That alt text is just TOO real
These “Wayland will never come” articles completely ignore the fact that Wayland is here and has already won.
There are lots of issues with Wayland. They will be fixed, but if this was simply a list of things still needing to be improved, it would be useful.
But most Linux desktop users use Wayland already. It will be 90% in 2-3 years. With the exception of Mint, the big Linux distros already install to Linux by default. So almost every new Linux user starts on Wayland. Few will ever try X11. And if they did, the list of broken and impaired experiences on X11 will bring most back to Wayland.
It really does not matter if every x11 user switches to Wayland. The ecosystem does not need them.
But very few of even the hard core adherents will use an X server 5 years from now. Most normal users will not even use Xwayland. And the simple reason is applications.
Everyday there are more and more apps that are Wayland only. Before 2030, that list will include all GNOME and most GTK apps. Are people really going to give up all these applications because of some obscure advantage they perceive in X11?
Most the the faults the article cites are exaggerated or historical. But it is not worth arguing over the details. Wayland is the future. But it is already the present. It is sad really that the people writing these articles do not realize that they are already in the minority and have already been left behind.
This is a “Linux will never be ready for all UNIX users” article written in 1998. It is both true and irrelevant.
The only thing stopping me from switching is the fact TigerVNC server doesn’t support it, I wouldn’t be able to LAN remote into my workstation.
What do you mean by that? I’m using TigerVNC with wayvnc on sway
I currently use Arch/X11/KDE with TigerVNC, I remember there being issues half a year ago when I last checked it.
Can you share the contact of your copium dealer?
Because, really, this is one of the most disparagated stuff I’ve ever read this year.
Disparagated? I assume you mean disparaging but that does not really track to the copium comment.
I know I am coming off a bit harsh. I am just tired of Xorg fans going off about how Wayland is not ready when it is already the most popular desktop Linux display server.
I don’t like systemd but I would not be expected to be taken very seriously if I wrote an article saying that people will never use it when 90% of Linux desktops are systemd based.
Or perhaps in should write an article about how nobody clang is not ready because I have a use case it does not fit.
And the list of things that Wayland can do that Xorg cannot is longer than the reverse at this point. So, a list of things you prefer about Xorg is just a personal preference at best at this point. Trying to argue that Wayland is “not ready” when it is both more advanced and more popular should be called out for what it is.
Shouting that the guy crossing the finish line ahead of you does not stand a chance just sounds stupid. And that is what this article is doing.
There are lots of issues with Wayland. They will be fixed
Remind me 2030 if these issues I have get fixed:
https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/8000
https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/8001
https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/8002
https://github.com/swaywm/sway/issues/8191 I later learned the reason sway is using capabilities is to fix performance issues, which yeah still has several…
One issue the wayland proponents fail to notice is that the ecosystem itself is fragmented, you have several DEs/WM with their own implementations and bugs that will likely never be fixed.
I’m an i3wm user, my only option to switch to is sway, doesn’t matter if some of the issues I have are fixed in kwin or mutter, it has to be fixed in sway.
But most Linux desktop users use Wayland already.
Most desktop users use windows, and they are happy with that, why don’t you stop using linux and move to windows?
Everyday there are more and more apps that are Wayland only. Before 2030, that list will include all GNOME and most GTK apps. Are people really going to give up all these applications because of some obscure advantage they perceive in X11?
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/12to11-git
people writing these articles do not realize that they are already in the minority and have already been left behind.
Doesn’t remove the fact that wayland still sucks 😆
Remind me 2030 if these issues I have get fixed:
You want me to track the progress of 4 bugs in Sway? Such a powerful argument. How about don’t use Sway?
One issue the wayland proponents fail to notice is that the ecosystem itself is fragmented
I did not fail to notice. I have another post here comparing compositors to web browsers. There is more than one by design. Long term, it is absolutely one of Wayland’s strengths. But ya, your experience is only going to be as good as the browser you choose.
For tiler lovers, Niri and Hyprland are both great. COSMIC is looking good but still Alpha. Plasma 6 is perhaps the best Wayland compositor at the moment.
why don’t you stop using linux and move to windows?
Hilarious. Linux has been my primary desktop since the 90’s. You probably need to get off my lawn.
Even more hilarious. Looks like you found an even crappier Wayland compositor than Sway.
Amongst the long list of broken things in 12to11, my favourite is this: “has not been tested on window (and compositing) managers other than GNOME Shell”. GNOME is a Wayland first and soon to be Wayland only project. A project clinging to Wayland on X on GNOME is a perfect metaphor for the point I am making. Thank you for making my point so well.
By 2030, Xorg will be in the AUR and the only x server in the core Arch repos will be Wayback (Xwayland on Wayland).
Sounds like you will be using 12to11 to run Wayland apps on i3 on XWayland on Wayback (Wayland on X on Wayland). Good times.
You seem to think I am telling you to use Wayland though.I don’t care what you use. My point is that everybody else is happy leaving you behind. Keep using X. You can switch to the Dillo browser too if you want. LMAO.
Very subtle “Arch, BTW”, BTW. Nice.
For everybody else, here is the project you linked to. It is a fun little project.
You want me to track the progress of 4 bugs in Sway? Such a powerful argument.
4 bugs discovered in less than 48 hours of use.
How about don’t use Sway?
I don’t, I’m on i3wm as result.
For tiler lovers, Niri and Hyprland are both great.
Tried hyprland as well, it is useless.
Hyprland is such a meme, that the config file doesn’t allow chaining multiple actions to a single keybind, you have to instead repeat the same keybind several times in the config lmao.
Also in hyprland you cannot move a floating window between displays using the move left and right commands, this is because the action does not move the window in that direction but rather to the left or right side of the display, meaning the window gets stuck at the border between the two displays and does not move anymore 😹
Also this whole disaster that I was a victim of, the documentation was insanely outdated and someone had to repeat the dev about the issue: https://github.com/hyprwm/hyprland-wiki/issues/242
Even more hilarious. Looks like you found an even crappier Wayland compositor than Sway.
It works lol
My issue is not if an app works on X11 or wayland, but the terrible implementations that wayland that lack even the most basic features.
My point is that everybody else is happy leaving you behind
And once again doesn’t remove the fact that wayland still sucks 😆
It doesn’t need to be. The goal is not to recreate and be compatible with X11, otherwise it would defeat the idea to create something new. Wayland is here, because it needs to do things differently. It’s the same as Linux operating systems will never be ready for every Microsoft user. And that’s okay.
Sure, but I don’t think that’s an excuse for things like global hotkeys not working.
I guess that is why global shortcuts were added as an xdg-desktop-portal extension.
Do you use Debian? I find a lot of the biggest Wayland opponents are running software from 3 years ago and have no idea how Wayland works today.
The biggest issue for last ~8 years was that wayland was promoted as “superior” while lacking even most basic functions.
V-Sync control? Nope. Hidpi scaling? Nope. Only in 2024 it got to the point where it’s actually usable and these features were implemented.
Who “promoted” it as superior to X11? Pretty much everyone I watch and read said that Wayland had their problems and they are working on it, but it is the future. There are ideas and concepts that are superior to X11, but it does not mean its fleshed out. I don’t think anyone said that Wayland is superior to X11 in every aspect. Not even the most die hard fan say it. :D
Canonical. They had that brilliant idea of wayland-by-default in 2017.
It was a great clusterfuck of frustration for me and other Ubuntu users
Fedora even switched to Wayland by default in 2016 (at least for the GNOME release). I don’t know what they were thinking. 8 to 9 years before they were already using Wayland… and it still have some “problems”. Can’t imagine what you were going through. :D
But compared to Fedora, Ubuntu only did change temporarily to Wayland right? I mean it was not an LTS version. I installed LTS 18.04 and don’t remember anything like that by default.
It was actually fine (ish)
The basics worked and you could switch back if you wanted to
Yeah Ubuntu backed out with the next major release. Probably because of user complaints.
It depends on who you are
I switched in 2020
Here is an argument that some of the grumpy old men clinging to Xorg may understand.
It is 2003 and all the cool kids are moving to this new web browser called Firefox. But every time you try your favourite websites in it, you find stuff that breaks. So back to trusty old Internet Explorer 6 you go. Call me when it works you say.
Wayland is like HTML. Wayland compositors are web browsers. And yes, all these “modern” web standards are all implemented a little differently or maybe not at all in some browsers. And, annoyingly, a lot of real world websites still work better in Internet Explorer 6 than in any of these supposedly “modern” browsers.
But, as with the web, it will not be long until all websites (Linux desktop applications) will be written to use the modern standards and will work well, and pretty much the same, in all browsers (Wayland compositors).
And, while there will still be websites (Linux desktop apps) that work better in IE6 (Xorg), most people will consider those sites broken and will probably not use them. Alternatively, you can run your browser (compositor) in compatibility mode (Xwayland) for those sites.
You can keep using Internet Explorer if you want. Many people held on for a long time. Just know what your advocacy sounds like to people that have moved on to Firefox and Chrome. Pointing at your corporate website that looks wrong in Firefox will not impress them. And understand that you will not be able to hang on forever. Well, unless you want to be stuck in a tiny corner of the web that still works on your browser. Most websites will stop working on Internet Explorer at some point.
My big complaint with Wayland is that the ecosystem has not really developed an effective standardization process.
With web browsers, you would get browsers doing their own thing; then copying each other’s thing, then writing down a standard for that thing, then all switch to the standard.
With Wayland, you get: https://wayland.app/protocols/ For as old as Wayland is, there are 5 standard protocol extensions (plus some updates to the core protocol). A bunch sitting in the standardization pipeline. Then a whole bunch of redundant protocols because each compositor is just doing their own thing without even attempting to standardize.
It doesn’t help that one of the major compositor (Gnome/Mutter) has essentially abandoned Wayland for everything beyond the core capabilities in favor of offering additional functionality over a separate DBus interface.
Let me be clear, I am not here to defend the Wayland standards process. The GNOME guys in particular are a nightmare and heavily resist everything they do not themselves need. If what you want to complain about are some of the people “in Wayland”, I am on your side.
That said, xdg-desktop-portal and DBUS are part of the Wayland world as they are part of the freedesktop.org standard. Red Hat has a vision for the Linux platform. This is it.
But this is like saying the web is not just HTML anymore because it also requires JavaScript. Everybody is on board with dbus. It is how you do IPC to sandboxed Flatpak apps too…
I’m not super informed on Wayland, and this analogy really helped, thanks!
I am a Mint fan, so one of the minority still running X11. As long as I can do what I need to on my PC, though, I am content to wait until the distro maintainers do the upgrade.
I guess using Mint in the first place means I don’t prioritize running all the cutting edge versions of everything, lol.
Mint is awesome. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using Mint on Xorg today. I converted somebody to Linux recently and I put them on Mint (X11). There are not that many Wayland only apps yet. And if you don’t use them yet, you won’t miss them.
Please just don’t post “Wayland is not ready” articles because Cinnamon is not ready (does not fully support Wayland yet).
Cinnamon will go Wayland though. When they are ready, they will switch you over. At some point, they will drop support for Xorg.
With all the surface false analogies and general lack of solid knowledge in the comments here, I truly hope that at least half of them are LLM generated.
Guess this is what happens when a post in the lemmy verse gets about 100 comments.
Well in 120 years, all existing X11 users will be dead and then this stupid argument will finally stop including X11
U mad?
I honestly can’t tell
I think X11 is ideal at the state it is currently. Only getting real fixes, that don’t break anything. If you are a kind of user who needs X11, you probably don’t need any features Wayland offers anyway.
X11 users love to cling to broken / abandoned apps.
If your app doesn’t work on Wayland it’s just bad or abandoned at this point.
