I WFH, every year one of the goals that the rest of the team decides is that it’s “so great” to see each other in person. The past few years haven’t worked out but one did. I spent hours in a couple of airports, the huge expense for the company, I spent days away from my family, and for what? So you could look me in my same face you would see if we turned cameras on every once in a while? My husband says I’m being weird, but I legitimately want to know, what is the benefit? I hate being there and have to play nice so you can…look me even closer in the face?
I’m actually shocked to find how many people agree with the OPs sentiment, but maybe there’s something about the demographics of who’s using a FOSS Reddit alternative or something. I’m not saying everyone is wrong or has something wrong with them or whatever, but I entirely agree with people finding this valuable, so maybe I can answer the OPs question here.
I’ve been working remotely long since before the pandemic. I’ve worked remotely for multiple companies and in different environments. I am extremely introverted and arguably anti social. I tend to want to hang out with many of my friends online over in person. But that doesn’t mean I think there’s no advantage at all. To be honest, when I first started remote work, I thought the in person thing was total bullshit. After a few meetings my opinions drastically changed.
I’ve pushed (with other employees, of course) to get remote employees flown in at least a few times a year at multiple companies. There are vastly different social dynamics in person than over video. Honestly, I don’t understand how people feel otherwise, especially if they’ve experienced it. I’ve worked with many remote employees over the years and asked about this, and most people have agreed with me. Many of these people are also introverted.
I think one of the big things here is people harping on the “face” thing. Humans communicate in large part through body language - it’s not just faces. There’s also a lot of communication in microexpressions that aren’t always captured by compressed, badly lit video. So much of communication just isn’t captured in video.
Secondly, in my experience, online meetings are extremely transactional. You meet at the scheduled time, you talk about the thing, then you close the meeting and move on. In person, people slowly mosy over to meetings. And after the meeting ends, they tend to hang around a bit and chat. When you’re working in an office, you tend to grab lunch with people. Or bump into them by the kitchen. There’s a TON more socializing happening in person where you actually bump into other people and talk them as people and not just cogs in the machine to get your work done.
I find in person interactions drastically change my relationships with people. Some people come off entirely different online and it’s not until meeting them in person that I really feel like I know them. And then I understand their issues and blockers or miscommunications better and feel more understanding of their experiences.
Maybe things are different if you work jobs with less interdepencies or are more solo. I’ve always worked jobs that take a lot of cooperation between multiple different people in different roles. And those relationships are just way more functional with people I’ve met and have a real relationship with. And that comes from things that just don’t happen online.
Im honestly really curious how anyone could feel differently. The other comments just seem mad at being required to and stating the same stuff happens online, but it just doesn’t. I do wonder if maybe it has to do with being younger and entering the workplace more online or something. But I’ve worked with hundreds of remote employees and never heard a single one say the in person stuff to be useless. And I’ve heard many say exactly the opposite.
I think you’re missing the point a wee bit. No one (introverted or otherwise) is arguing against in-person socialising in general. They are arguing against forced in-person socialising with co-workers.
online meetings are extremely transactional
Exactly. You know what else is transactional? Jobs. The employer and employee exchange work for currency. Employees don’t owe their employer any meaningful relationships with their co-workers. I’m sure that means less efficient business. I also don’t give a flying fuck.
I felt like this a couple of years ago, then I went and changed both job and career. Suddenly I find myself actually enjoying what I do, as well as my colleagues.
A job is definitely transactional, but seeing as most of us spend 8h a day on them. I’d urge ya’ll to - if possible - try and find one where you can find some pride and value in what you do, other than the paycheck you receive.
It has improved all parts of my life in all honesty.
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Sure. But regardless, I used to work as a teacher. 15 weeks of vacation yearly, great pay (for Sweden at least). Worked about 32h every week.
I’m much happier today with much less vacation, longer hours and a bit worse pay (though it’ll get much better with time). Because I actually like my job. And I get to work on skills that I have use for in my free time as well.
It does not have to be all about getting paid as much and working as little as possible. Finding a good employer and a career you like is also an option.
You’re correct in that it’s a higher quality of getting to know people in person.
However, I don’t want to get to know anyone at my work because I hate the place and I can’t create a honest relationship with my coworkers because of that, if I’d be honest I’d likely be reported or whatever.
I want to spend more time with people I do care about, not more time with people I don’t care at all about.
Why wouldn’t you be able to create relationships with your colleagues just because you hate your workplace? The worst places I’ve worked at, have had the absolute strongest relationships between the people working there. Because it’s basically been a necessity to survive the workday.
Your colleagues might hate it as much as you do. That can be something to find comfort in. And you’ll obviously never care about someone you don’t know. Perhaps you might actually start caring about a colleague or two, if you do get to know them.
I’ve worked service jobs for 20 years and have been doing an office job from home for just over a year and even if I’m not an introvert, getting to choose who I see in person and who I don’t feels wonderful, but I’m also very good at socializing online so I guess I don’t feel the need to see my colleagues in person for this reason…
Are you a manager by any chance?
No.
Totally agree. I’m on restricted duties at the moment so meet all of my clients on teams. I hate it. The audio is terrible so one or both of us is always mishearing, my desk is in front of a window so I have to keep my curtains closed for them to see me. I don’t get to build the same rapport with them and their responses to my questions are more stilted because of it. A large part of my job is judging body language and reading non-verbal cues, which is next to impossible on teams.
And on monday, my computer decided to do a mandatory, 3 hour update, so I missed an appointment and couldn’t access the client’s number to apologise or explain. So I had to text a colleague to run over to the client’s office let them know I wasn’t going to make it
Further to that, I have found that in-person training sessions are much more effective than training over Teams/Zoom/Skype.
Not specifically because you are in the room with the instructor, but rather because you are in the room with the other students.
The opportunity to chat casually with the others during breaks is often where much of the learning and deepening of understanding happens. You can learn about their different approaches to the same problems you have. You can discover that you share confusion about something the instructor had briefly touched on , which can lead to a deeper discussion in class.(far too often during online training nobody asks what they assume is not a common question)
In your intro paragraph you say meetings. I think people who still think of meetings as being a worthwhile way to spend company time probably are demographically preoccupied with the alleged value of “in person”.
Because generally social interaction is easier and better face to face. You can read people’s facial cues better, have true eye contact, better hear the subtitles of voice and mood. People feel more connected with someone if they have met them face to face.
Alternatively, communication via email and video call can be hard and easily misread. People can misread emails as aggressive or be aggressive and not realise the impact. Communication on a video call, especially in big groups, can be difficult and impersonal.
Meeting up occasionally is probably seen as good a way to keep your team coherent and friendly. You’re more likely to be aware of the other person’s feelings if it’s someone you’ve socialised and spent time with. It’s easier to be empathetic and kind if you know that person in the flesh rather than just a name on an email or a random face on a video call. You’re more likely to make allowances for other people if you know about them and their circumstances.
When working remotely how many times do you have social calls and chats with your colleagues? It’s an important element of being in a long term team.
I work in a hospital in a busy face to face job but some colleagues I barely see as we have different weekly rosters. So I only interact with them via email or video call; despite being in the same building a lot of the time. We make the time once a month to have a team meeting and social catch up as it’s good for everyone and the team. It’s similar to what you’re doing once a year across a country.
You may not see the value in it but it may be worth noting other people may see the value in getting to know you and understand you. For example if that socialisation isn’t something that comes natural to you, your team members seeing you and getting to know you will also help them adjust to work better with you. It is very much a 2 way thing.
I got to say, this is only true if interaction is actually better in person. For me I’m not sure that is the case. I also do not participate in all social calls that my company set up, but I am always available for 1v1 video calls with my colleagues.
I was at the office 3 times last year and that is plenty enough for me and my team.
Pretty ableist to assume everyone wants that though. Like I’m autistic and I do way better with video calls and emails than in person.
The extraverts had the tables turned on them in 2020 and have been itchy for a captive audience ever since. It’s a drug fix for these people, nothing more. I’ve skipped every cross country in-person team building gibberish since 2020 and will continue to do so.
I have a slightly different perspective that hasn’t particularly been mentioned yet.
I think you agree that communication with your spouse and friends is better in person than online. Otherwise, why do you live together with your spouse? That’s the argument of the meet-in-office folks.
However, the difference is that you don’t care about or hate your job and/or coworkers. Other people, who push for these meetings, do not feel like this. Hence they enjoy the higher quality of relationship offered by occasional in-person time, but you don’t.
Not sure about this.
I like my job, and my coworkers.
Do I like them enough to spend my own time going to see them instead of my family? Nope.
You can like people but prefer other people.
I would argue that the in person difference revolves around a lot of intimacy, and further encourages coworkers to ogle other members and increase the likelihood of sexual harassment or just office drama of coworkers now dating or having had a one night stand.
Personal life - better in person Work life - better separate
I’m not saying in office jobs are unhealthy or bad, just that if a job is remote, forcing them to get together when they took a remote job just promotes those things that they were avoiding for whatever reasons they applied for a remote job.
That’s a lot of mental hoops…
Forcing remote workers to go somewhere in person when they don’t sign up for an in person job. Glad to see you disagree, but by no means are there any hoops
Not sure if you even need to bring in a sexual component (dude?)…some people feel like their work colleagues are their “2nd family”. Mostly the ones that love to gossip and take a 10 minute break per hour to go to the break room to meet people.
None of which apply here, these are remote workers, being forced to go to an in person meeting. Those people you are talking about work in person jobs, unless the break room is their kitchen and their second family is a reference to having 2 families
Some people need to be around others, some people hate it, some people are indifferent. Everyone is different.
I find social interactions very draining. While others find being isolated draining.
I think we are likely in the minority but that doesn’t make us weird. No one is normal.
Social interactions are totally draining for me, but I cannot understand a person until I had a face to face communication with them.
Thanks for posting that. I find social interactions pretty draining as well, and default to email or chat whenever possible, but your post made it click in my head that even a quick video call with a new (or old!) colleague makes later communications feel so much easier.
Same here. I am introverted and I hate social interactions. It drains me. BUT for me, after talking and meeting a person face-to-face a few times, all the rest of the online communication becomes a lot more smooth-sailing.
Because I can’t seem to act the same remotely as I do in person. I have trouble reading the room and responding as expected.
Yep. In my review with my last boss, while transitioning to a new team, he noted that someone had said I should act more professionally. No idea what he meant! Never had such a thing said to me in decades of in-person work.
In person, we get a better feel for the emotions present. No getting around the fact that we evolved to be social animals. When the internet first became a thing, it was conventional wisdom that we were missing out on a lot of social cues by only communicating via text.
My company seems to have nailed it, so far. Mostly leaning on hiring local employees, but no mandate to come in. They can meet up, and that’s nice for many reasons. I’m starting to feel left out a bit, wanting to fly up there again, just hang out for a day or two, build relationships, learn about what people outside my team or working on or struggling with. Generally shoot the bullshit and make friends. Guess that’s passe now.
I’m in the same boat as you. It’s a waste of time for me, but others seem to need it.
It’s worth noting I have autism though. So social interactions don’t do much for me.
I realized in fairly early adulthood that I have traits that would have gotten me an Asperger’s diagnosis pre DSM changes so I relate.
Spent years making quarterly trips from outside Indy to upstate NY - somehow the boss thought it was good for morale or something.
What it was good for was reminding me how much I disliked that individual as a human being in general, and why I needed to GTFO there.
Airports? Days? I live 30 mins walking distance from my office and I’m still not bothered to go there.
I share the same opinion as you. My job is mostly remote, but I am required to come to the office (2 hour drive away) once every month or two (which has mostly come down to company meetings once every 2 months).
On the bright side, they book me a hotel room and compensate me for gas and wear-and-tear on my car, but pretty much when I get there, it’s a normal day with a scrum meeting almost first thing, which we do virtually almost always anyways, and then the same work I’d be doing at home, just at a cubicle. We sometimes go out for a group lunch, but most of the time we’re on our own (I don’t really eat lunch so I just grab a coffee), and then we have the company meeting which could 100% just be done virtually. My only real interaction with anyone in the office is greetings when people walk in and that’s pretty much it.
I’m with you, I really don’t see the benefit, and I know I can’t complain much because it’s not very frequent, but it’s still 4 hours of driving (which btw, I think I’m expected to not count as “work time”) and it doesn’t benefit me or anyone else I see anyways.
You’re not being weird. Some people like face to face, some don’t. Not everybody’s the same and to claim that would be naive. Unfortunately, there are more people who enjoy face to face than not, and most of them work in management: management is interacting with people --> you have to like interacting with people to be at least a passable manager --> the chances are much higher you enjoy doing that face to face --> management makes decisions --> face to face is valued.
Same goes for salary: management is there to delegate work --> they are disconnected with the day to day of workers because they don’t do their work --> management sees workers as less qualified than themselves --> logically never would pay those “less qualified” same or more than themselves. Management makes decisions so guess who gets paid more…
It’s just how things shake out. If workers become management, they too forget how things are and slip into the same pattern observed above. It’s just unfortunate how the human brain works.
I find it difficult to put my penis in people of I don’t see them in person and I want to put my penis in people.
I’ve worked 2 jobs for 22 years, my side-gig being the 22-year one while my day-job moves about.
Working remotely has allowed me to change addresses, cities, regions, coasts, countries, and time zones many times in those 22 years. Had there been enough work in the side gig, I would have been happy to make it my primary job; but I say that as I know the day job has taught me techniques and tools I would maybe never have been able to bring to the side gig without that incentive.
Seeing people in the flesh is neat and keen and fetch, or whatever. But I’ll reserve that for my friends.
When it comes down to it, I have the power to require that a job pay me for every moment I do things on their behalf; and that includes commuting. I don’t want to do it, and they don’t want to pay me to do it, so I don’t.
look me in my same face you would see if we turned cameras on every once in a while?
Not the same as interpersonal interaction, misses much of the communication we evolved to express and understand.
OTOH, I’ve had a few Zoom-only relationships where we’re pretty tight, but that’s rare.
LOL, one of those is my Zoom rep. We email occasionally, trade pics and jokes. Every few months we Zoom and shoot the bullshit about our lives. She gets me the skinny on upcoming stuff, where my account’s at, what I might need or not need. Because we’re tight like that, she jumps when I need a thing, and in turn, I read all her correspondence carefully.
Another is a coworker, nearly my best friend at the company. When we finally met in person at a team meeting, we were tight. Boss was like, “Had you guys met before today?!”
Again, pretty rare relationships. Know who I’m really close to? The guy who lives here who I used to work in the office with. Man came to my wedding. None of those remote people did. When he needs my help, I jump.
And if anyone wants to poo-poo interpersonal work relationships, I will ask that person what they think of long-distance relationships. The conventional wisdom is that they don’t work out. (Yes, I know those are different. But how different and why? Think on that.)
Great post and question! Much food for thought as we navigate this new world.
Anyway, I had some thoughts earlier tonight, both pro and con.
I’m sure you have friends outside of work right?
That’s the part I never understand about people who connect working in office and with the fun of seeing others is person.
Why are you so willing to put up with commuting, office quality furniture, public restroom facilities, sick people who realllllly should have leverage optional work from home days or just regular old sick time… When you could just have more time for friends outside of the workplace.
I see my friends on weekends or they come over and we have game nights spending quality time with each other rather than infrequent unplanned interactions when we both should be doing something else.
My personal life friends are the people I “jump” for. Not coworkers. Having to “jump” for a coworker is and should be an inconvenience in the workplace because it means a failure of planning occurred somewhere. You can still have friendly camaraderie in the face of inconvenient circumstances but I don’t think you need to have some deep relationship to help out a colleague. That comes with the job to some extent.
When I’ve become friends with people from work, I invite them into my entirely separate personal life and in fact that is the case for one of my closest friends.
I just feel like If you wanna hang out with people from the office invite them to something outside of the office. The whole captive audience thing is such a demoralizing foundation to start a friendship with.
Honestly, our office has quality furniture and nice restrooms which are frequently cleaned and restocked throughout the day.
It seems like the difference in this thread is people that like their work vs people that hate it. It seems like the latter is in the majority.
I like my work but I see my coworkers similar to the people I see on public transportation. Limited, friendly interaction when needed. Never consider your work colleagues as more than that. It’s creepy.
Yep, I really enjoy my job too and I even work with some really good people but I keep my personal life… personal. It’s not like I hide my personality and life from my colleagues but I’ve got enough friends that I don’t feel like I need to add any more to my inner circle.
Depends on where you work. My colleagues are brilliant, I’ve made lifelong friends at my work place but then it’s quite a radical work environment so attracts interesting people. I’d be gutted if I couldn’t see them every week.
A “radical” work environment? What do you work for, the Red Army?
Not far off, it’s a worker co-op 😆
So why not hang out with them outside of the workplace?
Obviously I do, some of them are close friends now. But being around 100 people I really like for 27 hours a week is really good for me. During the pandemic I only went into the physical office once a week and it made me realise how much I appreciate that kind of socialisation.
Or people may like the technical side of their work but hate everything else.
I’ve seen people in technical roles that love to do technical design work, but they are middling at it because they don’t cross-learn from others nor do they choose to do the bare minimum in coordination before turning in a submission.
And we have written in the job description that the role includes cross-discipline coordination and direction of less knowledgeable staff, so it isn’t like it isn’t part of their job like they claim.
I don’t mean to say that the place can’t be nice but I would hope your home is of greater comfort than your workplace in most cases.
I’ve worked retail, office jobs, call center jobs and warehouse jobs. I made an office ‘friend’ in two of those jobs. One who id grab drinks with outside of work and another who id chat to via text occasionally. But as our jobs changed and lives moved on. So did we.
I don’t feel the need to be forced into social situations, people are tiring and there’s better things I could spend my time on that being shoved into a room with co-works who I have no interest in talking to and have no interest in talking to me.
Both my best friends are long distance friends. I’ve known one for 13 years, we’ve met up once. And one for 9 years who I’ve never met in person. And they’re the best friends I’ve ever had. If they have issues, I’m right there via text or call to help. Same if I have issues. We send eachother gifts for birthdays/ Christmas, or just because. The 9 year friend and I do a book trade and recommend eachother things we think the other would like (not just book recommendations).
My partner and I have been together for almost 2 years now, we live in different countries. And it’s honestly the best relationship I’ve ever had. Not because of the distance, we visit eachother multiple times a year. But the distance also isn’t an issue.
So long distance friendships/ relationships can work.
Just because some people need that face to face interaction, doesn’t mean everyone else does. Especially when it’s forced by a workplace. If it was to meet up with a friend, I’m sure it would be more welcomed. But being made to meet up with co-workers who aren’t friends/ close with, that sounds miserable. Being made to do something you don’t want to do/ aren’t interested in is never fun. Ever try get a teenager to clean their room? Often not very high on their list because it’s something they don’t want to do. The same can be said for social events with co-workers for a lot of people.
ive worked on remote and office teams and i think that the asynchronous remote workflow can be more efficient and more easily measured. there’s a paper trail for every conversation that happens. but you also enable dickheads who don’t like to work when you pair them with managers who have no idea what’s going on. ive worked on teams like that too.
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Not to say that being in an office is better for everyone, and I think people should be able to freely choose a working style that fits them best. There are a few benefits of in person meetings and gathering, here are some I thought of.
A: To make sure You didn’t outsource work assigned to you to someone in a foreign country for a fraction of your salary.
B: To bring up the whole team in one place to look at something, and/or socialize in a way you just can’t over a virtual call.
C: To cross-communicate between departments more, and proactively avoid silos of information on multidisciplinary projects.
D: Meetings and calls can feel more transactional when done virtually than in person, there’s less ability to talk about other stuff besides a brief bit of small talk at the beginning or end.
E: Extroverted people feel lonely with prolonged work from home just as much as introverted people get tired out from being around others for long.
F: A manager needs to get more than just a verbal answer on something. Someone can easily just say “yeah yeah everything’s fine”, but there’s stuff with unspoken body language that can be gauged much better in an in-person conversation.
