The article accuses Israel of potentially committing war crimes in its conflict with Hamas, focusing on a siege on Gaza, airstrikes harming civilians, and evacuation orders. It criticizes the U.S. for not condemning Israel’s actions and emphasizes the need for diplomatic solutions. The piece argues that Israel’s approach could backfire politically and suggests that there’s no military solution to the conflict. It calls for the U.S. to exercise influence to deter such actions, asserting it’s in the interests of both the U.S. and Israel to prevent further civilian casualties and maintain regional stability.
This whole situation feels like what Putin dreamed would have happened with Ukraine. A very public and brutal attack on civilians responded to with a disproportionate level of military force with the end result being the land of the initial aggressor belonging to the perceived victim.
Putin had to invent an excuse, but he would have loved a reason such as this. Combined with Israel possessing one of the foremost intelligence agencies in the world and Egypt warning of an impending attack; this feels like, if not planned, a welcome event for the current Israeli administration.
This is such a bizarre conspiracy theory. Netanyahu will be remembered as being asleep at the wheel for the worst attack on Israel in its history – and the worst massacre of Jewish people since the Holocaust. His political career, built almost solely on his ability to protect Israelis from exactly this kind of attack, is almost certainly over. His ability to obstruct his corruption trial is too. That’s extreme risk, no reward and really makes no sense at all.
“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”
Netanyahu openly admitted to enabling Hamas in order to delegitimize other Palestinian groups. It’s not even a conspiracy theory it’s just a fact.
Though vile, encouraging strong extremists relative to moderates to divide Palestinians and discredit the idea of Palestinian government is not remotely the same thing as conspiring to murder thousands of your own citizens for political gain.
(Also, he didn’t openly admit it. There’s an unconfirmed report that he said that during a 2019 meeting. Others close to Netanyahu have said that was basically the policy whether he said it or not.)
I think the claim that this was Netanyahu’s strategy is a bit stronger than you think.
This is solidly documented. Between 2012 and 2018, Netanyahu gave Qatar approval to transfer a cumulative sum of about a billion dollars to Gaza, at least half of which reached Hamas, including its military wing. According to the Jerusalem Post, in a private meeting with members of his Likud party on March 11, 2019, Netanyahu explained the reckless step as follows: The money transfer is part of the strategy to divide the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. Anyone who opposes the establishment of a Palestinian state needs to support the transfer of the money from Qatar to Hamas. In that way, we will foil the establishment of a Palestinian state (as reported in former cabinet member Haim Ramon’s Hebrew-language book “Neged Haruach”, p. 417).
In an interview with the Ynet news website on May 5, 2019, Netanyahu associate Gershon Hacohen, a major general in reserves, said, “We need to tell the truth. Netanyahu’s strategy is to prevent the option of two states, so he is turning Hamas into his closest partner. Openly Hamas is an enemy. Covertly, it’s an ally.”
It has certainly backfired on him.
Normally, buffoons being caught out by their buffoonery would be funny but it cost the lives of ~1000 civilians.
I don’t disagree! I wasn’t disputing that it was his policy, only that he’s openly admitting it.
All good, mate. Wasn’t having at you.
I do think he has openly admitted to his colleagues according to those articles.
deleted by creator
Latest polls show indeed a huge drop in support for Netanyahu’s party.
I don’t know, I really think it’s a mix. A relatively small attack would have had a similar rallying effect without commensurate vitriol towards the ruling party. It may have been that Netanyahu believed, or chose to believe, that the impending attack would not be nearly so large or vicious as it ended up - another metaphorical bottle rocket barrage that he could use to distract from his other authoritarian undertakings.
But I do agree that any conspiracy that asserts that the current Israeli government was looking for hundreds of Israeli deaths is deluded. Clearly, they did not see or chose not to see the scale of the coming attack.
But in this world, Netanyahu would have to trust Hamas to stage a small attack so much that he’d have the military stand down and give them free reign for like 16 hours. Absurd. Not to mention they were already getting small attacks from Gaza and regular violence in the West Bank from the crisis they created that has spiralled out of control. Again, extreme risk for no reward. And the most certain outcome would be gaining nothing and losing his power, legacy, and freedom when caught (if he wasn’t executed for treason).
In people’s imaginations massive conspiracies are easy to pull off. In the real world, conspiracies that would necessarily involve dozens to hundreds of people (and multiple branches of government) don’t stay secret for long – especially when they’re catastrophically fucked up. It takes just one chatty Kathy, one drunk brag, one guilty conscience, one failed attempt at blackmail, one low-level conspirator who wants a book deal to topple the house of cards. Humans are nearly as bad at conspiring as they are at assessing risk.
It worked out great for George W Bush.
Apples and oranges.
I thought Russia was the initial aggressor against Ukraine. Where’s the retaliatory angle in that conflict? Did Ukraine kidnap people from a music festival like Hamas?
Russia absolutely is the initial aggressor in the Ukraine conflict, but emphatically insists they are responding to a threat from the Ukraine in their propaganda.
Who cares what Russia claims? Everyone knows their grievances are entirely fictional. It’s not even a plausible fiction.
You’re not the intended audience
Do you think this attack on the music festival is the first thing that’s ever happened between Israel and Palestine? Surely you’re not that stupid.
Israel is an occupying force and they’re forcibly removing Palestinian civilians from their family homes. They are the aggressors. They are “Russia” in this analogy.
deleted by creator
What a degenerated analogy…
Yeah, Israel has been oppressing Palestinian citizens for way longer than Russia’s recent incursions into Ukraine. Good point.
Israeli president Isaac Herzog, while allowing that Gazan civilians weren’t legitimate military targets, nevertheless suggested that they bear responsibility for Hamas’s actions, saying, “They could have risen up, they could have fought against the evil regime”
Hamas has also said the same thing about Israelis, saying that they elected war criminals and hence every Israeli has some amount of guilt. Do Israelis not hear themselves? They’re only validating the terrorists with this rhetoric.
deleted by creator
It’s interesting what happens when the rhetoric used is applied to both sides.
-
Why don’t the citizens of Israel stand up against their governments war crimes?
-
If the citizens of Israel didn’t all want to be complicit in their government’s war crimes, why haven’t they risen up to outlaw mandatory military service?
-
Why don’t the citizens of Israel do anything about the settlers committing terrorist acts in plains clothes, and instead just let them blend with the rest of the population?
-
Why do the citizens of Israel not stand against their military protecting, supporting, legitimizing the terrorist acts of the settlers?
The list goes on…
Why don’t the citizens of Israel stand up against their governments war crimes?
they have
Why do the citizens of Israel not stand against their military protecting, supporting, legitimizing the terrorist acts of the settlers?
they have
-
Victim blaming on a national scale.
(The Palestinian people, not Hamas. Before some IDF shills jump on my wording)
America is Israel’s bitch.
This isn’t an endorsement for Trump or Republicans who aren’t much better, and rather I wanted to add this since I don’t think the other comment was focussed on the important bit.
1986:
Joe Biden says that Israel is the best 3 billion dollar investment the United States makes, and that if there were not an Israel, the US would have to invent a one to protect US interests in the region.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FYLNCcLfIkM
Don’t endorse the channel, don’t know anything about the channel, I googled for the C-SPAN clip
And a more modern example with a legitimate source:
And I — I’ve often said, Mr. President, if there were — if there were not an Israel, we’d have to invent one
Palestine is hamas’ bitch.
Biden is a Zionist, acts, walks, and talks, like one.
Biden, and any US president, is pro-military industrial complex. Anything that lets them sell more weapons and increase US hegemony is what their ideology is.
deleted by creator
If you think this started with Biden, you’re an idiot
I mean no but Biden is extra-Zionist. At least Trump blamed Netenyahu for his failure to prevent the attack.
I never said that, if you thought that I did, you are an idiot.
Why would you single out Biden, when people in our Congress can’t even say, out loud, anything critical of Israel (no matter how valid) without facing a real risk of losing their entire political career?
You’d only single him out if you had an agenda. Surely you don’t have an agenda, right?
No agenda, no. Biden himself says HE IS A ZIONIST. Many Americans are proud Zionist, many of whom are gov. representatives.
deleted by creator
I don’t think Biden has an ideological bone in his body. Supporting Israel is just good business. Simple as.
I mean… when has the US ever backed off from committing war crimes?
My Lai Massacre, Abu Ghraib Prison, Drone Strikes, Guantanamo Bay… list goes on.
Wasn’t there an article yesterday that the US asked for restrained actions even against the hamas?
Biden’s not gonna do shit, we all know that
I like him, but I’m also pretty biased because I’m ukranian.
Essentially, Biden is very much a ‘consensus’ leader. In other words, he tends not to make strong deviations from policy unless there is very broad support for them. Supporting Ukraine was pre-existing US policy and popular at the time of the 2022 invasion - so Biden intensifying it wasn’t out of character for him.
Opposing Israel, on the other hand, would be contrary to established US policy and something that is not widely supported in the US. So Biden is very unlikely to do anything substantial to restrain Israel, regardless of how horrific the situation gets.
Biden feels like a placeholder president
Aren’t presidents supposed to represent policy of their country though ? What’s the point of head of the state that goes against it’s policy ?
Typically a president must (and should) make a lot of decisions in ‘edge cases’ and in changing policy. Biden is essentially cautious on both. Not inherently bad, but often frustrating when long-standing policy is questionable or 30% of the country is insa.ne.
I see. IMHO Biden seem to have lost respect because his health seems not top notch so it makes people doubt his mental health. If he wasn’t falling or having trouble speaking occasionally, he would be less criticized.
deleted by creator
They asked. That’s not really much. Israel still has a carte blanche from the international community to commit warcrimes.
No they don’t.
I mean they’re committing warcrimes right this moment and instead of stopping them everyone is giving them weapons.
How are they committing wacrimes on purpose when they tell the civilians actually to fuck off and get out of the fire? As cruel as it’s sound those civilians are collateral damage, killed because the hamas is hiding between them and forcing them to stay in the warzone.
What should they do after this horrendous crimes against their people, then to move against the hamas? Did the US not act after 9/11? Did we as NATO not act when Serbians committed a genocide in Kosovo? High civilian casualties are a welcomed effect by terrorists like the Hamas, cause they are not a regular army.
I find it wrong what’s happens there but I also have no Idea what Israel could do different in order to save humans lives and also to defend themselves.
How are they committing wacrimes on purpose when they tell the civilians actually to fuck off and get out of the fire?
They then attack those civilians while they’re fucking off, or after they get to the location they told them to fuck off to. Not kidding they’ve done it five times by my count the past few days. They’re also attacking journalists, hospitals and the like. And don’t get me started on the white phosphorus.
So yeah, they’re committing warcrimes.
What should they do after this horrendous crimes against their people, then to move against the hamas?
Well, after pushing Hamas to the Gaza ousting Netenyahu and installing a PM who’s actually interesting in peace would be a good start. There’ll never be peace—and therefore violence is inevitable—as long as Netenyahu and his party are in charge. I’m not exaggerating.
You also can turn this around. As long as they are terrorists like the Hamas backed by the people around them there will be no peace because they have only one goal and that is to wipe the Jews out. I’m not exaggerating, they are actually founded on this, the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion are part of their charter.
Like I said there is no easy solution and I’m not stupid enough to tell you there is one. All included parties have fucked up big time.
You also can turn this around.
No you can’t, because:
1-Netenyahu has been standing in the way of peace since the Oslo accords, aka the when the conflict was the closest to being fully resolved (literally Netenyahu just had to follow the deal his predecessor made with Arafat and that would be it).
2-Hamas and Israel signed two ceasefires before, one in 2008 and another in 2012. Both included that Israel had to lift the blockade. Well that didn’t happen so both fell through. Netenyahu also vehemently opposed the short-lived unified Palestinian government because it meant Palestinians would’ve been able to work towards peace again.
This is what I’m talking about. Hamas had (has?) some fucked up shit in their charter, but in the end they’re not so insane as to reject reality. Meanwhile Netenyahu just changes reality to keep himself in power.
Also speaking of which, Hamas changed their charter in 2017 to only demand the return to 1967 borders.
You’re right, this situation JUST started with the attack at the festival. Literally nothing ever happened there before that day.
Give me a fucking break.
With which war against Israel you want to start? 1948? 1967? 1973?
The land was Palestine before 1948, the natives who had lived there for generations were Palestinians, and their land was simply taken from them. What the fuck do you mean they “started a war”?
Empty words.
never saw one, please share.
https://www.reuters.com/world/white-house-israels-call-move-gaza-civilians-is-tall-order-2023-10-13/
“These Palestinian people, they’re victims, too. They didn’t ask for this. They didn’t invite Hamas in and say, you know, ‘Go hit Israel.’” – Kirby
deleted by creator
The US likes to use anything but actual units of measurement…
To be fair, it is New York mag. So New York is to some degree, a frame of reference for the readers of it.
I guess we can be glad they didn’t say something like size of very big boulder this time.
I hate my country and many of my countrymen.
It’s difficult, but don’t give in to the hate. They’re just heavily propagandized to and manipulated by the media and capitalist hegemony. They are victims too. Spread love. Free Palestine 🇵🇸
Based boomer 🙏
That’s the fucking dumbest thing I’ve read in a while. What a naive take…
Finally, a mainstream media presence is pushing back on the propaganda. Hazzah
Yeah. “Pushing back.”
US Government. Most of us wants everyone to stop killing each other and our leaders to shut the fuck up and figure out our own problems.
And have been for decades.
Article:
Photo: Abed Zagout/Anadolu via Getty Images
The legality of a war effort under international law hinges on two primary criteria. The first concerns a military campaign’s ends: States are generally forbidden from using force against those beyond their borders for any purpose except self-defense. The second criteria concerns the war effort’s means. States may not deliberately target civilians nor disproportionately harm them in service of their war aims.
Israel’s campaign against Hamas meets that first criterion. The conflict between the Palestinians of Gaza and the Israeli government is not truly one between distinct states. Israel exercises effective sovereignty over Gaza, controlling the movement of its people, barring them from a portion of its territory, and regulating its import and export of goods. Nevertheless, when a militant group murders more than a thousand of a state’s people, that state has cause for war against the militant group.
But Israel’s means of war against Hamas runs afoul of international law. Israel has imposed a complete siege on Gaza, denying its 2 million inhabitants access to electricity, food, water, and fuel. Israeli defense minister Yoav Gallant justified these measures on the grounds that “we are fighting human animals, and we act accordingly.”
Volker Turk, the U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights, told the New York Times Thursday that “the imposition of sieges that endanger the lives of civilians by depriving them of goods essential for their survival is prohibited under international humanitarian law.”
Tom Dannenbaum, an expert on siege law at Tufts University, affirmed this assessment, describing Israel’s policy as an abnormally clear-cut instance of starving civilians as a means of war, an unambiguous violation of human rights.
Israel’s aerial bombardment of Gaza also appears to flout international law’s prohibition of the disproportionate killing of civilians. The Israeli Air Force has dropped more than 6,000 bombs on a stretch of land roughly the size of Queens. Its targets have included hospitals and schools. By its own account, Israel has not been firing “warning strikes” to encourage civilians to exit a given building before incinerating it. As of this writing, according to the Palestinian Health Ministry, Israel’s airstrikes have killed more than 1,799 people, including 583 children. According to the ministry, 60 percent of all the injured are women or children.
On Friday, Israel ordered 1 million Gazans to evacuate the northern part of the strip, in advance of an Israeli ground invasion set to begin at around 8 p.m. local time. The United Nations has said that it considers such an evacuation logistically impossible. The number of people is too large, the transport infrastructure too damaged, and, thanks to the Israeli siege, the resources necessary to care for 1 million uprooted people are too scarce. In this context, the order looks like a means of excusing the reckless endangerment of the lives of any civilians who remain in place.
For its part, the Israeli government is doing little to counter the impression that it has contempt for the civilians in Gaza. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has promised retribution that will “reverberate for generations.” The Israeli general Ghassan Aliyan has declared, “You wanted hell — you will get hell.”
Israeli president Isaac Herzog, while allowing that Gazan civilians weren’t legitimate military targets, nevertheless suggested that they bear responsibility for Hamas’s actions, saying, “They could have risen up, they could have fought against the evil regime, which took over Gaza in a coup d’etat.”
The Israeli Air Force, meanwhile, proudly advertised its decimation of entire city blocks.
The U.S. government has done little to deter Israel from committing war crimes. It has declined to reject Israel’s evacuation order. “We’re going to be careful not to get into armchair-quarterbacking the tactics on the ground” of the Israel Defense Forces, National Security Council spokesman John Kirby said Friday. “What I can tell you is we understand what they’re trying to do. They’re trying to move civilians out of harm’s way and giving them fair warning.”
Meanwhile, the administration has forbidden State Department officials from releasing statements that call for “de-escalation/ceasefire,” an “end to violence/bloodshed,” or “restoring calm.” A White House spokesperson decried congressional progressives’ advocacy for a ceasefire as “repugnant” and “disgraceful.”
Late Friday, Fox News reported that the White House has encouraged Israel to delay its ground invasion until safe passage for Palestinian civilians out of northern Gaza can be secured. This is better than nothing. But it leaves Israel’s reckless siege and aerial bombardment campaign unchallenged.
This is a patent failure of moral leadership. The U.S. has the power to exert some influence over Israeli strategy. The primary cost of its acquiescence to Israeli war crimes will be the deaths of a grotesque number of innocent Gazans. A secondary cost will be a decline in America’s standing in the world in general and the Middle East in particular. It is not in America’s national interest to abet the mass killing of Palestinian civilians.
Indeed, it is not in Israel’s best interests for the United States to do so. As Hussein Ibish notes in The Atlantic, Hamas quite likely intended to provoke Israel into mounting a response that would earn it international condemnation and make it impossible for Saudi Arabia to pursue the normalization of relations.
Israel may prize the complete destruction of Hamas over its international reputation. But the idea that one can eliminate support for terrorist resistance within a community by incinerating thousands of its civilians is ludicrous. There is no military solution to Israel’s security problem short of ethnic cleansing or genocide. It may impair Hamas’s operative capacities through the targeted assassination of its leaders or by scaling back its illegal settlement project in the West Bank so as to free up soldiers to guard its border with Gaza. But Israel cannot extinguish the problem of Palestinian resistance through the commission of atrocities.
It is therefore not only a humanitarian imperative for Israel to exercise greater restraint, but also a geostrategic one. As Ibish writes,
Outrageous overreach by terrorists typically aims to provoke overreach. Washington and other friends of Israel who are now seized with sympathy should immediately caution Israel not to make this blunder. If Israel instead exercises restraint, however difficult doing so might be both politically and emotionally, it can thwart the goals of Hamas and its Iranian sponsors. Restraint would go a long way toward ensuring that the diplomatic opening with Saudi Arabia continues to move forward, dealing a major blow to local revisionist powers, such as Iran, and global ones, such as China and Russia, that wish to supplant a rules-based order with one based on “Might makes right.”The United States has the power to deter the worst excesses of Israel’s present campaign. Exercising that power would be in the best interests of not only Gazans, but the U.S. and Israel. It was cycles of retributive violence that birthed our current nightmare. If we help Israel to perpetuate those cycles, then the arc of the region’s history will bend back toward hell. The U.S. Is Giving Israel Permission for War Crimes
The concept of “war crimes” is almost meaningless if the perpetrator has nukes.
No real punishment will be forthcoming. It’s not like anybody else will intervene.
This is another reason having a 2 party system is horrendous, when one of the parties is batshit crazy.
I think Biden should put pressure on Israel to calm down, but I’m not going to risk wasting political capital on this issue, because if we lose the next election we’ll get the insane Republicans, in which case the whole world is fucked, not just Gaza.
Hey, Trump promised to end all wars in 24 hours.
Right after he releases his amazing healthcare plan! Any minute now!
Removed by mod
It’s a worldwide relentless cycle, isn’t it?
These were right on top of each other on my feed. Probably some spin on both.
U.S. officials privately warn Israel to show restraint in retaliating against Hamas - https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/us-officials-privately-warn-israel-restraint-hamas-retaliation-biden-rcna120286
“Don’t murder the children too hard uwu”
“US CONDEMNS ISRAEL”
