So start local with a third party, then. I hear DSA is actually having some luck building up that way, and once you built a local foundation, they actually become viable at higher levels. A third party is never going to just come out of nowhere and win the presidency, but with a foundation under them… Well, people are getting tired of Democrats, and they might be willing to entertain other options.
Plus, if they just get big enough, other parties can actually influence the platforms of the main parties. The corporate parties are never going to give us everything we want, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take what incremental change we can.
the opposite. Checks are written when the rich and genociders get the voters to vote like they want. By comparison, No one gets paid when we all choose to do the decent thing instead.
Personally I’m not against voting (although I’m against the “support the lesser evil” rhetoric). I just hate that libs constantly downplay political violence (whether it be direct violence against politicians or their supporters or destruction of property) as an available tool that must never be used unless absolutely necessary. That if you do use it, you must distance yourself from leftists, anti-capitalists, Democrats, and basically make it seem like you only did it cause you were bored. Not doing so would hurt us too much.
the heart of the issue seems to be the legitimacy that voting gives to a system – participate if you chose do, just do so w the awareness of the fact your participation was more beneficial to the status quo than it was to you.
and, yes, you do need to do more than just vote; but if you lack an understanding of why your increased participate is now necessary you’ll be treading water at best – like the democrats.
there have been people who’ve been in this situation before and wrote down what they did with the benefit hindsight included – if you look at their stuff you’ll find out what you need to do beyond voting.
The system gets legitimacy from the 150 million people who vote. A tiny minority of leftists refusing to participate does not delegitimize the system one iota. As a cis hetero white man, honestly my vote either way doesn’t affect me all that much, other than maybe being thrown in jail for leftist organizing. But it also doesn’t really affect the status quo either. I vote to benefit the people who would suffer under one choice more than the other: people of color, women, the LGBTQ community, immigrants, etc.
And yes, obviously we need to build an alternative where no one suffers, but that takes time. Personally, I prefer to at least attempt to minimize the suffering of others during that time. Accelerationism is sociopathy.
No, they’re suffering either way. My heart, and some of my money, goes out to them. But their suffering is not dependent on my vote. If it was, I would vote that way. But it isn’t.
I remember you told me immigrant children suffering in America was justified because they have the privilege of living in the imperial core, and then justified it saying they would suffer either way.
I said it was not the responsibility for the people outside the imperial core to take care of your children. You would rather other children suffer to have yours not, instead of fixing the system that originates from your fucking country
Like most people in all of history we wouldn’t have opposed the normalized oppression of other people, yes this is a fact.
But you are saying people during slavery were wrong for voting in favor of less slavery because it didn’t start with full human rights for slaves so they shouldn’t have voted at all.
People aren’t spineless for believing in a different strategy and even if they where, you are not selling your point of view very well. The sucess of your strategy would mean conving enough people not to vote and just name calling is not doing much.
There is the obvious Problem of all democracies and especially the US System but i don’t really see how more power to republicans will ever come close solving this.
I am very open to all kinds of strategies but i have yet to see any kind of data that suggests even more fascism will lead to a better outcome.
I wouldn’t have done stupid counterproductive shit that just made things worse without any benefit.
I think the “follower shit” comment betrays your bitterness at not actually having any followers. You’re never going to get your revolution if 99.999% of the population is too “spineless” to caucus with. If you can’t find common ground with other leftists who are already sold on communism because they disagree with your strategy, how in the absolute fuck are you expecting to persuade the liberal working class?
you’re either unwilling or unable to see that the things that the accelerationists want is the eventual outcome anyways because of the way the system is intentionally structured and history proves that nature will ensure that the commeuppance gets worse the longer we put off making a change.
turning the election into a farce through a lack of cooperating they way they want you to is the easiest & laziest way for an american to help induce such a change, but it will not work if too many people are unable/unwilling to see past the parliamentary mind games that makes you think that you’re helping the people they’re holding ransom for your vote.
I vote to benefit the people who would suffer under one choice more than the other: people of color, women, the LGBTQ community, immigrants, etc.
as a neurospicy queer brown immigrant, i implore you to stop – look at the pattern established by the last near century of the red vs blue team culture wars to recognize it for the smoke screen that it is.
turning the election into a farce through a lack of cooperating they way they want you to is the easiest & laziest way for an american to help induce such a change, but it will not work if too many people are unable/unwilling to see past the parliamentary mind games that makes you think that you’re helping the people they’re holding ransom for your vote.
Too many people are unable to see past the parliamentary mind games. If you can’t persuade a hundred million people, that strategy is pointless and ineffective. You can’t persuade a hundred million people, so this strategy is pointless and ineffective.
If you hear “voting for the polite fascists is not really better than voting for the loud ones” and take that as “don’t even bother trying”, then you really may as well not bother trying, bcs nothing you were trying was ever going to help, and most of it will just strengthen the fascists.
Please point to the part of the meme / title that encouraged voting for anyone let alone anything else. This is just disenpowerment and pushes the narrative that it’s hopeless to try anything at all under the guise of “liberals bad” (which I don’t necessarily disagree with, but this is training people to give up entirely)
So you really did hear “voting for the polite fascists is not really better than voting for the loud ones” and take that as “don’t even bother trying”.
You, specifically, should absolutely give up and don’t bother trying.
Capitalists must be so relieved that socialist and communist enclaves advocate disengaging from the electoral process, as if an afternoon or less spent voting, two if you vote in a primary, precludes one from otherwise protesting, organizing, or lifting a finger to resist.
Ah yes, more “don’t bother voting” propaganda.
The message should be “you need to do more than just vote”
Do radlibs have a MLM scheme where they get commission for getting people to vote for their cult leaders?
(I mean that would explain why they’re so desparate that they even try to shill voting to their worst enemies, the anti-imperialists)
So start local with a third party, then. I hear DSA is actually having some luck building up that way, and once you built a local foundation, they actually become viable at higher levels. A third party is never going to just come out of nowhere and win the presidency, but with a foundation under them… Well, people are getting tired of Democrats, and they might be willing to entertain other options.
Plus, if they just get big enough, other parties can actually influence the platforms of the main parties. The corporate parties are never going to give us everything we want, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t take what incremental change we can.
the opposite. Checks are written when the rich and genociders get the voters to vote like they want. By comparison, No one gets paid when we all choose to do the decent thing instead.
Why would they pay off the voters when they can just pay off the lawmakers? Way cheaper.
Personally I’m not against voting (although I’m against the “support the lesser evil” rhetoric). I just hate that libs constantly downplay political violence (whether it be direct violence against politicians or their supporters or destruction of property) as an available tool that must never be used unless absolutely necessary. That if you do use it, you must distance yourself from leftists, anti-capitalists, Democrats, and basically make it seem like you only did it cause you were bored. Not doing so would hurt us too much.
the heart of the issue seems to be the legitimacy that voting gives to a system – participate if you chose do, just do so w the awareness of the fact your participation was more beneficial to the status quo than it was to you.
and, yes, you do need to do more than just vote; but if you lack an understanding of why your increased participate is now necessary you’ll be treading water at best – like the democrats.
there have been people who’ve been in this situation before and wrote down what they did with the benefit hindsight included – if you look at their stuff you’ll find out what you need to do beyond voting.
The system gets legitimacy from the 150 million people who vote. A tiny minority of leftists refusing to participate does not delegitimize the system one iota. As a cis hetero white man, honestly my vote either way doesn’t affect me all that much, other than maybe being thrown in jail for leftist organizing. But it also doesn’t really affect the status quo either. I vote to benefit the people who would suffer under one choice more than the other: people of color, women, the LGBTQ community, immigrants, etc.
And yes, obviously we need to build an alternative where no one suffers, but that takes time. Personally, I prefer to at least attempt to minimize the suffering of others during that time. Accelerationism is sociopathy.
The people being Palestinians, got it.
No, they’re suffering either way. My heart, and some of my money, goes out to them. But their suffering is not dependent on my vote. If it was, I would vote that way. But it isn’t.
yeah you don’t care about genocide. They are suffering because of people like you.
Fucking disgusting person
Removed by mod
I said it was not the responsibility for the people outside the imperial core to take care of your children. You would rather other children suffer to have yours not, instead of fixing the system that originates from your fucking country
Removed by mod
Yikes.
Absolute spineless follower shit, you would 100% have done nothing to oppose slavery
Like most people in all of history we wouldn’t have opposed the normalized oppression of other people, yes this is a fact.
But you are saying people during slavery were wrong for voting in favor of less slavery because it didn’t start with full human rights for slaves so they shouldn’t have voted at all.
People aren’t spineless for believing in a different strategy and even if they where, you are not selling your point of view very well. The sucess of your strategy would mean conving enough people not to vote and just name calling is not doing much.
There is the obvious Problem of all democracies and especially the US System but i don’t really see how more power to republicans will ever come close solving this.
I am very open to all kinds of strategies but i have yet to see any kind of data that suggests even more fascism will lead to a better outcome.
Tell me more about the slaves who voted for less slavery.
I wouldn’t have done stupid counterproductive shit that just made things worse without any benefit.
I think the “follower shit” comment betrays your bitterness at not actually having any followers. You’re never going to get your revolution if 99.999% of the population is too “spineless” to caucus with. If you can’t find common ground with other leftists who are already sold on communism because they disagree with your strategy, how in the absolute fuck are you expecting to persuade the liberal working class?
Like voting for democrats
you’re either unwilling or unable to see that the things that the accelerationists want is the eventual outcome anyways because of the way the system is intentionally structured and history proves that nature will ensure that the commeuppance gets worse the longer we put off making a change.
turning the election into a farce through a lack of cooperating they way they want you to is the easiest & laziest way for an american to help induce such a change, but it will not work if too many people are unable/unwilling to see past the parliamentary mind games that makes you think that you’re helping the people they’re holding ransom for your vote.
as a neurospicy queer brown immigrant, i implore you to stop – look at the pattern established by the last near century of the red vs blue team culture wars to recognize it for the smoke screen that it is.
Too many people are unable to see past the parliamentary mind games. If you can’t persuade a hundred million people, that strategy is pointless and ineffective. You can’t persuade a hundred million people, so this strategy is pointless and ineffective.
it’s pointless for me to try because i can’t, but mother nature can and she will.
Agamoronymous
Pushing “don’t even bother trying” is just supporting the fascists.
Both parties are fascist
If you hear “voting for the polite fascists is not really better than voting for the loud ones” and take that as “don’t even bother trying”, then you really may as well not bother trying, bcs nothing you were trying was ever going to help, and most of it will just strengthen the fascists.
Please point to the part of the meme / title that encouraged voting for anyone let alone anything else. This is just disenpowerment and pushes the narrative that it’s hopeless to try anything at all under the guise of “liberals bad” (which I don’t necessarily disagree with, but this is training people to give up entirely)
So you really did hear “voting for the polite fascists is not really better than voting for the loud ones” and take that as “don’t even bother trying”.
You, specifically, should absolutely give up and don’t bother trying.
Learn to read
So your all proposing we purge every other year. Thats your best idea
“Hey we need to build proletarian organizations to channel political energy in a non-dead end direction”
You:
Thats not what was said. Anymore strawmen
It’s a lot closer to what you said than this:
is to what anyone said.
Uhh its posted in this very thread.
https://lemmy.world/comment/26184002
Incredible bit to talk about “strawmanning” when you wrote this
Give your nose a honk and tell me what you hear
I read this… a lot
https://lemmy.world/comment/26184002
You’re literally sending me a link to the very same strawman
I will hunt you for sport
If you actually thought this the only time you would give this response is when voting was actually occurring.
Not voting for genocide does more good than any amount of volunteer work within the democratic party could ever do.
Capitalists must be so relieved that socialist and communist enclaves advocate disengaging from the electoral process, as if an afternoon or less spent voting, two if you vote in a primary, precludes one from otherwise protesting, organizing, or lifting a finger to resist.