Military service is compulsory for most Jewish men and women in Israel. But politically powerful ultra-Orthodox parties have won exemptions for their followers to skip military service and instead study in religious seminaries.
So…
Their religious beliefs prevents them from having military service…
But not supporting a genocide…
And they can still violently attack people?
Most ultra-orthodox Jews are actually anti-zionists. It’s not uncommon to see them joining pro-palestine peace protests.
Within Israel they are a minority, and their broadly anti-war stance combined with their dependence on the state for financial support (most of the men are unemployed) have made them quite unpopular in the eyes of the general population.
I’m confused…
Are they a politically powerful group like the Associated Press says?
Or a small minority with no political power like a random social media account just told me?
The
vast majority of Hareidi Jews are Zionist.There are small groups totalling a few thousand who are Anti Zionist but live in Israel.The Ultra Orthodox majority not only supports the state, but are represented by religious parties in the current government under Netanyahu.
Edit: Survey data shown below shows that although Hareidi Jews in Israel participate in the government, are represented by designated parties, and those parties are members of the current government under Netanyahu, the majority of those same people consider themselves either “not too” Zionist or “not at all” Zionist.
The vast majority of Hareidi Jews are Zionist
So as a larger community, they’re hypocritical and support the genocide in Gaza.
But some fringe members are actually non-violent and against the genocide of their neighbors?
That makes sense.
But the other person just claimed the opposite:
Most ultra-orthodox Jews are actually anti-zionists
Which is what confused me.
Your definition of Zionism is almost certainly not what the word means in Israel
I mean, probably, yeah that’s a safe bet.
But I meant you replied to me and said one thing, and someone else replied to me saying the exact opposite.
But yeah, you seem to know what you’re talking about and I was curious. So thanks for answering my questions.
Yes aleph posted links to survey data below that shows most Hareidi Jews do not consider themselves “somewhat” or “very” Zionist. Hence that statement. I was basing my statement on government participation. Hareidi Jews vote at or above national voting rates, and their parties (Shas and UTJ) are members of the governing coalition. Anti-Zionist parties (such as Ra’am) would never be willing to join a ruling coalition.
The vast majority of Hareidi Jews are Zionist.
According to a recent survey, less than half of Haredi Jews outside of Israel identify as Zionists, post October 7th.
In 2016, the percentage of Israeli Haredim who identified as Zionist was just 33%.
Do you have any recent figures for within Israel itself that confirms a “vast majority”?
Thank you for the links. It seems I missed the mark on that one.
I mean extremely few “Trump’ers” in the US would tell you they are racists, but almost all are…
I didn’t say they weren’t politically powerful. The two main Haredi (Ultra-orthodox) parties are significant part of Netanyahu’s coalition, and they have always had a disproportionate power compared to the Haredi population because almost all Haredi voters vote for them.
Within the Haredi community there is still a wide range of opinions, of course. However, even within Israel most have not traditionally described themselves as Zionists (only 33% percent, according to a 2016 survey).
The two main Haredi (Ultra-orthodox) parties are significant part of Netanyahu’s coalition, and they have always had a disproportionate power compared to the Haredi population because almost all Haredi voters vote for them.
100% not trying to be a dick, because I appreciate the insight.
But is there a typo in there?
Or are you saying that the population will always just vote for the party because of shared religious beliefs…
Even though the party acts against those beliefs?
Like, I’m not trying to argue if that’s logical. I’m American, we have far right abrahmic extremists too that unironically support trump despite him pretty much doing the opposite of their religious guidance at every chance. No judgement on that, I’m not asking you to defend them.
I’m just asking if I’m understanding you right about what’s going on. Because I don’t understand how the Ultra Orthodox party can have “disproportionate power” over their own voting base.
Except in the context that they just vote for whoever their religious leaders tell them to without question or thought.
But also, a lot of shit has gone down since 2016… Those numbers might not be up to date
The first thing to understand is that Israel’s parliamentary system of government is quite different from the US’. Instead of two main parties dominating the political landscape, i.e. Republicans vs Democrats, Israel has around a dozen main parties which work together to form coalition governments where more than one party is in power at one time. Under this fragmented landscape, if you have a religious or ethnic minority who all tend to vote for the same party, that can lead to a situation where one group in society may hold sway over others politically even though they are not as as large a population numerically.
And yes, you’re quite right - a lot has changed since 2016, and some Haredi (especially the young) have been increasingly drifting towards the far-right nationalist parties like Likud (Netanyahu’s party) and the Religious Nationalists. However, as this AP article suggests, these recent converts moving away from the traditional Haredi parties are still a minority.
While the majority of Haredim living outside Israel still do not identify as Zionists (as per this recent, post-Oct 7th survey), I admit I don’t have any hard polling data for the current situation in Israel itself. If anyone else does, I would appreciate the info.
Well that’s an eye-opener
Its not true however. This is Neturei Karta, a small group of a few hundred members that has been denounced by even other Ultra Orthodox groups such as Satmar. Most ultra Orthodox Jews are Zionist [edit: based their participation in the state], although there is a minority who believe that the State of Israel is illegitimate because only God can create a Jewish State in the Land of Israel.
Well that’s an eye-opener
They are a minority in Israel, but powerful because they all vote as a block, so their votes are almost guaranteed.
They believe that their prayer and study provides divine protection to Jews in the land of Israel, so is better than military service. Most Israelis consider that bs and say that they are living for free off of the state.
Be Genocidal
Fight against israel government so you don’t have to fight against Hamas
???
I mean it makes perfect sense if the hypocrisy is self serving in all parts. Usually being a hypocrite is a shameful state of being, that’s why they have to insulate themselves with those like them.
More I read, the more predictable Israeli politics seems.
The outcome always seems to be “what’s most beneficial for Netanyahu’s survival.”
And in this case, its preserving the status quo since he needs that for a coalition, I guess?
That didn’t take long. If nothing Yahoo doesn’t resend this, it’ll probably bring his entire coalition crashing down around him and he’ll lose power finally. Which is the one thing he fears most, and the entire reason he’s waging his genocide.
Nothing yahoo got me rolling 🤣🤣🤣
Hopefully they leave the government in protest and trigger an early election. They are the only parties left keeping Netanyahu in power. (IE if any one of them left, he would lose the majority)
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Israeli police said protesters threw rocks and attacked the car of an ultra-Orthodox Cabinet minister, pelting it with stones.
But politically powerful ultra-Orthodox parties have won exemptions for their followers to skip military service and instead study in religious seminaries.
The long-standing arrangement has bred resentment among the broader public, a sentiment that has grown stronger during the eight-month war against Hamas.
Over 600 soldiers have been killed in fighting, and tens of thousands of reservists have been activated, upending careers, businesses and lives.
Ultra-Orthodox parties and their followers say forcing their men to serve in the army will destroy their generations-old way of life.
Earlier Sunday, thousands of men crowded a square and joined in mass prayers.
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