I’m torn on this topic because on the one hand there’s enough evidence for the harm it does, but one thing these finger wagging experts seem to ignore is that if you keep kids isolated from the tools then you’re leaving them behind.
I was probably an Internet addict as a kid with dial up and a CRT monitor, but I don’t regret it given how well it prepared me for the tech-dominated present.
I’m inclined to agree. I was definitely an internet addict when I was a teenager, but now as a 40 year old, I’m persistently depressed by how many people my age simply cannot use more than the absolute basics of their phone and computer. Like sure, they can send a text and write in a Word document, but become completely paralysed by anything more complicated than that because they’re so terrified they’ll break something if they click on the wrong button. Those of us that are used to technology have no fear of pressing buttons to find out what they do.
I feel like there ought to be a sensible middle ground somewhere, where kids can be taught how to use the tools they’ll be relying on as adults, without exposing them to all the downsides of the internet and exploitative apps.
Yeah, same for me. Now that I’m in the position of raising a kid, I’m not sure how to tackle this.
Give them a raspberry pi with a tiny screen and have them install Linux :)
Yeah, I’m thinking something along these lines. Offline first.
I gave my kids phones that have no data plan and are old enough that a lot of stuff just doesn’t work.
They can text and call and use a web browser, but no snapchat, Facebook, Instagram, Telegram or Tiktok. Seems to work well.
God I hate “screen time” discourse. Not all activity that happens on a screen is of equivalent value.
Tootally. 95% of smartphone screen time is entertainment or distractions of some form. Not something we (or kids) need to carry around at all times.
Dial-up and a CRT implies you had to learn a little bit about computers in order to use them for entertainment. A baby can use a modern smartphone. It’s not “preparing” them for anything beides being unable to self-pacify without consumption.
I will say one thing: my mother didn’t let us have a TV or by extension a nintendo back in the 80s.
Now, as a 41 year old man, I play video games almost every day.
I think it’s connected. If I don’t play video games, I feel like I’m not in control of my life. Having a video game system that I’m allowed to interact with is a part of my sense of accomplishment in the world.
I think they’re related. I don’t blame her at all (not because I don’t think there’s a causal link, but because I think blame is useless).
You make a very good point. It’s super important for kids to be on the same page as their peers.
Ideally no kids would have these things. Kids could bond with each other over the cruelty of the adults depriving them of tech, while growing up with healthy brains.
I think (as with everything) not doing any of the extremes is the way to go.
omg another rufus!
Nice. Hi! And you seem interested in some of the same stuff. selfhosted, linux, random stuff… not that that’s extraordinary here on Lemmy. But maybe you’re me from the future… Or I’m your evil twin with a mustache…
I don’t have a mustache, so maybe?
What, you completely ignore the possibility you’re talking to you in another reality?
As someone who has built a career in building and maintaining digital services, a lot of what Carmen talks about rings very true to me, especially this part:
“The platforms make money based on the time we spend on them, and they don’t hesitate to use unethical, addictive resources, so how are you going to ask a 10-year-old or a 13-year-old to stop, if it’s even hard for us adults?”
I’ve struggled with social media and technology addiction myself, so in my mind, allowing a child a smartphone is akin to teaching them how to smoke - that is how toxic and generally “bad-for-your-health” modern internet is, I think.
At the same time, I am not (yet) a parent, so I really don’t know how am I going to be making such a decision when the time comes.
The modern internet is weird. It’s a space where you can link up a Skinner machine feeding you pure hate and vitriol directly to your brain, but it’s also a space where you can teach yourself literally anything.
I feel like the trick is using it more for the latter and less for the former. Even using Beehaw too much, it quickly becomes obvious that I need to shift my focus. Endless streams of news and opinion aren’t, like, great.
Back in 2011 I already felt that there should be some sort of easy-to-follow hygiene to maintain around mass media, especially internet. You know, like we hide our coughs and sneezes, maintain healthy distance around people, wash our hands, use slippers in communal pools. I should probably look up if someone smarter has already done the work.
I think there are ways to impose child safety locks, as it were, on a phone’s access to the internet? Like a curfew or “max hours in a day” limit. I feel like that would make more sense than not giving a kid a phone.
And there are also tricks one can apply to circunvent some of that attention-grabby design, like putting the phone in grayscale mode.
Also, unlike cigarettes, smartphones serve many purposes, and 99.999% of people (in countries where they are ubiquitous) will need to own one at some point. I think it may be better to actively teach a child how to handle the information-overload, attention grabbing tricks, misinformation, and so on of the internet, rather than leaving them to just figure it out for themselves later on.
My concerns with denying children a smartphone altogether include:
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Phones are an essential safety device, and smartphones are better at this than dumb phones because of things like GPS and maps navigation (especially for kids who get lost easily), clear emergency alerts (e.g. “expect a tsubami in 3 minutes”, or “there is an active shooter currently around the grocery store at x and y street”), the ability to store easily accessible information for first responders in the phone (which can sometimes also be auto-shared when you make a 911 call), and the ability to easily and silently text 911 if they find themselves in a situation where calling is dangerous.
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Phones and social media are now an integral part of most kids’ social lives. If a kid doesn’t have a smartphone and can’t join in on real time group chats, with the ability to see the things their peers share in that chat, or if they don’t have video chat access, they’ll be cut off from a lot of other kids and their social life will suffer for it.
And access to social media is especially important for kids who need to find support they can’t find easily irl, like for queer or neurodivergent kids who benefit from talking to others like them on the internet - even if they’re lucky and their parents are supportive, it’s not the same as finding a peer support group. For similar reasons, access to digital library collections can be a big deal. Granted, some of this would be covered if they have access to the internet on a laptop or desktop, but at that point they’d have internet access anyway so they might as well have the phone too.
- Phones are more and more often required for basic utilitarian access, too. Sometimes taking the city bus requires a phone because you can’t pay cash anymore. Sometimes the laundry machine doesn’t take coins, only app or internet payment. Sometimes the menu at a restaurant is just a QR code that tells you to look at their website. It sucks but it’s only getting more this way.
I’m not advocating for giving smartphones to literal toddlers, but beyond a certain (fairly low) age I think at this point the risks of giving a kid a smartphone are outweighed by the risks of them not having one.
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So, what’s the correct age? I suppose withdrawing smartphones until the age of 18 works as well as no sex until marriage or no alcohol until 21. I mean at some age you need to slowly learn to grow up and handle the adult world. Including nasty things like addicting stuff. You’re not going to stop getting older.
I am not in agreement with the notion that we should not give children smartphones. I am of the opinion that there comes a time, usually during early adolescence, that a smartphone becomes a safety feature of parenting — namely, the tools it provides for location tracking, and very quick two-way communication. The moment the child is starting to become more autonomous and is going to events with friends, staying at their friends’ houses for sleepovers, going on multi-day field trips, and so forth, is the moment a smartphone becomes an increasingly necessary safety measure.
The first step in dealing with addiction is understanding it and identifying it. The problem is that parents often don’t speak to their children about the dangers, and what it could mean, with concrete examples. And this can be expanded as a general parenting issue across more than just addiction. Open and honest communication is how kids can learn without always resorting to the fuck-around-and-find-out method.
I don’t really have a formed opinion on this subject. (Though I have some experience with certain things where holding back in childhood has lead to potentially much bigger addictions)
But I can tell you that my uncle bought smartwatches to his children. The watches are only allowed to call family members & have GPS tracking on them, have no games, no Youtube no distractions. They are exactly what you are describing, a safety feature. (though the kids regularly dualwear them to cover for each other, so … :D )
I’m not really in favor of the GPS tracking thing. It feels to protective and a bit overbearing to me.
I mean I wouldn’t think of location tracking my significant other and I would hate it if someone was location tracking me. So why do that to your children?
Depends on the person. Some couples location track each other with consent, I would be fine with that too.
As for children I think it’s alright if it’s not used as a leash to question why they aren’t home yet studying and such. Helicopter parents can abuse this causing further harm, but for normal parents it shouldn’t be too bad, or I don’t know.
Point taken. I agree that specific product would solve the safety feature aspect while avoiding the addiction possibility. I suppose it then comes down to when a parent feels their child is ready and cognizant of the dangers of addiction.
parent feels their child is ready and cognizant of the dangers of addiction.
Yes, I think so. In 5-10 years science will have caught up & parents could possibly be able to make more informed decisions in this regard & until then it’s basically up to luck.
The first step in dealing with addiction is understanding it and identifying it. The problem is that parents often don’t speak to their children about the dangers, and what it could mean, with concrete examples.
The issue of addiction to technology is deeply rooted in the way our brains are structured. This is particularly concerning for children and teenagers, as their brains are not fully developed until around the age of 21. Simply having conversations about the dangers of addiction is not a sufficient solution, especially considering that many adults are also addicted to technology. After all, here we are, possibly spending time online arguing with strangers instead of engaging in more productive activities.
To address this issue, it’s crucial to move away from a black-and-white mindset. Extremes are rarely beneficial. It may be necessary for children to have smartphones for safety and communication purposes, but these devices should come with certain restrictions. For instance, limiting the ability of children to install any app they want or restricting excessive screen time could be effective measures. By implementing these controlled measures, we can provide the necessary safety net while also safeguarding the mental and emotional well-being of younger users.
However, real-world actions should be informed by scientific evidence. Any approach we adopt needs to be backed by data (and not opinions) proving its effectiveness in achieving the desired outcomes.
After all, here we are, possibly spending time online arguing with strangers instead of engaging in more productive activities.
This feels like a false equivalency. Just because I decided to engage in this post has no bearing on any addiction patterns of mine or the validity of such an activity.
but these devices should come with certain restrictions. For instance, limiting the ability of children to install any app they want or restricting excessive screen time could be effective measures. By implementing these controlled measures, we can provide the necessary safety net while also safeguarding the mental and emotional well-being of younger users.
They do. I used exactly those features on my child’s. If parents choose not to employ them and become educated on the capabilities of the devices, not much else can be done. But this is a broad issue that extends well beyond smartphones.
However, real-world actions should be informed by scientific evidence. Any approach we adopt needs to be backed by data (and not opinions) proving its effectiveness in achieving the desired outcomes.
I agree completely. But ultimately the parents have to know what they are doing and how their knowledge and actions will affect their children. It seems just as disingenuous to blanket smartphones as the problem when it really boils down to parents, education, and understanding the maturity level of their own child.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Another argument to give your tween a smartphone is that they need to learn how to use it, to develop a healthy relationship with it, to understand the pros/cons, to understand how to use it effectively. Abstinence will just make them envious and less likely to think through the consequences.
What about a system where the entire session is recorded in video format for the parent to review later?
How many parents do you imagine are going to actually do this? Free time is a resource most parents rarely have. It’s the reason a smartphone ends up in a child’s hands: to keep them occupied.
Doesn’t seem like it would solve the core problem of internet scrolling being bad for the brain.
