An investigation by Gamers Nexus found LG smart TVs sweep local networks to map phones and nearby devices. Tests also showed the sets can capture microphone audio with the screen off — they then upload data once reconnected to the internet.
EU really should regulate against this kind of behaviour
Problem us that there are too few tech literate politicians
Problem is lobbying.
The problem is the system that allows for corruption to exist in the first place.
It’s not the politicians job to know everything but to make decisions and legislate based on information from the expertise. It is the people in the know that need to make the proposals for the politicians to bring it up. It’s us, the tech literate, that need to write proposals that are informative with arguments derived from trusted sources to make the politicians aware that these are concerns that need to be addressed.
Sadly, I don’t have time or money to do that. You know who does? Big tech does!
Let’s all lie belly up and do nothing and accept that nothing will ever change for the better because nobody else is doing it for us and it is impossible for us to change the world all alone. This is exactly the defeatist mindset that the economic elites want people to have.
You could do something small, like find out your representatives and write a personal mail to them, informing them from your point of view. With enough people doing small things and some doing big things the chances for things like this gaining traction are magnitudes bigger than giving up in advance. It takes a few hours to a few days depending on your dedication and whatever cost coffee is in your area of residence.
It’s so refreshing finding someone with that kind of opinion. I feel less lonely.
I can’t tell if this comment thread is filled with doomer basement dweller defeatists that use their worldview as excuse to not even try or foreign bot farms pushing said agenda.
It can be both.
Yeah sorry, it’s not just time and money,but also skill. I’m not the person you choose to convince people to do something. That’s why we choose representatives. That’s why we vote.
You have the time. Get off the internet.
Can’t you see I’m working right now?!
It is the people in the know that need to make the proposals
No, it’s the politician’s job to get in touch with experts of any given field.
They prefer lobbyists instead because they are corrupt.After proposals come in, yes. If the only proposals coming in are from lobbyists of various corporations and interest groups, guess which matters are going to be on the table?
You’re still portraying the politician as a passive entity, they’re not.
And you seem to think that EU politics is a closed court accessible only for political royalty, which it is not.
The fucked up part is that “expertise” is assumed to be exclusively found in the industry being regulated. Bill Gates is a respected industry expert, but RMS is just some dumbfuck nobody because he’s not “in the industry”.
They could educate themselves or hire help, if they weren’t corrupt.
Maybe read what you write? No reason to make yourself look so dumb (and just to state the obvious, I’m not disagreeing at all, just pointing out what should be obvious but apparently isn’t).
EU lobbies won’t ever allow it.
In the later years the EU regulations have been massively disappointing. Only favouring big EU companies and destroying little businesses and the european consumers.
Some disappointing eu regulations:
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The cookiesgate. Your data is still going around everywhere. You just have a pop up everywhere that means nothing.
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¿Replaceable batteries on smartphones? No, only for cheap chinese phones if so. The big players can pay for some european certification on the quality of their batteries and doesn’t need to be replaceable.
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¿Stop killing games? Hahahaha don’t ever think about it.
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You are buying too much, we need you poorer. So we put up a 3€ tariffs per
categoryproduct on chinese stores so you are forced to buy the exact same product to an european retailer at twice the price. -
We heard you like the environment, what about a new complicated tax on packaging so all small business cannot function and only big business are allowed to send products within the european union.
I think the days of the EU legislation saving the day are far off.
on chinese stores
Wrong. It’s on items purchased from any non-EU countries. So it also includes the Irish purchasing from UK.
Implying the British actually make anything the Irish want. Come on now lad. 🤣
And yet, they’ve been the best government on the planet for the working class.
That charge is not just on Chinese stores. I manufacture my own product in the usa through a factory i own and get hit with those fucking charges.
Then I’ve got to pay for all this cardboard and plastic but OH LOOK there’s a minimum fee so I’m subsidizing larger businesses or Europeans in general. AND I need to pay for a European contact to do it! Fuck yourselves for that one.
Eu regulation is hostile to small business and they will be left with nothing but major shitty international corps at this rate.
In the USA, you say?
“Oh no”.
Anyway…
I mean the whole point of this is to subsidize small business in the EU at the expense of businesses outside the EU. The fact it is more difficult and costly for you is exactly the point. They want to support businesses and workers in the EU, because that’s where their people actually are, that’s where their taxes are, that’s where they support infrastructure and social programs.
It is true that it favors larger international corporations, because they have near monopolies and csn manage all of this at a smaller relative cost. The solution of course is to make tariffs and other import duties scale with the size of the company.
So the EU regulations are not perfect, they do hurt international small businesses while protecting in part local small businesses. They need, like everyone, to deal with the problem of international monopoly companies and restore more and more of their manufacturing and product development into more and more local small businesses.
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If anyone does, EU will be the first.
Secretly recording conversations in peoples homes sounds like it should be against the law in a number of countries.
Imagine someone working for the government, security services, or a defence contractor. I suspect LG may be in trouble with a number of National Security agencies.
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Shareholders must be held responsible individually
So, are you personally on the hook here because the company managing your pension fund is holding stocks in LG? Because that technically makes you a shareholder as it was bought with your money, right?
Edit: not sure why I get downvoted, this is a legitimate concern/nuance to the debate. The managing company doesn’t own these stocks so they’re not the shareholders, that’s the people whose money they are managing, but these people are not directly in control of the funds. Who is the liable party in this?
The highest level employee/officer who had knowledge of it should be held responsible
you can’t prove they did.
I mean, depending on the scale you probably can with investigation.
Being deliberately ignorant should not be a defense. Just like it isn’t for the peasants.
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90 percent of stocks are owned by ten percent of Americans. Just throwing this fact out here
That might stop this madness.
See the thing is if your pension also funds a murder company does outsourcing who manages it not make you at least a little culpable? I think it does and i think the only way to stop this madness is for a little justice to come your way.
does outsourcing who manages it not make you at least a little culpable
What if i have no control over who manages it? I have two, one is government managed and mandatory, the other is part of my salary (and mandatory) and who manages my company paid pension is decided by my employer. I have no control of either aside from general risk profile and high level market groups on my company paid pension (e.g. “tech” or “renewable energy”).
That just sounds like a good way to destroy index funds.
Okay.
Also, which shareholders? Shareholders have no say in the business decisions outside of the annual voting for board members and whatever broad issues are brought up for a vote. If someone holds stock and then sells it before a vote, are they responsible for the business decisions? If a swing trader bought and then sold in one day/week/month (even at a loss), how much is their liability? If someone sells their shares just before a vote, then buys them again after, are they liable?
Not shareholders. Decision makers. Upper management. Shareholders should pay in share value (the financial penalty to the corporations should be high enough to affect that), bu the personal an criminal responsibility belongs to managers, CEO in particular.
There should at least be something resembling an attempt of investigating, who, where, and when signed an order to implement this shit into their products. That way they will at least think twice if they want to risk the chance of being held personally responsible.
Recording without consent is very much a crime in any two-party state, but my guess is that the TOS that people click past to use the TV gives them permission to record you. If it didn’t, they would be in big legal hot water.
Clicking through ToS does not magically make illegal things legal.
Consenting to recording makes recording legal.
Making that consent required to use the TV or its features and it being buried within lengthy, opaque terms of service in a country with a low level of literacy should be illegal, but it stands in the US because it’s a consumer hostile country.
A TOS presented after an electronic device has been sold is not valid in most of the World since it’s considered an attempt to, after the sale, force a change of the terms of the implicit contract which is the sale.
A company can shove whatever they want in front of the customer as contract conditions they have to accept for a sale before the sale - by which point the potential customer can refuse and not buy or accept and buy - not after.
Of course, they don’t do that because they would lose most sales, so instead there’s a TOS or EULA which the owners of the devices are forced to agree to after the sale to fully enjoy that which they bought, but these are really just legal fictions in most countries.
Mind you, this does not apply to a subscription to an ongoing service, though even then at least in Europe, there are conditions they much obbey to have the customer accept a TOS or a TOS change after subscribing, such as it being possible for the customer to cancel the service at no cost rather than accept the new TOS.
Unconscionable bunk. It’s illegal anyway, just like how you can’t sign a contract to sell yourself into slavery.
If the courts won’t enforce it, vigilantes should.
“In any two-party state” what? That’s such a weird thing to say. Two-party systems are a worse version of applied democracy, that should be incredibly obvious. I just seriously don’t understand why you would even think about saying that it’s a crime in two-party states only, it’s so odd. If anything two-party states are more akin to not having strong laws against that because of the very fact of it. Look at the US, which I’m guessing is a big part of your mind in this. Do yourself a favor and search for countries two-party systems and their laws on this compared to actual democracies with more parties.
Call recording laws in some U.S. states require only one party to be aware of the recording, while other states generally require both parties to be aware. Several states require that all parties consent when one party wants to record a telephone conversation.
Or hired by those same agents of authority.
Should be. Hope it happens and quickly
Only in trouble if they didn’t loop them in on the audio feeds.
“We own the glass, we own the TV, we own the living room. We know who is in an LG home.” –LG President of Ads
These are the Gamers Nexus videos btw. Support them and their work. Get some cool shirts and physical media while you’re at it.
What is so dumb is he is banned from running a public company so they get him to run a private company. WTF the oligarchs are really this bad.
My LG TV runs WebOS, which is a linux distro. I have been wondering how hard it is to root and replace with a distro of my own choosing. I had thought because my TV is pretty old that I was safe from the more sophisticated spying, but last week it interrupted what I was watching and would not let me continue using it without agreeing to new terms of use. This revived my interest in rooting it.
I saw this linked the other day. I haven’t looked into it deeply or done it.
I rooted my C1 years ago. I spent weeks afterwards worried that I just destroyed the warranty of a $1,500 TV.
But today, I’ve never felt so justified.
I didn’t know LG webOS rooting was a thing, that’s interesting to know.
There is an open source version of webOS, although I don’t know how it compares to the stock LG version. Maybe there will eventually be something like a LineageOS equivalent.
Go look up “tivoization”. GPLv2 isn’t enough to protect you from this shit.
“The toaster is listening” in 2006 🤣
“The toaster is listening” in 2026 😬
Frakking toasters.
It’s 1984 for sure. Every devices listens.
SO SAY WE ALL!
I ran a packet capture on my TV as I left it turned off overnight.
They wake up in the middle of the night, do “stuff” then go back offline. Like a zombie.
I have a led backlight connected my TV’s usb port and I’ve noticed it comes on randomly when the TV is turned off, then turns off. This happens couple of times throughout the night, when the TV is clearly doing something
I have a Samsung TV that I suspect does this. Once upon a time (back when I was less knowledgeable about this practice) I connected my TV to the internet. I have since been totally I able to forget my network from the TV, even a factory reset didn’t wipe the network settings from it. I’ve had to block it from the network at a router level.
I only discovered it was still doing this when I got a new router, and I had a popup on my TV saying “software update downloaded and complete” and I was wondering how tf it did that even though I’d gone through the process of forgetting the network, and seemingly the settings showed it had been “done”.
Shady fucks.
Checks out. I wish this was a conspiracy - but they got caught shaking hands w CIA. most people forgot
using US tech - either domestic or foreign; youre being spied by both marketers or governments. sad but true
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vault_7
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cia-hacked-samsung-smart-tvs-wikileaks-vault-7/
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/mar/07/cia-targeting-devices-smartphones-pc-tv-wikileaks
The CIA didn’t work with Samsung; they found a vulnerability in Samsung TVs then didn’t tell anyone about it.
Ugh. So blocklists were not enough. Time to isolate my telly on the router.
If your television is connected to any network at all its already too late.
Even then it’s rumoured some brands of TV try to connect to Bluetooth connected devices to connect to the net. I think that was Samsung.
Wouldn’t that require bluetooth tethering?
I think the original coverage from Gamers Nexus should also be linked here:
Could you consider removing the
?is=...parameter from the link? That and si are tracking parameters used by YouTube to track who you refer videos to.Thank you for the info 🙏
you did not correctly remove it, you have just hidden it with markdown. probably your client handles it like that when you paste over a link
there was a time… long past I suppose …when this would have been an outrage and politicians would be holding press conferences where they took crowbar swings to such devices. Things sure have changed.
This is why my tv’s don’t get internet access.
My TVs don’t get connected to the network because TV companies have started showing ads, and that was bad enough. Then came the fact that a lot of TV apps were making your TV into a residential proxy, making your TV into part of a botnet. And now, on top of all that, they’re spying on you.
The ads were bad enough.
In any reasonable world you would have control over devices in your house that contained computers and would be able to remove bad software and install your own stuff. But, these devices are all covered by section 1201 of the DMCA which makes it a crime to bypass any access control software. This is how Apple is able to block alternate app stores. It’s why printer ink is the most expensive liquid on the planet. It’s why John Deere is able to remotely brick a tractor anywhere in the world, and prevent farmers from fixing their own farm equipment.
What’s especially galling about this is that, the US forced the rest of the world to adopt this bullshit as a part of trade treaties, threatening that any country that didn’t do it might lose tariff-free access to the US economy. And now what happened? Trump just ripped up those treaties anyhow and imposed the tariffs anyhow.
I just wish there was a country brave enough to rip up the IP agreements the US forced on them and allow us to actually own our own stuff again.
He hacked it without internet access and also show that they can collect data without internet access
This is why I don’t buy smart TVs in the first place.
Unless you’re buying a commercial screen of some kind, you can’t really buy dumb TVs anymore, at least not from the major brands.
You can still buy dumb TVs you just have to search for them. You can also go off brand and get a dumb TV from a brand like sceptre.
I searched and couldn’t find a modern OLED from a reputable brand that didn’t have “smart” features.
I just went to the Sceptre website, they have non-smart TVs listed. You just have to look at the listings. I’m sure there are other brands, I’ve just had good luck with Sceptre so I stopped looking.
I just don’t have a TV.
I mean that works too, I’m just not a fan of watching things on computer monitors. Sometimes I just want to sit in a recliner and watch a movie on a larger screen.
Yeah that’s fair. Personally, I live in a really small space so steam deck and phone are my only devices. Don’t think I’d feel comfortable with a TV that reported back on me - but TBF I do have a phone which I’m sure is doing that anyway!
I’m lucky enough to have the room for a TV and chair so I take advantage of it. Though I do mostly spend my time at the computer, so I have a small TV next tot he computer and just stream ad supported shows that I only half pay attention to. We all do what works for us.
Is this even possible or reasonable? Smart tvs are pretty dumb if you never connect them to the internet, so no issues until they decide to add 5g chips to them
Or… If your neighbor has an open network… Or the TV has a secret networking protocol that allows it to talk to other LG smart devices that are on a network. Or it looks for phones that have the LG app installed… You get the idea. Once you put wireless capabilities in it, there is any number of ways it can leak your data out.
Sure prove it. At least these are proven and now your just making stuff up.
Proving it is the hard and expensive part. I don’t really have the time, skillset, or money to buy a bunch of LG or other branded IoT devices, put them in an isolated test chamber and then try to decode all the RF noise come off them.
That being said, all the technical requirements to do the things I suggested in my previous comment currently exist in those smart TVs. All that was preventing LG from doing that was consumer trust, and they’ve clearly thrown that in the garbage. At this point, based on previous behavior, it should be assumed that they will go as far as possible to exfil customer data without their consent or knowledge, until proven otherwise.
I didn’t read the article and I’ve only watched the “trailer” for Gamers Nexus’ series on this so far, but I bet they actually do check this at some point.
My solution here (this is my solution; i recognize 99.5% of people would never do this) is to open up the tv and physically remove any wifi adapters or cards. Obviously not stopping them from hiding them, but being under the plastic shell is enough to stop most people
I was wondering about this type of fix. Just physically disconnecting, desoldering, or even destroying the wifi hardware and microphone(s). I’m sure they have the usual passive anti-tampering stuff, but I’m guessing it won’t brick the TV if you’re careful and know what you’re doing. Not that I know what I’m doing. But I’m capable of following a YouTube video showing me how to.
Non-smart TVs are still available, they just cost a bit more. As for the connectivity issue, China has been caught hiding 5g chips in electrical control systems and city buses, and selling “free streaming” boxes with malware that scans networks and attacks targets deemed worth while. And all these TVs are being manufactured in China so why take the risk when you aren’t going to use the connectivity anyway?
Specifically which ones? Are they any good? HDR, color accuracy etc?
I went with Sceptre, as for the specs, I’m half blind so all I can say is I can see everything clearly.
Bingo. No need to connect your display.
Yep an isolated vlan with no internet access. Cast your media from a dongel or computer connected via hdmi.
In the video they explained that the TV seemed like it was trying to find and connect to any connection available (some routers allow auto-connection for easy integration). This would probably be a huge issue in an apartment building or townhome situation.
I’m not entirely sure if they mentioned that was with Wifi enabled or disabled… But given that, even with the microphone input disabled, it records you from “other microphones” available, seemingly hidden, or through other devices connected to the TV… I assume they have a Wifi chip that is always enabled and searching.
Wow a faraday cage is needed then… :(
So this is why every product started to go standby, low power mode, instead of turning off.
Also because people whine when things take too long to turn on but yes this too
I never had a problem with older TVs’ boot times. In fact, I remember them being faster, the farther back I go…
They’ve been doing that since infrared remotes let you turn the TV on.
And that’s why I have a VLAN without outbound connections allowed. Still allows me to cast to the device from a separate vlan but the TV has no internet at all.
Seriously, this is the way. I did this too in about 15 mins. Also setup a simple rule to allow the vlan to reach my homeserver in a separate vlan specifically on Plex and Jellyfin ports. That’s it. They cant phone home. You still enjoy your own media.
Yeah if you setup the firewall correctly you can access the TV but the TV can’t access anything it self.
I’ve recently tried setting up VLANs on my network, but I’m very new to this type of networking. I’ve got a bunch of guides and videos bookmarked, but I haven’t successfully got things working yet. Would you happen to have any good resources for a beginner? I THINK I have all the hardware I’ll need—a Pi5 8GB with OpenWRT installed, a managed gigabit switch, and a router flashed with OpenWRT to act as an access point. And a ton of Ethernet cables. I’ve also got some Lenovo Tinys I could use with… Opnsense? once I’ve got more knowledge and skillz and stuff.
Did this a few month back. Then my Sony TV decided to hide all apps when it has no internet for a few weeks. I guess when the internal disk is filling up and it needs to phone home again. What a shit show!
So I had to connect again, but now https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.spocky.projengmenu is running, to hopefully never be coerced to go online again.
Jellyfin ftw.
Yup. I did this with my Vizio TV and it worked great for a while. Then the TV started rebooting mutiple times a day. If i disconnect it from the WiFi or let it have full internet access the problem stops. It seems that their “Smartcast” app will crash and force a reboot if it can’t phone home when it wants.
I paid good money for this TV back when Vizio wss considered a good brand and I hate to retire it just for this, so I’ve given up my nice Home Assistant integrations and it’s just a disconnected dumb TV now. You can’t downgeade the firmware either so they’ve essentially killed the smart features for me. Should be illegal.
Makes my blood boil. What a shit show.
Same here, smart devices go on a very restricted VLAN. Most only get access to Home Assistant for control.
Even without deliberate spying from these devices letting these things loose on the network at large has always seemed a bad idea to me.
Suggestions for people who only need and want a good screen instead of an ad infested spy station?
Use them as such, why would you give your screen Internet? Attach a Mediacenter of your choice, e.g. Kodi.
Update firmware over USB.
LGs will find nearby wifi that will let them on to phone home. It doesn’t matter if your own network is locked down. And if they’re doing it, it’s likely others are as well.
Used commercial displays maybe.
Bring on the TV firmware. Jailbreak your consoles. Use Linux or steal windows and use tools to completely rip its spyware out of it (e.g. https://revi.cc/).
Custom firmware anywhere and everywhere a device that someone supports with custom firmware is a feature worth researching.
The fucks are only going to jeep doing it. Protect yourself. Push for GDPR like laws in the US. California’s privacy laws are headed in the right direction.
