- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- news@lemmy.world
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The thing is, there is an extremely simple way to stop those and any attacks: get out.
It’s not terrorism when it’s a major state actor and they’re not hiding their involvement. That’s just war.
The bridge is a legitimate military target as it is used as a supply route
Uhm, no, based on your definition not even the official 9/11 story’s Al-Quaida would be considered terrorists because they supposedly admitted to what they were doing:
FBI’s terrorism definitions:
International terrorism: Violent, criminal acts committed by individuals and/or groups who are inspired by, or associated with, designated foreign terrorist organizations or nations (state-sponsored).
Domestic terrorism: Violent, criminal acts committed by individuals and/or groups to further ideological goals stemming from domestic influences, such as those of a political, religious, social, racial, or environmental nature.
Encyclopedia Britannica:
terrorism, the calculated use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective. Terrorism has been practiced by political organizations with both rightist and leftist objectives, by nationalistic and religious groups, by revolutionaries, and even by state institutions such as armies, intelligence services, and police.
Cambridge:
violent action for political purposes
Al Queda was a non-state actor with state support. You bolded “nations”, but that whole line says “designated foreign terrorist … nations”. The Ukrainians are not trying to instil fear, they’re cutting a major logistical line with military uses.
Devils in the details, as usual.
I also bolded nations (state-sponsored), political organizations, state institutions such as armies and intelligence services.
Exactly for that reason. Ukraine is openly and clandestinely attacking* Russia, most likely with help from Western governments. The goal is to instill fear in the Russian population in order to reduce the russian population’s willingness to support or accept the ongoing SMO/war against Ukraine/NATO expansion.
- I’m not judging, they’re at war.
The goal is to deny Russia a supply route. If they wanted to instill fear they’d strike apartment buildings like the Russians do.
Ukraine was likely behind the assassination of Darya Dugin and they’ve flown drones armed with explosives over residential areas in Moscow.
Just one source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65751632
Not to forget the Nordstream pipelines (though I’m sure the US was heavily involved).
Come on man, there are no good people in war. Stop the “Russian talking points” line while simultaneously regurgitating Western talking points. It’s quite tiresome.
I’ll grant you Darya’s assassination is suspect, but like you admit, there’s no confirmation. As for the drones, that’s a ridiculous false equivalence given those drones were targeting military assets and no civilians were hurt by them, unlike Russias pattern of deliberately targeting civilian infrastructure.
I’ve seen no credible evidence that anyone other than Russia was behind the Nordstream attacks, but feel free to try to convince me otherwise.
I might add my grandparents were great when they fought off the fascist Nazis and Imperial Japanese. Russia is wholly in the wrong for this war and did so only under the false assumption they’d be able to take over quickly and with acceptable repercussions.
You’re the one bringing up “Russian talking points”; the views I present are my own.
You’re the one bringing up “Russian talking points”; the views I present are my own.
He said, she said - we’re going in circles here. Either we’re both able to accept that we have our own views, hopefully based on research of somewhat neutral or at least sources of both sides or we’ll keep throwing mud at each other for no reason.
I’ve seen no credible evidence that anyone other than Russia was behind the Nordstream attacks, but feel free to try to convince me otherwise.
Sure thing, see:
After months of accusations by Western states that Russia carried out the attack against itself, the narrative about Russian “ghost ships” began to crumble. On May 21, the Swedish paper, Expressen, wrote that “the Russian ships have been able to be excluded from the investigation” because “their positions have been mapped and the conclusion must be that they have not been in such a place that they could have carried out the deed.” […] In a June 7 article, the Washington Post cited intelligence gleaned from the Discord Files to assert that the Ukrainian military had secretly orchestrated the Nord Stream sabotage. “All those involved reported directly to Gen. Valery Zaluzhny, Ukraine’s highest-ranking military officer,” the Post claimed, “who was put in charge so that the nation’s president, Volodymyr Zelensky, wouldn’t know about the operation, the intelligence report said."
Source: The Grayzone
I’m aware TGZ is suspect to many (I can already hear the “tanki tankie!!!11” crowd) and I don’t take anything they write at face value either, but seriously, this is solid reporting on the matter, a good summary of the various narratives that have been put into play so far, it’s well sourced and based on data collected by Erik Andersson who lead an independent diving expedition to the blast sites. You can also check out his Substack if you absolutely don’t want to read TGZ.
If you’re still convinced it was Russia, I don’t know what to tell you.
If the goal were to instill fear in Russian citizens, they’d be attacking Russian citizens.
They are not.
They are attacking a Russian supply line to hamper their offensive efforts.
When you give bad faith actors the benefit of the doubt, you look like a bad faith actor yourself. Stop parroting Russian talking points as if there’s a way for Ukraine to have their approval without capitulating.
If the goal were to instill fear in Russian citizens, they’d be attacking Russian citizens
For example, like the Kremlin is bombing Ukrainian apartment buildings and murdering civilians.
You’re replying to a comment where I explicitly mention that Russia and Ukraine are at war. Duh. Thanks for… explaining war?
I never disputed that Russia is killing Ukrainians. wtf.
Russians bombing apartments is more akin to terrorism than Ukrainians bombing a supply route.
Office buildings are not military targets, nor was the plane used to strike the Pentagon (getting ahead of that potential rebuttal). The Kerch bridge is as it’s used to transport military goods to the front line.
There’s a reason I quoted multiple definitions. The 9/11 example is also clearly a response to the comment I’m replying to because the author claimed that terrorism requires that the perpetrators are hiding their involvement.
None of your definitions match Ukraine, which attacks military targets during an active war started by a nation that invaded them.
Now, Russia actively bombing civilian targets to generate a climate of fear in a population to bring a particular political objective, seems to awfully match that definition.
What’s so interesting to me is that from much of what I’ve read - bombing civilian populations as a way to end a war has basically never worked. It was pushed heavily in WWII due to I think LeMay theories, but basically strengthened morale to stand up to the enemy instead.
Of course, not saying the Russians, or really anyone who gets into a war is necessarily behaving rationally, but this is sadly very destructive with very little history saying it’ll help anyone achieve any goal.
Yeah, in case of Ukrainians they know that if they surrender it still won’t be over, the next thing will be killing them and moving them to far east until the Ukrainian identity is completely erased.
Yeah, in case of Ukrainians they know that if they surrender it still won’t be over, the next thing will be killing them
The constant refrain of “Russia wants to kill every Ukrainian”. It’s never made sense. There has never been any reason to believe that the goal is to kill Ukrainians.
Can you lay out exactly why you think that Russia will kill Ukrainians once the war is over? Can you lay out why you think the goal is to kill Ukrainians?
- Putin was never hiding that in his opinion Ukraine has no particular cultural significance or uniqueness
- If you watch interviews of Muscovies they want to exterminate Ukrainians some people didn’t even have problem with saying that Ukrainian children should be murdered
- there are already brutal attacks on Ukrainian civilians and many documented war crimes
- nearly a million of Ukrainian kids were kidnapped and sent to Muscovies, that’s basically a textbook example of genocide
Do you believe things will get better if they have full control over Ukraine?
Thanks for explaining war to me. Helpful.
The purpose of felling the two towers was to cause terror and change amaricans political views.
The purpose of felling the Kerch bridge is to stop russian bringing military resources into the Ukraine.
What maybe a difficult point is something like the bombing of ww2 cities like Dresden, Coventry or Hiroshima. Many there were making munitions for Japan so was it.civilian or moltrry
Agreed, 9/11 isn’t a good example for the topic of the RUS/UKR war. Thanks!
Lol, not only is it not in Russia but in Russian occupied Ukraine it’s also not terrorism, it’s war
Even russia would be fair from a ukrainian perspective. It’s not like russia has been holding back in this regard
It’s only terrorism when Russia does it.
It is when they target civilians in another country
Ok, Mr. Double Standards.
Lol, Russia killing civilians IN ANOTHER COUNTRY is absolutely terrorism and a war crime vs Ukraine blowing up a bridge in their own country to prevent an invading force from using it to transport ordinance which is absolutely not terrorism
Crimea is Ukraine.
Uhm… it’s war? The war you started? A war caused by one of the biggest terrorist state? A glass house of a state.
i’m sure you’re talking about the US. Waging war over 10 countries or more in the last 20 years and staging coups. To all the civillians who became victims, thats quite a terrorist policy.
Meanwhile, Russia does this: BBC News - Ukraine war: Russia strikes Ukraine grain after ending sea deal https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66242446
Fuck them.
Terrorism is when another nation resists your genocide and the more they resist your genocide the more terrorism it is
It’s the same age old story: big guy punches a small guy and when the small guy punches back, the big guy starts crying that he’s been punched.
Cause and effect, you reap what you sow.
Crimea river.
These aren’t “terrorist attacks” against Russia. They’re “special military operations”.
That’s absolutely not true, the West is not turning a blind eye.
I have no problem turning a blind eye to what the desperate defenders do against an egregious and genocidal invader.
If Russia doesnt like it, they can surrender and end the war.
