JERUSALEM (AP) — The head of surgery at Gaza’s largest and most advanced hospital held up his phone Saturday to the hammering of gunfire and artillery shelling. “Listen,” said Dr. Marwan Abu Sada as fighting raged around Shifa Hospital.

  • ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works
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    1 year ago

    erase the current populace entirely

    Do you realize that the population of Gaza grows by over 50,000 people every year? Even if we accept the casualty figures provided by Hamas (and I don’t) then unless this war goes on at its current intensity for another four months (which it won’t) the population of Gaza will actually increase rather than decrease in the one-year period that includes the war.

    The idea that the war in Gaza is “[erasing] the current populace entirely” is disconnected from reality.

    • nammi@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Wow.

      Are you literally saying it’s not a genocide because the population is growing faster than the IDF is killing?

      I don’t know what happened to your brain, nor your heart, but I am sad whatever happened to you, happened.

      • PersnickityPenguin@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        You did use the term “erase.”. What about all the Palestinians living inside Israel.

        Obviously it sucks that people are dying, but hamas started the war FFS. They 100% knew it would cause huge civilian losses.

        • nammi@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          If you think Hamas «started» anything, read up on the history. It’s a 75 year long illegal occupation.

        • Count042@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          Israel stated the war 17 years ago, minimum.

          Blockades are acts of war.

          This argument is the adult equivalent of grabbing someone’s hand and punching them in the face with it while saying “stop hitting yourself”

          You should be embarrassed for even making this argument.

          • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social
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            1 year ago

            Israel stated the war 17 years ago, minimum.

            *18. The blockade started in late 2005. Just clarifying because Israel likes to claim that the blockade started in response to the scary Hamas government launching rocket attacks.

      • ArbitraryValue@sh.itjust.works
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        1 year ago

        Civilian casualties aren’t the same thing as genocide.

        genocide: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

        When a country with access to the full destructive power of a modern-day military (including nuclear weapons) fights a war in such a manner that at the end of the war there will be more enemy civilians than there were before the war, it is entirely unreasonable to claim that genocide or any attempt to commit genocide is taking place. You might as well call it cannibalism or pedophilia - those are also really bad things that Israel isn’t actually doing.

        • nammi@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Keep telling yourself whatever you need to support your own narratives. I just wanna let you know that I think you are a cold-hearted person, and I hope that you, your family, or your people will never be thought of, as you are thinking and/or talking of the Palestinians right here.

          They are deliberately bombing hospitals, schools and people fleeing. If you cannot open your eyes to see this, but rather argue about the technicalities of semantics to feel better, I wish you good luck in life.

        • Count042@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          Intentionally withholding food and water when you control all ingress is a way of extirpating a population without bombing and shooting them.

          But so is dropping more explosive power than the two atomic bombs used in Japan into an area the size of Manhattan in a month.

        • be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          That’s a false dichotomy. They are killing them as fast as they think the international community will tolerate. They won’t kill them fast enough to provoke any major entity into opposing them, they will just stay firmly in the “everyone will wag their fingers at us and argue about whether it’s right” zone, which is where they sit currently.

          • thatsage@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            And what will make you believe genocide isn’t the end goal? The refugees leaving through Egypt don’t?

            • be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              The refugees leaving through Egypt don’t?

              How could they? Reiterating my prior point:

              They are killing them as fast as they think the international community will tolerate. They won’t kill them fast enough to provoke any major entity into opposing them, they will just stay firmly in the “everyone will wag their fingers at us and argue about whether it’s right” zone, which is where they sit currently.

              So the fact that this leaves open the possibility that some people get to flee their homes in terror, knowing that their friends and loved ones who refuse to be chased out of their homes by Israel are likely to be killed by the IDF, is one of the things that you feel might convince me that Israel doesn’t have genocidal intent?

              And what will make you believe genocide isn’t the end goal?

              Clearly nothing that you’re going to accept.

              • thatsage@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                But that’s impossible to argue. You can claim for any ratio that it’s a silent genocide as long as even a single citizen is killed. And we know a war without civilian casualties - even forgetting the situation of Hamas putting civilians forward as shields and even killing some themselves. Where do you draw the line?

                Instead of examining the facts, you’re opting for an easy cop-out that requires no proof and cannot be disproved.

        • Count042@lemmy.ml
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          1 year ago

          Yes.

          Nothing is more corrosive to an armies fighting capabilities then an occupation.

    • SLaSZT@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      Sorry, what? Newborn babies can’t shoot a gun and can’t take care of themselves if their homes are bombed and their parents die. Not to mention that half of Gaza is already under 18 and probably won’t be having babies any time soon, given that hospitals are being targeted. What the fuck is wrong with you?

    • be_excellent_to_each_other@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      Even if we accept the casualty figures provided by Hamas (and I don’t)

      I don’t know why you wouldn’t, unless your justification is just your own bigotry.

      One snippet out of a lengthy article.

      Many experts consider figures provided by the ministry reliable, given its access, sources and accuracy in past statements.

      “Everyone uses the figures from the Gaza Health Ministry because those are generally proven to be reliable,” said Omar Shakir, Israel and Palestine director at Human Rights Watch. “In the times in which we have done our own verification of numbers for particular strikes, I’m not aware of any time which there’s been some major discrepancy.”

      Shakir said Human Rights Watch would not use figures provided by parties with “a propensity to misrepresent information.”

      Why news outlets and the U.N. rely on Gaza’s Health Ministry for death tolls

      And another:

      Throughout four wars and numerous bloody skirmishes between Israel and Hamas, U.N. agencies have cited the Health Ministry’s death tolls in regular reports. The International Committee of the Red Cross and Palestinian Red Crescent also use the numbers.

      In the aftermath of war, the U.N. humanitarian office has published final death tolls based on its own research into medical records.

      In all cases the U.N.’s counts have largely been consistent with the Gaza Health Ministry’s, with small discrepancies.

      — 2008 war: The ministry reported 1,440 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 1,385.

      — 2014 war: The ministry reported 2,310 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 2,251.

      — 2021 war: The ministry reported 260 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 256.

      What is Gaza’s Ministry of Health and how does it calculate the war’s death toll?

    • nautilus@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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      1 year ago

      I can’t imagine ever having such a cynical and apathetic worldview. All of this death is acceptable to you because more children will be born? Because they’ll be replaced?

      Set a reminder on your calendar for March, and we’ll take a look at the news at that point. I have a sneaking suspicion that you may be surprised. While you’re at it set a reminder to get some therapy too, christ

    • Phanatik@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      You do realise that the birth rates will slow down during the conflict, right? Who’s going to be having a baby when the nearest hospital is being shelled? Assuming of course that both parents even survive.

      That 50,000 per year won’t hold for this duration and I won’t be surprised if it shrinks to below 1,000 by the time Israel is finished.