is also very difficult, but also, that’s the Wine team’s job, not KDE’s - KDE devs don’t have the expertise or knowledge to do that work. MacOS isn’t bad because it’s not identical to Windows, Linux should be judged similarly. It not being identical being seen as an issue is a mode of thinking that cannot lead to success. KDE has to be worth using because it’s good in its own right, not because it’s Windows without Microsoft.
I agree with the idea that selling that everything can be the same on Linux is not a great plan, but Linux advocates often focus on the wrong things to keep and change. They are often very focused on having a similar looking desktop, which nobody cares too much about, and really dismissive about software not having Linux ports, which is a catastrophic issue.
I do see what you see on principle, but I’d argue that the reasons KDE and Linux overall can come up short on “being good in its own right” are significant and often self-inflicted. No user should have to manually add a repository to their software manager, let alone a Windows “exile”. Being the only major OS without native or emulated compatibility with major software suites is a dealbreaker for many people and so on.
Whether KDE or Wine or the kernel teams are able to fix the issues remains irrelevant to the end users. I agree they should find their own optimal ways to fix things, I’m saying they haven’t found them in many of these areas.
I understand what you mean here, but how can KDE realistically make commercial software vendors port their software to Linux? What group or groups could incentivize this, and how can it be done without creating significant user growth first? (it’s a chicken and egg problem, so you can’t wait until the users are there if they’re waiting on software to be available)
Yeah, it’s absolutely a catch-22. That said, most Linux distros come with closed source repos deactivated out of the box. The nicer ones will at least ask you during the install process, but some don’t bother. It’s less about convincing the devs to port and more about exposing the stuff that already exists.
And Proton shows that a translation layer that works reliably on Linux isn’t impossible, it just needs the right amount of focus and investment. I don’t know how far the current tools are from that, though. Which is interesting, because I do use Linux on the daily and I haven’t even bothered to check in ages, instead moving to Windows for that, which tells you something.
It is a matter of emphasis I think. Do not imply that they will have to switch.
I think it is important to say that there is software for every use case on Linux. Because, while all know the few cases that are “less” well covered, it is absolutely true these days that, no matter what you want to do, you can do it on Linux. In many cases, the apps you use today are available on Linux too. Emphasize this first for people who are just forming an idea of Linux in their mind and maybe wondering if it could work for them.
After you have done the above, be honest that, not all the same applications are available. It is common that Windows users moving to Linux will have to find alternatives for some of the applications they used on Windows. Do not hide from it. But don’t lead with it either.
Finally, it is ok to mention that “in some cases”, Windows applications can be used on Linux through emulation. I would give a huge “for example” many Windows games work on Linux SteamOS and Proton. Maybe link to the list. However, how likely this is to work varies from application to application. For most software, it is better to find native alternatives.
Agreed. I’ve recently switch from Win10 to Gnome 3 briefly (LOL) then to KDE.
Some stronger selling points would be:
The KDE experience is exactly like Windows. Maybe more so.
It works out of the box with my hardware better than Windows did.
It offers more UI customisation, in a pretty straightforward, unintrusive and (mostly) intuitive way.
It’s more consistent and coherent than Windows, especially when it comes to ‘control panel’ stuff.
Way less crapware, such as graphics drivers that come with massively bloated management apps, or a thousand different software updaters running at once.
Hah. I don’t know if you want to point at the display drivers as an advantage yet. Would be nice, though.
And hey, what’s wrong with Gnome? I use Gnome right now. The endless arguments about how Linux is so customizable but whatever customization choice you made is clearly wrong are definitely part of the issue.
People making an informed choice about linux vs windows are a minority, the majority just don’t realize switching is even an option let alone have the technical know-how to go through with it. As long as windows comes pre installed, nothing will touch its hegemony.
This is a very good point, a lot of self proclaimed hardcore gamers can’t even handle building a pc or installing an os, even if it’s an easy install like linux.
Windows 10 going EoL, Windows 11 having spyware and not supporting legacy BIOS options (so I didn’t upgrade sooner) were all three big reasons I am on Linux now on my primary desktop computer.
Cool, mr. Unicorn. You are a small minority of a small minority, though. I do have lots of questions about whether you would have upgraded to 11 given the chance, or about when you intend to get a new PC, and whether you’d switch to Win 11 then, or about why you didn’t try the workarounds for the compatibility issues, or why you aren’t trying the options to extend the support on Windows 10, or whether the spyware thing would have been enough and so whether you’d have switched regardless. Because you sure sound like a guy who would have tried Linux before. “Why I am on Linux on my primary desktop computer” is… very specific wording.
But taking you at your word you’re still 2% of 2%. Of 2%, given that you’re on Lemmy. Except you seem to be on programming.dev, so… of 2%?
Idk why you’re talking like that, I wasn’t trying to contradict your point, I was just making conversation and sharing my experience.
But anyways, to answer,
Given the chance to upgrade to 11, I probably would’ve come close.
I wanted to get a new computer (and have) for years. I’d upgraded everything except the CPU and it was starting to be a problem. Some games are beginning to use the x64 “v3” instructions. Elden Ring ran at 20 fps despite having a 3070 ti.
Around the time I first started to look into work arounds was around the time the recall screenshot stuff started coming out. I didn’t want to abandon something working with a workaround just because it’s new and shiny. (If I was still using that computer I’d probably try doing the workarounds now. I’ve already had a BIOS/UEFI issue and I don’t wanna upgrade to an OS that technically is only supported on UEFI because of that negative experience.)
Yes, I have tried Linux before. It’s just always been on a secondary thing like a laptop. Dual booting is a waste (in my view) so I decided, fuck it, new computer will be Linux only from the start.
If Windows 10 support had been longer, Windows 11 didn’t have such a horrible spyware thing (literal screenshots), or my computer was a little newer then I probably wouldn’t switch. It was a perfect storm of circumstances, I admit.
Since then the only problems I have run into are very specific ham radio programs that only have Windows support, and even those work on Wine, but it’s annoying. I’ve just been borrowing my wife’s laptop. Typically things like firmware flashing programs. CHIRP works perfectly (another program) on all platforms.
Edit: also I had an annoying experience with OneDrive recently. Just a lot of negative things right at the end.
Oh, I didn’t mean to come across like that, I’m just saying you don’t sound like the archetypal Windows user and even if you were you’d be in a tiny minority.
Which, yeah, tracks with what you’re saying about both your use case and your profile. You sure don’t sound like you’re using your PC as the average end user does. The average user has not tried Linux, doesn’t have those applications in mind, certainly has no set opinion on dual booting or UEFI. You ARE a bit of a unicorn there. As am I, I suppose, although I’m bouncing back and forth, not maining Linux, and not because I’m particularly dissatisfied with Win 11 specifically.
You are pretty archetypal on the OneDrive thing. Everybody has had an annoying experience with One Drive recently. I don’t know that there are any other experiences to be had with OneDrive at all, to be honest.
I don’t begrudge KDE for fishing for converts. It’s a perfectly reasonable idea and hey, already more structured marketing than most Linux initiatives ever get around to deploying.
The page does highlight some of the contradictions in the W10 EoL being the great big hope for a major Linux transition for average users. For one thing… yeah, it won’t seem like all those computers keep working, they will keep working. Indefinitely. Having to explain to people that their perfectly working computer is actually not working despite all available evidence is a bit of an issue.
The whole page is a who’s who of flawed arguments Linux advocates keep impotently making at Windows users. It may be more useful as a guide for the things Linux contributors should be focusing on fixing than as an outreach tool.
Just for a few examples:
Yeah, who the hell is out there SSHing into their web server “to update their blog” but needs to be talked down like a toddler to convince them to try out Linux? This is a mythical beast of an user that does not exist.
Right, that’s a big red flag right there for any normie or semi-tech literate professional with a set workflow.
Nobody wants to ask any questions. Users want to be hand-held by their interface, not a community. Definitely not the Linux community (see the inevitable set of comments soon to materialize below this as an example).
This is a massive dealbreaker for a whole bunch of people, for understandable reasons.
This is simultaneoulsy an over and understatement. You can very likely access your old Windows drives from Linux, but it’s janky enough that this piece of advice makes sense. Plus you’re very likely to squash a bunch of your storage when installing Linux anyway. And when you think about the idea of pulling a couple of terabytes out of your machine just to copy them back over to the exact same drive this seems like a bit more of a hassle than presented.
I haven’t thought about this particular issue in a while because I’m set up so it doesn’t matter much to me when I install either OS, but… yeah, someone should find a better solution to this.
However, every single tutorial and guide you read will tell you to update all right at the top with the compulsive zeal of a puppy who has just smelled a hidden treat. You may not grow to be as annoyed by this as I am… but if you do, know that I see you.
Again, I am on board with the initiative. I just think there is a bit of denial about both the upcoming demise of Win10 and about how viable this transition process is for the types of users stuck in Win10 at the end of 2025. The entire document is an accidental admission of the gaps that still exist and I would love for it to become a roadmap of things to improve more than a pitch at this void Venn diagram of hypothetical users. If the caveats they list here get fixed it will take remarkably less coaxing to bring users over next time.
At least it’s honest. I really dislike when linux is presented as a drop in replacement for windows where everything will just work how you’re used to, because it does require re-learning new software and workflows.
Agreed. It serves as a bit of a backlog for that reason, and that’s a more honest approach than pretending everything is sorted already.
To be fair, a lot of the things you listed are impossible for KDE to fix. You can’t make every single windows program work on Linux, you shouldn’t make KDE have exactly the same workflows as Windows, KDE isn’t gonna make it easier/better to install Linux on NTFS, and they have no control over tutorials that instruct people to update their software - How could any of these be used as a roadmap?
Alright, so add that to the top of the pile of issues, then.
The fact that the current development structure producing Linux and its distros/DEs can’t solve those issues doesn’t justify the issues. End users won’t give Linux a pass, they just want this stuff to work.
No, you’re not understanding what I’m getting at here. Linux is not windows. It cannot and should not aim to recreate it exactly, that’s a stupid idea from the get-go and will fail if attempted. Making every windows program work on Linux is also very difficult, but also, that’s the Wine team’s job, not KDE’s - KDE devs don’t have the expertise or knowledge to do that work. MacOS isn’t bad because it’s not identical to Windows, Linux should be judged similarly. It not being identical being seen as an issue is a mode of thinking that cannot lead to success. KDE has to be worth using because it’s good in its own right, not because it’s Windows without Microsoft.
To quote myself just one post above:
I do see what you see on principle, but I’d argue that the reasons KDE and Linux overall can come up short on “being good in its own right” are significant and often self-inflicted. No user should have to manually add a repository to their software manager, let alone a Windows “exile”. Being the only major OS without native or emulated compatibility with major software suites is a dealbreaker for many people and so on.
Whether KDE or Wine or the kernel teams are able to fix the issues remains irrelevant to the end users. I agree they should find their own optimal ways to fix things, I’m saying they haven’t found them in many of these areas.
I understand what you mean here, but how can KDE realistically make commercial software vendors port their software to Linux? What group or groups could incentivize this, and how can it be done without creating significant user growth first? (it’s a chicken and egg problem, so you can’t wait until the users are there if they’re waiting on software to be available)
Yeah, it’s absolutely a catch-22. That said, most Linux distros come with closed source repos deactivated out of the box. The nicer ones will at least ask you during the install process, but some don’t bother. It’s less about convincing the devs to port and more about exposing the stuff that already exists.
And Proton shows that a translation layer that works reliably on Linux isn’t impossible, it just needs the right amount of focus and investment. I don’t know how far the current tools are from that, though. Which is interesting, because I do use Linux on the daily and I haven’t even bothered to check in ages, instead moving to Windows for that, which tells you something.
It is a matter of emphasis I think. Do not imply that they will have to switch.
I think it is important to say that there is software for every use case on Linux. Because, while all know the few cases that are “less” well covered, it is absolutely true these days that, no matter what you want to do, you can do it on Linux. In many cases, the apps you use today are available on Linux too. Emphasize this first for people who are just forming an idea of Linux in their mind and maybe wondering if it could work for them.
After you have done the above, be honest that, not all the same applications are available. It is common that Windows users moving to Linux will have to find alternatives for some of the applications they used on Windows. Do not hide from it. But don’t lead with it either.
Finally, it is ok to mention that “in some cases”, Windows applications can be used on Linux through emulation. I would give a huge “for example” many Windows games work on Linux SteamOS and Proton. Maybe link to the list. However, how likely this is to work varies from application to application. For most software, it is better to find native alternatives.
Agreed. I’ve recently switch from Win10 to Gnome 3 briefly (LOL) then to KDE.
Some stronger selling points would be:
Hah. I don’t know if you want to point at the display drivers as an advantage yet. Would be nice, though.
And hey, what’s wrong with Gnome? I use Gnome right now. The endless arguments about how Linux is so customizable but whatever customization choice you made is clearly wrong are definitely part of the issue.
Gnome 3
Ah.
I mean, still, point stands. But… ah.
I liked MATE when I last used it. I believe that’s based on GNOME 2.
Yeah, the fact that you have to use different software is the main reason people don’t switch.
People making an informed choice about linux vs windows are a minority, the majority just don’t realize switching is even an option let alone have the technical know-how to go through with it. As long as windows comes pre installed, nothing will touch its hegemony.
This is a very good point, a lot of self proclaimed hardcore gamers can’t even handle building a pc or installing an os, even if it’s an easy install like linux.
Windows 10 going EoL, Windows 11 having spyware and not supporting legacy BIOS options (so I didn’t upgrade sooner) were all three big reasons I am on Linux now on my primary desktop computer.
Cool, mr. Unicorn. You are a small minority of a small minority, though. I do have lots of questions about whether you would have upgraded to 11 given the chance, or about when you intend to get a new PC, and whether you’d switch to Win 11 then, or about why you didn’t try the workarounds for the compatibility issues, or why you aren’t trying the options to extend the support on Windows 10, or whether the spyware thing would have been enough and so whether you’d have switched regardless. Because you sure sound like a guy who would have tried Linux before. “Why I am on Linux on my primary desktop computer” is… very specific wording.
But taking you at your word you’re still 2% of 2%. Of 2%, given that you’re on Lemmy. Except you seem to be on programming.dev, so… of 2%?
Idk why you’re talking like that, I wasn’t trying to contradict your point, I was just making conversation and sharing my experience.
But anyways, to answer,
If Windows 10 support had been longer, Windows 11 didn’t have such a horrible spyware thing (literal screenshots), or my computer was a little newer then I probably wouldn’t switch. It was a perfect storm of circumstances, I admit.
Since then the only problems I have run into are very specific ham radio programs that only have Windows support, and even those work on Wine, but it’s annoying. I’ve just been borrowing my wife’s laptop. Typically things like firmware flashing programs. CHIRP works perfectly (another program) on all platforms.
Edit: also I had an annoying experience with OneDrive recently. Just a lot of negative things right at the end.
Oh, I didn’t mean to come across like that, I’m just saying you don’t sound like the archetypal Windows user and even if you were you’d be in a tiny minority.
Which, yeah, tracks with what you’re saying about both your use case and your profile. You sure don’t sound like you’re using your PC as the average end user does. The average user has not tried Linux, doesn’t have those applications in mind, certainly has no set opinion on dual booting or UEFI. You ARE a bit of a unicorn there. As am I, I suppose, although I’m bouncing back and forth, not maining Linux, and not because I’m particularly dissatisfied with Win 11 specifically.
You are pretty archetypal on the OneDrive thing. Everybody has had an annoying experience with One Drive recently. I don’t know that there are any other experiences to be had with OneDrive at all, to be honest.
My experience with OneDrive lol
https://programming.dev/post/17043712
True story, OneDrive is the one piece of Microsoft software where I always accept any prompts to give feedback or fill surveys.
My feedback is always the same: “This is the piece of software that has cost me the most money and work hours over the years”
This is an accurate assessment.