Hey, I was raised on the premise that women want to be left alone and be independent which taught me that there is no environment or time where an approach would be appreciated. In return I assumed that in time and when ready, they would be the ones to initiate. Guess they really haven’t held up their end of the bargain. Or maybe I’m just a dumb fool for assuming that.
I may be getting downvoted for this but women do want to be approached, you just have to have 400 IQ and make it work.
As an autistic person I already fail because I cannot read their expressions, but some women will do things like touch your forearms or smile a lot at you. These signals like any other needs careful thinking because some women just like to play and flirt.
Women in 2026 do not want to feel like they’re being preyed on, having a welcoming but safe body language is an extremely difficult game.
I think our societal norms for dating will shift as no one likes the dating apps, who knows what’s next.
If you’re autistic and you fail at reading facial expressions, study them, academically. Like, find papers on this, read up on it.
Its more to do with microexpressions and minor details, and the underlying mechanisms of anatomy and how emotions affect the human body.
Think of the difference between a real smile, where the upper cheeks and lower/outer eyes shift upward along with the smile, vs a fake/forced smile that only involves the mouth.
Think about how a major difference between dogs and wolves is that dogs, as our human partners, literally evolved more eyebrow muscles to be able to communicate their emotional state to us more effectively.
Its not that you can’t read expressions, its that your model for doing so is wrong, its too simplistic.
You don’t need a 400 IQ, you just need patience and humility. Its not a one size fits all perfect rule set that works 100% the same on every different person, but we are all human, with fundamentally the same basic anatomy and physiological wiring.
I mean, absolutely fair, I’m just trying to say this is a thing you can study independently, and then when you’re ready, have as a kind of improved toolset for evaluating social interactions.
Though I also totally understand just being fucking traumatized by normies seemingly expecting you to read their minds and then getting angry at you for not being able to do so.
I’m autistic too, it has been a struggle, lol.
Not trying to pressure you into more immediate, complex social interactions, no, not if you are not comfortable with that.
I’m saying its a thing you can read up on, alone, independent study kind of thing. Gradually, eventually useful, when you are ready.
That’s a lie. You never know a result of approaching. She might be not in mood or crazy or friendly. You are not doing bad things by approaching. You are not r aping her. Just approach and if you don’t like her personality back off
Yeah some women will be kind and say something like “Sorry, I’m not interested, but thank you for asking!” But they’re certainly the exception rather than the rule.
More often it’ll be like “Ew, I can’t believe you would even ask that! What’s wrong with you?!?” And then she’ll go tell her friends about you and suddenly you end up on an app like tea where the rumor-mill’s game-of-telephone effect morphs it into increasingly grotesque distortions of what actually transpired.
When they say they want to dismantle gender roles, they only mean the gender roles that they perceive as disadvantageous for them. They still want men to perform the gender roles that are disadvantageous for men.
Taking the risk of making the first move is just one example. They don’t want that responsibility, they just want guys who aren’t attractive to them to stop trying to make a first move. Might as well rephrase it as “Just give up, loser. No one will ever love you” because that’s basically the sentiment that’s hiding behind “stop approaching women,” especially when it’s followed up with something like “why won’t men notice me?”
I’m saying that they often get excused with an explanation like “many women have XYZ experience which leads them to making LMNO inferences about men.” And if anyone has the audacity to say “well I’m a man, and I’m not like that,” then they’re flamed even harder. There’s even a hashtag for it. People will hit that dude with a bitingly sarcastic “#notallmen”
And yet when the roles are reversed and someone says “many men have XYZ experience which leads them to making LMNO inferences about women,” suddenly that’s painting with broad strokes and making uncouth generalizations. But nobody can make a sarcastic “#notallwomen” to justify it when faced with pushback.
So yeah, as long as the double-standard exists, then I’ll continue to deconstruct it. I can’t force the world to stop making harmful generalizations about men, but I can revoke the respect that I previously offered that went unreciprocated.
If that makes me a hypocrite, then what does that say about the people who created and reinforced the double-standard to begin with, even when I respectfully pushed back on it, and who will defend it to the bitter end no matter what I say or do?
I’m willing to call a truce whenever the rest of the world is ready, but not if I’m the only one standing in the negotiation field while shells continue to fall around me.
I’ve spoken to Women, and they’ve offered to bring this up on the next Womens meeting this Thursday. I doubt you’ve ever spoken to a woman, you probably don’t even know the secret handshake. Go back to Twitter.
You’re a dumbass. I read the opinions of women. I didn’t just pull this out of my ass. Clearly you don’t take the time to listen to the things they say and internalize it, because if you did you would have heard the message loud and clear: “women don’t want to be approached by men they don’t know”
If you’re pretending no woman has ever expressed that, then you haven’t spent much time listening to them. And if you hear that and conclude "I can write myself an exception and approach women because I’m me, then you’re the problem; not the guys who say “Heard you loud and clear; I will adjust my expectations and learn to be content with single life.”
You do have a point, but you’ve applied it to every aspect of all women and you sound short sighted. That was the theme of my previous post and you missed it. You’ve read what some women want you to read, and have reacted in a way that is advantageous to them and their goals. This does not extend to all women, like at all - it’s not even possible ( you can’t even explain how it works ). I know plenty of women that like to be approached, I know plenty that don’t. People are always more interesting and diverse than what your ideologies can explain. You’ve put both feet in a bear trap and jumped my friend. You’re so wrapped up in assumptions you’ve missed the forest for the trees, probably for someone else’s gain. Whatever twitter handles you follow, or Manophere youtubers you listen to, it’s not constructive to your individual experience in anyway that related to women. I’m sorry, it’s just not. That means it’s stupid, and you should try something else.
Okay, I’ll admit it was an overly broad generalization, and I shouldn’t have called you a dumbass. So I’m sorry for that. I was a bit heated because the other commenter had me riled up.
But I’ll start this by saying I don’t follow any fucking twitter handles or manosphere youtubers. I’m chagrined that you would even assume that about me. You have me mispegged, and that’s causing you to view everything I say through a lens where you’re already making assumptions about the intent.
I’ve listened to the opinions of many women. I’ve read what they say online and in women’s support spaces. Yes, that doesn’t mean it represents the opinion of every woman, but to discount it entirely just because it can’t be framed as an absolute would be the wrong approach.
The best conclusion one can draw is, that of the women who have expressed their opinions in formats that I have access to, the majority of them seem to agree on the “man versus bear” narrative. And if I, upon learning that, don’t conclude “so I shouldn’t approach women then,” then I’d be in the wrong.
Even if there’s a smaller percentage who think “But I want to be approached,” the reality is, I can’t read their mind, and I’m not going to guess. There’s no way for me to spot “Oh this woman wants to be approached” from visual cues alone. So I’m going to err on the side of caution and treat every woman like she wants to be left alone.
Anything else and I’d be in the wrong. So if you really want to claim I’m being toxic and misogynist by literally going out of my way and changing my behavior based on what I’ve learned in order to make sure women feel more comfortable in public, then this is a really topsy turvy world and there would be no point in trying to comprehend something so self-contradictory.
A lot of these are just that, Narratives. No woman would jump into the arms of the bear, literally. Focusing on the details of wanting to be approached or not, it’s playing to the whims of content creators and rage baiters. People are people. If you see an attractive woman, make a move, and move on. So much of this just melts away under scrutiny. It’s only supposed to distract and serve the ad loops we’re all trapped in, not us. It’s not constructive, leave it behind.
But I don’t want to make women feel uncomfortable. That’s the core of the issue. If approaching them or treating them as a potential dating partner even might do that, then I won’t do it. That’s the sum of what I’m trying to say.
Bruh we’re all uncomfortable. Pretty much most of the time. Don’t rationalize or overthink it. You can’t plan for when you’ll make someone uncomfortable at the best of times.
Yes, Statement 1 does logically follow from Statement 2.
Statement 2 is broad and unqualified, universal.
If you accept that as true, Statement 1 definitely does logically follow from it.
If I tell you, “I want to be left alone, and be independent”, then the inescapable conclusion is that either I will initiate interaction with you, or if you initiate, you are violating my wishes.
Being independent means that one is the acting agent, not the one being acted upon, it means being the initiator or instigator, being proactive instead of reactive.
If you want to say that Statement 2 actually is qualified, has actual specific conditions where ‘leave me alone and let me be independent’ does not apply, well, then we would need those conditions to be clearly stated.
The entire problem is that they are not clearly stated, and that every single individual has different specific conditions, unique to them, which must be communicated before they can be understood.
I’m not 18 anymore. All, and I mean all friends and friends of friends are either married, longterm or with children. Do you know what it’s like to be the only one with any realationships past your 30s? Not just “single”, “no relationships”. People look at you differently, people talk to you differently, people treat you differently. Especially your inner circle of friends where something like that is common knowledge. At least with strangers you can play on the novelty of the conversation and pretend your life isn’t in shambles before they start to catch on.
Besides depression already did it’s thing and I haven’t had contact with any of my friends for over a year. So I guess its safe to say, no more birthday invites for me…
I think root comment is simply saying that they didn’t want to “bother” women.
But reality is that when initiating any kind of social contact, you have to risk being a “bother”. Over time you learn to judge the risk better, but there’s always a risk. If you want to form relationships you just have to take the chance and go ahead anyways. Even if you’re afraid of being a creep, or being annoying, or bothering them. You have to use your best judgement and initiate when you feel it’s ok.
So you were taught wrong, and/or made incorrect assumptions, and that’s the woman’s fault she didn’t live up to the bargain you invented? Do you really think that women who don’t “initiate” are breaking some kind of pact? Do you think being decent and non-creepy entitles you to attention from women? Are you respectful because they deserve respect or because it’s your “end of the bargain”?
You know that common culture dictates that the man be the aggressive one? If you think that’s not fair, I agree, but flipping the script can’t be fair either.
You may want to consider that your difficulty with women is not because you’re overly respectful.
Nope I don’t think any of those things. I’m just sad that there was nobody in my life to teach be that you shouldn’t base your happiness on the expectations you put on others.
I wish I would have realised that before reaching an age where it would be embarrassing to try to become a functioning person.
It is pretty funny to accuse a person of believing a bunch of things they do not believe, where one of those bad things they are said to believe is that they invent things and make incorrect assumptions.
You’ve managed to project projection, you did a projection inception.
Like, your instincts are terrible, but the unintentional comedy is grade A!
Hey, I was raised on the premise that women want to be left alone and be independent which taught me that there is no environment or time where an approach would be appreciated. In return I assumed that in time and when ready, they would be the ones to initiate. Guess they really haven’t held up their end of the bargain. Or maybe I’m just a dumb fool for assuming that.
I may be getting downvoted for this but women do want to be approached, you just have to have 400 IQ and make it work.
As an autistic person I already fail because I cannot read their expressions, but some women will do things like touch your forearms or smile a lot at you. These signals like any other needs careful thinking because some women just like to play and flirt.
Women in 2026 do not want to feel like they’re being preyed on, having a welcoming but safe body language is an extremely difficult game.
I think our societal norms for dating will shift as no one likes the dating apps, who knows what’s next.
If you’re autistic and you fail at reading facial expressions, study them, academically. Like, find papers on this, read up on it.
Its more to do with microexpressions and minor details, and the underlying mechanisms of anatomy and how emotions affect the human body.
Think of the difference between a real smile, where the upper cheeks and lower/outer eyes shift upward along with the smile, vs a fake/forced smile that only involves the mouth.
Think about how a major difference between dogs and wolves is that dogs, as our human partners, literally evolved more eyebrow muscles to be able to communicate their emotional state to us more effectively.
Its not that you can’t read expressions, its that your model for doing so is wrong, its too simplistic.
You don’t need a 400 IQ, you just need patience and humility. Its not a one size fits all perfect rule set that works 100% the same on every different person, but we are all human, with fundamentally the same basic anatomy and physiological wiring.
Nah, I’m full on defensive and guarded until very clear words are said
I mean, absolutely fair, I’m just trying to say this is a thing you can study independently, and then when you’re ready, have as a kind of improved toolset for evaluating social interactions.
Though I also totally understand just being fucking traumatized by normies seemingly expecting you to read their minds and then getting angry at you for not being able to do so.
I’m autistic too, it has been a struggle, lol.
Not trying to pressure you into more immediate, complex social interactions, no, not if you are not comfortable with that.
I’m saying its a thing you can read up on, alone, independent study kind of thing. Gradually, eventually useful, when you are ready.
That’s a lie. You never know a result of approaching. She might be not in mood or crazy or friendly. You are not doing bad things by approaching. You are not r aping her. Just approach and if you don’t like her personality back off
I thing you and I have vastly different experiences with rejection.
Yeah some women will be kind and say something like “Sorry, I’m not interested, but thank you for asking!” But they’re certainly the exception rather than the rule.
More often it’ll be like “Ew, I can’t believe you would even ask that! What’s wrong with you?!?” And then she’ll go tell her friends about you and suddenly you end up on an app like tea where the rumor-mill’s game-of-telephone effect morphs it into increasingly grotesque distortions of what actually transpired.
When they say they want to dismantle gender roles, they only mean the gender roles that they perceive as disadvantageous for them. They still want men to perform the gender roles that are disadvantageous for men.
Taking the risk of making the first move is just one example. They don’t want that responsibility, they just want guys who aren’t attractive to them to stop trying to make a first move. Might as well rephrase it as “Just give up, loser. No one will ever love you” because that’s basically the sentiment that’s hiding behind “stop approaching women,” especially when it’s followed up with something like “why won’t men notice me?”
Those are some broad brush strokes.
You mean like the broad brush strokes that men get painted with on a daily basis? 🤯
So you’re saying those are true, and not absolute BS?
I’m saying that they often get excused with an explanation like “many women have XYZ experience which leads them to making LMNO inferences about men.” And if anyone has the audacity to say “well I’m a man, and I’m not like that,” then they’re flamed even harder. There’s even a hashtag for it. People will hit that dude with a bitingly sarcastic “#notallmen”
And yet when the roles are reversed and someone says “many men have XYZ experience which leads them to making LMNO inferences about women,” suddenly that’s painting with broad strokes and making uncouth generalizations. But nobody can make a sarcastic “#notallwomen” to justify it when faced with pushback.
So yeah, as long as the double-standard exists, then I’ll continue to deconstruct it. I can’t force the world to stop making harmful generalizations about men, but I can revoke the respect that I previously offered that went unreciprocated.
If that makes me a hypocrite, then what does that say about the people who created and reinforced the double-standard to begin with, even when I respectfully pushed back on it, and who will defend it to the bitter end no matter what I say or do?
I’m willing to call a truce whenever the rest of the world is ready, but not if I’m the only one standing in the negotiation field while shells continue to fall around me.
I’ve spoken to Women, and they’ve offered to bring this up on the next Womens meeting this Thursday. I doubt you’ve ever spoken to a woman, you probably don’t even know the secret handshake. Go back to Twitter.
You’re a dumbass. I read the opinions of women. I didn’t just pull this out of my ass. Clearly you don’t take the time to listen to the things they say and internalize it, because if you did you would have heard the message loud and clear: “women don’t want to be approached by men they don’t know”If you’re pretending no woman has ever expressed that, then you haven’t spent much time listening to them. And if you hear that and conclude "I can write myself an exception and approach women because I’m me, then you’re the problem; not the guys who say “Heard you loud and clear; I will adjust my expectations and learn to be content with single life.”
[Edit: it was a bit uncalled for]
You do have a point, but you’ve applied it to every aspect of all women and you sound short sighted. That was the theme of my previous post and you missed it. You’ve read what some women want you to read, and have reacted in a way that is advantageous to them and their goals. This does not extend to all women, like at all - it’s not even possible ( you can’t even explain how it works ). I know plenty of women that like to be approached, I know plenty that don’t. People are always more interesting and diverse than what your ideologies can explain. You’ve put both feet in a bear trap and jumped my friend. You’re so wrapped up in assumptions you’ve missed the forest for the trees, probably for someone else’s gain. Whatever twitter handles you follow, or Manophere youtubers you listen to, it’s not constructive to your individual experience in anyway that related to women. I’m sorry, it’s just not. That means it’s stupid, and you should try something else.
Okay, I’ll admit it was an overly broad generalization, and I shouldn’t have called you a dumbass. So I’m sorry for that. I was a bit heated because the other commenter had me riled up.
But I’ll start this by saying I don’t follow any fucking twitter handles or manosphere youtubers. I’m chagrined that you would even assume that about me. You have me mispegged, and that’s causing you to view everything I say through a lens where you’re already making assumptions about the intent.
I’ve listened to the opinions of many women. I’ve read what they say online and in women’s support spaces. Yes, that doesn’t mean it represents the opinion of every woman, but to discount it entirely just because it can’t be framed as an absolute would be the wrong approach.
The best conclusion one can draw is, that of the women who have expressed their opinions in formats that I have access to, the majority of them seem to agree on the “man versus bear” narrative. And if I, upon learning that, don’t conclude “so I shouldn’t approach women then,” then I’d be in the wrong.
Even if there’s a smaller percentage who think “But I want to be approached,” the reality is, I can’t read their mind, and I’m not going to guess. There’s no way for me to spot “Oh this woman wants to be approached” from visual cues alone. So I’m going to err on the side of caution and treat every woman like she wants to be left alone.
Anything else and I’d be in the wrong. So if you really want to claim I’m being toxic and misogynist by literally going out of my way and changing my behavior based on what I’ve learned in order to make sure women feel more comfortable in public, then this is a really topsy turvy world and there would be no point in trying to comprehend something so self-contradictory.
A lot of these are just that, Narratives. No woman would jump into the arms of the bear, literally. Focusing on the details of wanting to be approached or not, it’s playing to the whims of content creators and rage baiters. People are people. If you see an attractive woman, make a move, and move on. So much of this just melts away under scrutiny. It’s only supposed to distract and serve the ad loops we’re all trapped in, not us. It’s not constructive, leave it behind.
But I don’t want to make women feel uncomfortable. That’s the core of the issue. If approaching them or treating them as a potential dating partner even might do that, then I won’t do it. That’s the sum of what I’m trying to say.
Bruh we’re all uncomfortable. Pretty much most of the time. Don’t rationalize or overthink it. You can’t plan for when you’ll make someone uncomfortable at the best of times.
Doesn’t really follow from
There’s a lot of spaces between “don’t hit on the waitress” and “chat with friends of friends at a birthday party”
Of course, you do have to enter the world to be perceived by the world.
… what?
Yes, Statement 1 does logically follow from Statement 2.
Statement 2 is broad and unqualified, universal.
If you accept that as true, Statement 1 definitely does logically follow from it.
If I tell you, “I want to be left alone, and be independent”, then the inescapable conclusion is that either I will initiate interaction with you, or if you initiate, you are violating my wishes.
Being independent means that one is the acting agent, not the one being acted upon, it means being the initiator or instigator, being proactive instead of reactive.
If you want to say that Statement 2 actually is qualified, has actual specific conditions where ‘leave me alone and let me be independent’ does not apply, well, then we would need those conditions to be clearly stated.
The entire problem is that they are not clearly stated, and that every single individual has different specific conditions, unique to them, which must be communicated before they can be understood.
Hey everyone, look at this user! He says he gets invited to birthday parties
I’m not 18 anymore. All, and I mean all friends and friends of friends are either married, longterm or with children. Do you know what it’s like to be the only one with any realationships past your 30s? Not just “single”, “no relationships”. People look at you differently, people talk to you differently, people treat you differently. Especially your inner circle of friends where something like that is common knowledge. At least with strangers you can play on the novelty of the conversation and pretend your life isn’t in shambles before they start to catch on.
Besides depression already did it’s thing and I haven’t had contact with any of my friends for over a year. So I guess its safe to say, no more birthday invites for me…
I think root comment is simply saying that they didn’t want to “bother” women.
But reality is that when initiating any kind of social contact, you have to risk being a “bother”. Over time you learn to judge the risk better, but there’s always a risk. If you want to form relationships you just have to take the chance and go ahead anyways. Even if you’re afraid of being a creep, or being annoying, or bothering them. You have to use your best judgement and initiate when you feel it’s ok.
Right. Some people seem to never really develop that judgement.
Talk about it, communication is everything
So you were taught wrong, and/or made incorrect assumptions, and that’s the woman’s fault she didn’t live up to the bargain you invented? Do you really think that women who don’t “initiate” are breaking some kind of pact? Do you think being decent and non-creepy entitles you to attention from women? Are you respectful because they deserve respect or because it’s your “end of the bargain”?
You know that common culture dictates that the man be the aggressive one? If you think that’s not fair, I agree, but flipping the script can’t be fair either.
You may want to consider that your difficulty with women is not because you’re overly respectful.
Nope I don’t think any of those things. I’m just sad that there was nobody in my life to teach be that you shouldn’t base your happiness on the expectations you put on others.
I wish I would have realised that before reaching an age where it would be embarrassing to try to become a functioning person.
It is pretty funny to accuse a person of believing a bunch of things they do not believe, where one of those bad things they are said to believe is that they invent things and make incorrect assumptions.
You’ve managed to project projection, you did a projection inception.
Like, your instincts are terrible, but the unintentional comedy is grade A!