With a two-letter word, Australians struck down the first attempt at constitutional change in 24 years, a move experts say will inflict lasting damage on First Nations people and suspend any hopes of modernizing the nation’s founding document.
I have not mentioned racism as a topic on any side.
In that case, what do you mean when you say:
That was the concerning part. Defining, very permanently, a group of people from all the others based on race. That’s literally anti-equality.
If you think the gap is genetic, you’re a racist motivated by racism, and the solutions are irrelevant. If the issue is systemic racism, what’s anti-equality about targeting the affected group to bring their outcomes to a more equal level?
I have not mentioned racism as a topic on any side. Though you say I have and that’s all you’re talking about? Why?
Beyond the points above, the specific options presented seem irrelevant. There’s no pleasing the racists that see indigenous people as genetically inferior, it seems you’d label any targeted solution as racial anti-equality (racism by another name), and we’re not taking a transition to a socialist utopia to a referendum any time soon.
The solution taken to the referendum was a product of the Uluru statement from the heart and associated activity, developed in partnership with the indigenous community, and supported by ~80% of the indigenous population. I figure they understand “how Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders and their nations work, (and) the history of support to this point.” better than anyone.
The solution presented was inadequate in my opinion, but a start. What solution would effectively deliver something resembling racial equality without being targeted “racial anti-equality”?
I don’t think you quite understand what racism fundamentally is. And I still don’t understand how anything you’re saying has anything to do with what I’ve said. You’re simply looking for a fight, but there is none there.
Any effective solution to racial equality does not allow people to have things that others don’t based on race; whether intended for good or bad, no exception. We are all equal.
If you can’t understand that, it’s a worry. Constantly dropping the racism card is just mind-blowing levels of misunderstanding and showing an “us” and “them” mindset, even if your intentions are good. This is the kind of behaviour that damages progress and puts a bad taste in people’s mouth; it is division where there should be unity. Societies cannot move forward and build on foundations that have a divide. That has and never will fundamentally work in the long-term; we know this.
Perhaps instead of being so upset, trying to start arguments, and dropping the racism card completely out of context, you start doing something proactive. Everyone else already is, especially Elders of both sides of the vote. Why did this not work? Do Australians care that much? How do we unify and move together as a people? This is the main objective and where your energy is best placed.
Any effective solution to racial equality does not allow people to have things that others don’t based on race; whether intended for good or bad, no exception. We are all equal.
Except by just about any metric you choose to look at, indigenous Australians are materially worse off. We’re factually not equal, and defence of the status quo that led to that perpetuates that inequality, again begs the question of whether the inequality is genetic (absurd, and racist, but if taken at face value could possibly be used to defend the status quo), or systemic - demonstrating that the system is currently racist and needs to be fixed.
How do we unify and move together as a people?
We start with a clear idea of the problem (which it seems you’ve failed to do if you’re not recognising the current inequality or it’s cause), and work on solutions from there (the process that was followed with the statement from the heart) rather than tossing out any targeted solutions immediately and without assessment because you think they’re racist anti racial equality.
Again, you’re in full attack mode. It won’t work on a person that recognises the wild division and refuses to participate in any form of division.
Seeming as you know nothing about me—who I am, what I have done, what I do, and what I’m involved in—please, I’d love to hear what makes you say something like this…
We start with a clear idea of the problem (which it seems you’ve failed to do if you’re not recognising the current inequality or it’s cause)
I’m clearly not participating and am refusing to get into the box you’re trying to put me in. I hope you don’t try to do this to other people as it is of no help. It’s a good thing I’m aware and know what I advocate for—the irony is phenomenal right now—but if this were another person, you could be damaging the cause. It’s feeding that division we don’t need right now and perhaps it has swallowed you up too. Move on with that energy, get better at using it proactively and effectively. I don’t know how many times I have to say that, but if anything gets through, it’s clearly that.
Where exactly have I attacked you or told you what you believe?
Asking people to pick their box is a pretty quick and effective way of shaking out peoples positions, and either understand why my framing is wrong, or shake out peoples’ positions quickly.
In response to you saying indigenous represesentation in the constitution is racist, I pointed out the existing racial inequality, and pointed to the 2 possible root causes. I assume you don’t think the gap is genetic, so how do we address the gap, and racism baked into the system without mention of race (or whatever you belive crosses the line into racism) - this is straight to the point, and you ran from it.
So far, you’ve told me I don’t understand your positions as you’ve dodged just about every question I’ve asked about them, and made assertions like I don’t understand the definition of racism while failing to point out where my definition is wrong or provide an alternative. This is bad-faith behaviour, and the kind of nonsense I see from the likes of closet Nazis who will turn up, ‘just ask questions’, and sow seeds of doubt while trying to hide their beliefs because they know it’ll scare away any sane person, but will drop straight to the JQ when you ask a couple of questions. I don’t think you’re a Nazi, but I do wonder why you’re sticking around to use so many words to say so little.
I’m perfectly happy being hostile toward racists, and want division between myself and Nazis - they didn’t reason themselves into the racism, so I’m not going to be able to reason them out of it, so chasing them off and ridiculing then seems reasonable enough. If you’re carrying on like a bad-faith actor, dodging my questions about what you believe while making unsubstantiated claims about me, where does that leave us?
You called the man a racist and in this responce called him a nazi and a facist.
You fail to understand that the world canot be divided into boxes of black and white and in fact consists upon a spectrum of grey.
Again you are assuming the root cause is in some sence based upon race, ironicaly the stolen generation disproves that (its a tragedy and never should have happened but go measure those metrics ur so concerned with). He ran from no point u raised that without adressing his original points.
Again calling the man a nazi for asking questions and calling that bad faith is itself bad faith and sowing seeds of doubt in his charecter (not a good look when someone is trying ti engage with you and understand and question ur point of view).
You then wrap this all up by straight up assuming this dude is a full blown nazi and that its you duty to ridicule them. I think if you go and look at a certain angry mustache man from history you will find he got his original support from speaches where he quite literaly reason people into being nazis. Assuming its ur goal to reduce rasism (im assuming ur not just part of a false flag opperation) it is in ur interest to engage with them in good faith to try change their mind.
You finish with
If you’re carrying on like a bad-faith actor, dodging my questions about what you believe while making unsubstantiated claims about me, where does that leave us?
Without realising you arw the one who has been making unsubstantiated claims aboit charecter and engaging in bad faith i suggeat you think criticaly about everything you think and say to try break down your arguments from all perspectives. To argue with yourself in the shower to take nothing at face value to use that noggin of urs to find the incentives for why people act the way they do. And maybe in this proccess you will leaen something about human nature and yourself. Heres hoping anyways
Only read this after you have sent ur responce:
!im betting on u flippin ur lid having a tantrum and calling me a nazi!<
You don’t actually expect to be taken seriously, do you?
You’ve seen me ask this person questions to shake out their views, then when they’re repeatedly dodged, noted that I frequently see this particular brand of evasiveness from the likes of Nazis while explicitly saying I don’t think they’re a Nazi.
You’ve jumped in like some kind of weird white knight, as though they can’t speak for themselves, tell me I’m calling them a Nazi Then with that moronic, dishonest interpretation of what I’ve said on the table (a big ol’ lie), you then saw fit to whine about nuance, then move to telling me I’m making unsubstantiated claims.
Why do you act the way you do? Having spent the time to use that noggin of yours to find my incentives as you preach, what do you hope to achieve with these lies?
I was simply pointing out ur hypocracy. I jumped in to ridicule ur utter lack of critical thinking perhaps to help you understand that by advocating for such a thing can just as easily be returned upon u.
Why do i act the way i do? Because im an engineer who when faced with an issue choose to look at numbers, statistics, and history. Hard facts. I then attempt to come as close to an objective framework as possible. From that point i simply apply the scientific method and gradient decent to find a solution that makes the most change in the most effective manner.
I am simply trying to emplore you to think about issues criticaly and not just spout the same retoric you have been told to think. I do not lie i draw a perspective from reality same as everyone.
You led about me calling them a Nazi - I did the opposite, stating outright that I don’t think they’re a Nazi.
You lied about me assuming the root cause is race - I never said this, and heavily implied it’s systemic (rather than genetic).
You lied about the unsubstantiated bad-faith claims - I tied this firmly to the evasiveness - particulary when asked if the root cause is genetic or systemic
You made incorrect assumptions about me losing it and calling you a Nazi.
You lied about not lying.
So much for those “Hard facts”. For you to then tell me to think critically and that you draw your perspective from reality after grounding everything you have to say in utter bullshit is laughable.
I’ll concede on the lying point if you bite the bullet and admit you’re just a moron, but sadly that doesn’t make you any less wrong, or worth listening to.
I called you a liar because you were lying. I not only didn’t call them a Nazi, I actively said I don’t think they’re a Nazi. If you’d like to quote me calling them a Nazi, I’ll happy walk that back with an apology.
If you get upset about your lies being called out, just don’t tell them. It makes life far simpler.
In response to you saying indigenous represesentation in the constitution is racist
This is your problem. You have made this up in your head and the rest is subsequently unrelatable. Your questions are to that person in your head, certainly not me. What I have said has never altered or been unclear and this is what I find disheartening abiut your actions and behaviour.
Once again missing the entire point division based upon race within the constitution cannot and will never be equality. I give zero flying fucks what the cause is I will fight inequality at any point I possibly can. I am not willing to compromise on equality off all peoples and if you would like to argue that its a necessary evil for the greater good i know of a very angry, very dead Austrian, who used those exact same arguments.
Sir i beleive what u just did was conflate correlation with causation. U outlined the issue perfwctly urself.
We’re factually not equal, and defence of the status quo that led to that perpetuates that inequality, again begs the question of whether the inequality is genetic
Worse by which metrics is a very important point. Lower educarion for instance is correlated with being indiginouse but its also correlated with bwing poor which is also correlated with a million other things.
Fundamentaly by framing it as an issue of race we arent making anything better. And we for sure arnt making equality. What you are implying is by tackling the racial issue we are takling the causational root of all these issues.
It has bewn provwn time a rime again that u cant fix a problem rampent in any minority by simply throughing money or power at it one must methodicaly go through every single issue one by one and fix it.
Why dont we start with education then move to wealth inequality then we can reevaluate the measurable difference at that point. We have had variouse advisory bodies for many years at this point many of them have done nothing except act as a virtue signal for the holyer than thou type (you).
How aboit u propose a measurable solution instead of just calling everyone racist and getting ur nickers in a twist.
First up, sorry if I’m misunderstanding anything you’re saying - I’m sure you realise your spelling is a dumpster-fire that makes it difficult to parse what you’re saying at times.
Worse by which metrics is a very important point.
As I said - choose - it doesn’t make much difference. They’re worse off by just about any metric you care to examine - infant mortality, life expectancy, incarceration rates, wealth, homelessness, employment rates, educational attainment and outcomes to name a few…
Lower educarion for instance is correlated with being indiginouse but its also correlated with bwing poor which is also correlated with a million other things.
Correct - this is all intersectional, and don’t get me wrong - I’m all for solving for wealth inequality, but why is the indigenous population’s mean household income 62% of that of the non-indigenous population? Feel free to do my job for me and chase the "why"s down to genetics or systemic failures that need to be addressed with methods other than the ones in place today that clearly aren’t working.
Fundamentaly by framing it as an issue of race we arent making anything better. And we for sure arnt making equality.
We have a group of people that are materially worse off by almost any metric (whose land we’ve stolen, and genocided them) - why is it unreasonable to isolate this problem and seek to address it, while isolating the poor and seeking to address those problems is fine? We have issues with race, gender, wealth, even fucking height - this is a particularly egregious one, and ignoring the fact that indigenous Australians are so much worse off defends the current, massively racist status-quo
What you are implying is by tackling the racial issue we are takling the causational root of all these issues.
No I’m absolutely not - what on earth gave you this impression? As far as I’m concerned, the root causes are colonialism, capitalism, and racism. All I’m doing is advocating for indigenous Australians to have a greater say in issues that affect them because they’re more likely to understand those issues than some white private-schoolboy that’s barely stepped outside Canberra or Sydney (while they’ve been in Australia, at least).
It has bewn provwn time a rime again that u cant fix a problem rampent in any minority by simply throughing money or power at it one must methodicaly go through every single issue one by one and fix it.
So “shut up and wait - we’ll fix the issues we’ve created for you that we’ve failed to address over the course of two centuries without enfranchising you, investing in you, or acknowledging you as a distinct racial bloc with distinct issues”? Absolute nonsense.
Why dont we start with education then move to wealth inequality then we can reevaluate the measurable difference at that point. We have had variouse advisory bodies for many years at this point many of them have done nothing except act as a virtue signal for the holyer than thou type (you).
While I’m not opposed to helping them with education (without acknowledging them as a distinct group with distinct issues or throwing any money at the problem?) I’d rather partner with the indigenous community to do so. Deferring to the variety of current and historical advisory bodies allows the government to simply select a group that aligns with their agenda, and do whatever suits them. I’ll simply point to the current, massive inequality as an indicator of how well that approach is working. If I’m being holier than thou for pointing out the current approach doesn’t work and wanting to give the affected stakeholders a voice in the solutions to issues affecting them, fuck me, I guess.
How aboit u propose a measurable solution instead of just calling everyone racist and getting ur nickers in a twist.
Maybe start with the voice to parliament, eh? Was it not clear that was what I’m advocating for? You seem well meaning, but fuck me this is dumb.
In that case, what do you mean when you say:
If you think the gap is genetic, you’re a racist motivated by racism, and the solutions are irrelevant. If the issue is systemic racism, what’s anti-equality about targeting the affected group to bring their outcomes to a more equal level?
Beyond the points above, the specific options presented seem irrelevant. There’s no pleasing the racists that see indigenous people as genetically inferior, it seems you’d label any targeted solution as racial anti-equality (racism by another name), and we’re not taking a transition to a socialist utopia to a referendum any time soon.
The solution taken to the referendum was a product of the Uluru statement from the heart and associated activity, developed in partnership with the indigenous community, and supported by ~80% of the indigenous population. I figure they understand “how Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders and their nations work, (and) the history of support to this point.” better than anyone.
The solution presented was inadequate in my opinion, but a start. What solution would effectively deliver something resembling racial equality without being targeted “racial anti-equality”?
I don’t think you quite understand what racism fundamentally is. And I still don’t understand how anything you’re saying has anything to do with what I’ve said. You’re simply looking for a fight, but there is none there.
Any effective solution to racial equality does not allow people to have things that others don’t based on race; whether intended for good or bad, no exception. We are all equal.
If you can’t understand that, it’s a worry. Constantly dropping the racism card is just mind-blowing levels of misunderstanding and showing an “us” and “them” mindset, even if your intentions are good. This is the kind of behaviour that damages progress and puts a bad taste in people’s mouth; it is division where there should be unity. Societies cannot move forward and build on foundations that have a divide. That has and never will fundamentally work in the long-term; we know this.
Perhaps instead of being so upset, trying to start arguments, and dropping the racism card completely out of context, you start doing something proactive. Everyone else already is, especially Elders of both sides of the vote. Why did this not work? Do Australians care that much? How do we unify and move together as a people? This is the main objective and where your energy is best placed.
Except by just about any metric you choose to look at, indigenous Australians are materially worse off. We’re factually not equal, and defence of the status quo that led to that perpetuates that inequality, again begs the question of whether the inequality is genetic (absurd, and racist, but if taken at face value could possibly be used to defend the status quo), or systemic - demonstrating that the system is currently racist and needs to be fixed.
We start with a clear idea of the problem (which it seems you’ve failed to do if you’re not recognising the current inequality or it’s cause), and work on solutions from there (the process that was followed with the statement from the heart) rather than tossing out any targeted solutions immediately and without assessment because you think they’re
racistanti racial equality.Again, you’re in full attack mode. It won’t work on a person that recognises the wild division and refuses to participate in any form of division.
Seeming as you know nothing about me—who I am, what I have done, what I do, and what I’m involved in—please, I’d love to hear what makes you say something like this…
I’m clearly not participating and am refusing to get into the box you’re trying to put me in. I hope you don’t try to do this to other people as it is of no help. It’s a good thing I’m aware and know what I advocate for—the irony is phenomenal right now—but if this were another person, you could be damaging the cause. It’s feeding that division we don’t need right now and perhaps it has swallowed you up too. Move on with that energy, get better at using it proactively and effectively. I don’t know how many times I have to say that, but if anything gets through, it’s clearly that.
Where exactly have I attacked you or told you what you believe?
Asking people to pick their box is a pretty quick and effective way of shaking out peoples positions, and either understand why my framing is wrong, or shake out peoples’ positions quickly.
In response to you saying indigenous represesentation in the constitution is racist, I pointed out the existing racial inequality, and pointed to the 2 possible root causes. I assume you don’t think the gap is genetic, so how do we address the gap, and racism baked into the system without mention of race (or whatever you belive crosses the line into racism) - this is straight to the point, and you ran from it.
So far, you’ve told me I don’t understand your positions as you’ve dodged just about every question I’ve asked about them, and made assertions like I don’t understand the definition of racism while failing to point out where my definition is wrong or provide an alternative. This is bad-faith behaviour, and the kind of nonsense I see from the likes of closet Nazis who will turn up, ‘just ask questions’, and sow seeds of doubt while trying to hide their beliefs because they know it’ll scare away any sane person, but will drop straight to the JQ when you ask a couple of questions. I don’t think you’re a Nazi, but I do wonder why you’re sticking around to use so many words to say so little.
I’m perfectly happy being hostile toward racists, and want division between myself and Nazis - they didn’t reason themselves into the racism, so I’m not going to be able to reason them out of it, so chasing them off and ridiculing then seems reasonable enough. If you’re carrying on like a bad-faith actor, dodging my questions about what you believe while making unsubstantiated claims about me, where does that leave us?
You called the man a racist and in this responce called him a nazi and a facist.
You fail to understand that the world canot be divided into boxes of black and white and in fact consists upon a spectrum of grey.
Again you are assuming the root cause is in some sence based upon race, ironicaly the stolen generation disproves that (its a tragedy and never should have happened but go measure those metrics ur so concerned with). He ran from no point u raised that without adressing his original points.
Again calling the man a nazi for asking questions and calling that bad faith is itself bad faith and sowing seeds of doubt in his charecter (not a good look when someone is trying ti engage with you and understand and question ur point of view).
You then wrap this all up by straight up assuming this dude is a full blown nazi and that its you duty to ridicule them. I think if you go and look at a certain angry mustache man from history you will find he got his original support from speaches where he quite literaly reason people into being nazis. Assuming its ur goal to reduce rasism (im assuming ur not just part of a false flag opperation) it is in ur interest to engage with them in good faith to try change their mind.
You finish with
Without realising you arw the one who has been making unsubstantiated claims aboit charecter and engaging in bad faith i suggeat you think criticaly about everything you think and say to try break down your arguments from all perspectives. To argue with yourself in the shower to take nothing at face value to use that noggin of urs to find the incentives for why people act the way they do. And maybe in this proccess you will leaen something about human nature and yourself. Heres hoping anyways
Only read this after you have sent ur responce:
You don’t actually expect to be taken seriously, do you?
You’ve seen me ask this person questions to shake out their views, then when they’re repeatedly dodged, noted that I frequently see this particular brand of evasiveness from the likes of Nazis while explicitly saying I don’t think they’re a Nazi.
You’ve jumped in like some kind of weird white knight, as though they can’t speak for themselves, tell me I’m calling them a Nazi Then with that moronic, dishonest interpretation of what I’ve said on the table (a big ol’ lie), you then saw fit to whine about nuance, then move to telling me I’m making unsubstantiated claims.
Why do you act the way you do? Having spent the time to use that noggin of yours to find my incentives as you preach, what do you hope to achieve with these lies?
I was simply pointing out ur hypocracy. I jumped in to ridicule ur utter lack of critical thinking perhaps to help you understand that by advocating for such a thing can just as easily be returned upon u.
Why do i act the way i do? Because im an engineer who when faced with an issue choose to look at numbers, statistics, and history. Hard facts. I then attempt to come as close to an objective framework as possible. From that point i simply apply the scientific method and gradient decent to find a solution that makes the most change in the most effective manner.
I am simply trying to emplore you to think about issues criticaly and not just spout the same retoric you have been told to think. I do not lie i draw a perspective from reality same as everyone.
What hypocrisy did you point out?
You led about me calling them a Nazi - I did the opposite, stating outright that I don’t think they’re a Nazi.
You lied about me assuming the root cause is race - I never said this, and heavily implied it’s systemic (rather than genetic).
You lied about the unsubstantiated bad-faith claims - I tied this firmly to the evasiveness - particulary when asked if the root cause is genetic or systemic
You made incorrect assumptions about me losing it and calling you a Nazi.
You lied about not lying.
So much for those “Hard facts”. For you to then tell me to think critically and that you draw your perspective from reality after grounding everything you have to say in utter bullshit is laughable.
I’ll concede on the lying point if you bite the bullet and admit you’re just a moron, but sadly that doesn’t make you any less wrong, or worth listening to.
Oh look - I didn’t call you a Nazi either.
Wonderful im glad your working towards not being so unesaasarily hostile. You did call me a lier tho maybe you can work on that next.
I called you a liar because you were lying. I not only didn’t call them a Nazi, I actively said I don’t think they’re a Nazi. If you’d like to quote me calling them a Nazi, I’ll happy walk that back with an apology.
If you get upset about your lies being called out, just don’t tell them. It makes life far simpler.
This is your problem. You have made this up in your head and the rest is subsequently unrelatable. Your questions are to that person in your head, certainly not me. What I have said has never altered or been unclear and this is what I find disheartening abiut your actions and behaviour.
I wish you well.
Once again missing the entire point division based upon race within the constitution cannot and will never be equality. I give zero flying fucks what the cause is I will fight inequality at any point I possibly can. I am not willing to compromise on equality off all peoples and if you would like to argue that its a necessary evil for the greater good i know of a very angry, very dead Austrian, who used those exact same arguments.
Sir i beleive what u just did was conflate correlation with causation. U outlined the issue perfwctly urself.
Worse by which metrics is a very important point. Lower educarion for instance is correlated with being indiginouse but its also correlated with bwing poor which is also correlated with a million other things.
Fundamentaly by framing it as an issue of race we arent making anything better. And we for sure arnt making equality. What you are implying is by tackling the racial issue we are takling the causational root of all these issues.
It has bewn provwn time a rime again that u cant fix a problem rampent in any minority by simply throughing money or power at it one must methodicaly go through every single issue one by one and fix it.
Why dont we start with education then move to wealth inequality then we can reevaluate the measurable difference at that point. We have had variouse advisory bodies for many years at this point many of them have done nothing except act as a virtue signal for the holyer than thou type (you).
How aboit u propose a measurable solution instead of just calling everyone racist and getting ur nickers in a twist.
First up, sorry if I’m misunderstanding anything you’re saying - I’m sure you realise your spelling is a dumpster-fire that makes it difficult to parse what you’re saying at times.
We have a group of people that are materially worse off by almost any metric (whose land we’ve stolen, and genocided them) - why is it unreasonable to isolate this problem and seek to address it, while isolating the poor and seeking to address those problems is fine? We have issues with race, gender, wealth, even fucking height - this is a particularly egregious one, and ignoring the fact that indigenous Australians are so much worse off defends the current, massively racist status-quo
No I’m absolutely not - what on earth gave you this impression? As far as I’m concerned, the root causes are colonialism, capitalism, and racism. All I’m doing is advocating for indigenous Australians to have a greater say in issues that affect them because they’re more likely to understand those issues than some white private-schoolboy that’s barely stepped outside Canberra or Sydney (while they’ve been in Australia, at least).
So “shut up and wait - we’ll fix the issues we’ve created for you that we’ve failed to address over the course of two centuries without enfranchising you, investing in you, or acknowledging you as a distinct racial bloc with distinct issues”? Absolute nonsense.
While I’m not opposed to helping them with education (without acknowledging them as a distinct group with distinct issues or throwing any money at the problem?) I’d rather partner with the indigenous community to do so. Deferring to the variety of current and historical advisory bodies allows the government to simply select a group that aligns with their agenda, and do whatever suits them. I’ll simply point to the current, massive inequality as an indicator of how well that approach is working. If I’m being holier than thou for pointing out the current approach doesn’t work and wanting to give the affected stakeholders a voice in the solutions to issues affecting them, fuck me, I guess.
Maybe start with the voice to parliament, eh? Was it not clear that was what I’m advocating for? You seem well meaning, but fuck me this is dumb.