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ok, what is snap and why should I care?
One of my friends spent like a month distrohopping just to find a debian-based distro that fits these two criteria:
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First-class support for KDE
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Isn’t broken all the time
Ubuntu fails both. KDE Neon excels on the first one, but fails harder than ubuntu on the second one. Kubuntu as well. Debian has horridly outdated packages, and he refuses to use nix/flatpak. Tuxedo OS is obscure and broken. Mint is great, but installing KDE takes some effort.
He finally settled on Ubuntu Server with the native KDE package. Still has to do some weird incantations to banish snap tho.
How did things get this bad?
How did Pop!_OS fare?
You are about to do something potentially harmful.
To continue type in the phrase ‘Yes, do as I say!’But speaking seriously, I think he tried it for a while and didn’t like it either… not sure why specifically tho, I’ll ask him
When I used Mint, it felt like packages are outdated just like on Debian (based on Ubuntu LTS + needs time to rebase onto a new one).
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I don’t have a problem with snaps as a technology. If you want to use them, then who am I to judge?
But what I do have a problem with is when I don’t have a choice and I am being forced to use what the distro maintainers think is good for me. That is what finally made me quit Ubuntu and switch to Fedora.
Also, Snap is proprietary. That alone is reason enough for me to steer clear.
Well snap itself isn’t proprietary, the backend server distributing the snaps is.
Explain how this distinction matters in the real world?
Snap distribution is as much a part of snaps as Snapd.
Who cares that part of it is open source if other parts aren’t?
If Canonical folded Snap could be taken over by others who could build new server software for it, either from scratch or based off the other projects to develop alternative servers for it, and modify snap to accept multiple repos like that. That’s the difference, also just being able to fork snap like that. Though the fact it hasn’t been done says something about how many real snap enthusiasts there actually are.
If Canonical folded, someone else could come along and reinvent everything on the server side. And that makes it Open Source?
What makes it open source is the fact that the parts which matter most are open source. The part that installs on the system is open source, and because of that it can be more easily tweaked and modified to accept other servers. In actuality it can be modified to do so right now, it’s just that there is little reason to do so because the amount of people enthusiastic about snap isn’t very large, as it has many other problems besides just the centralized server infra.
I do have a problem with them, the same problem was solved, better, with other technologies like appImage (which doesn’t litter your mount list with 100 meaningless entries).
Even flatpak is better, snap is an also ran they’re trying to force on us without being as good as any of the competitors.
when I don’t have a choice and I am being forced to use what the distro maintainers think is good for me.
That’s the case on literally any distro.
And just like on literally any distro, you can also install Firefox from FlatPak, the Mozilla repo or from source.Except on Ubuntu it just installs the snap regardless. If you don’t pay attention you may not even realize that it is a snap. Also the snap store is controlled exclusively by one company with a questionable history.
Read my comment again:
install Firefox from FlatPak
the Mozilla repo
or from sourceIn none of these cases will Ubuntu be able to install it from snap instead.
Only the Firefox “package” in the Ubuntu repos actually just links to a script that installs the snap.
8.10 was the last good Ubuntu. (It also had the best default wallpaper ever)
If you look at the “improvements” in every release since, you’ll notice that shit like they do currently isn’t an accident:
9.04 integrated web services into the main user interface.
9.10 integrated Ubuntu One (Ubuntu’s OneDrive, upgradable for money) by default and introduced the slooooow Ubuntu Software Center
10.04 integrated an interface to post on social media
10.10 added app purchases in the Software Center
11.04 made Unity the default
11.10 removed Gnome as fallback to Unity
12.04 introduced the buggy HUD
12.10 added the famous Amazon ad lense to it by defaultand it goes on like this…
Looks like a NiN album cover.
Trisquel GNU/Linux, is Ubuntu with all the non-free packages removed. Don’t see any of that stuff.
I also am very fond of 8.10. It was my first exposure to Linux :)
This is literally the reason why I switched over to Debian. At least back then, snaps wouldn’t work if the home folders were not under /home/<username>, breaking all computers on the system I helped run.
Installed ubuntu on an rpi and firefox there ran snap. Was not very usable. Everything was so slow. Forcing an install of the dep package was the only way to use it. Not very well thought through bu cannonical.
sudo apt-mark hold snapdYeah but then your system starts behaving weirdly here and there.
Wait… I’m just about to switch over to Linux on a laptop and was going to use Ubuntu. This looks kind of cursed though?
Tbf, Unbuntu works, but they’re ran by a company which has made some questionable choices. You can still go with it if you don’t care too much, it has the advantages of being user friendly and well documented.
If you’d rather not, but you want something not too far and equally easy, you can go with Linux Mint, which is based on Ubuntu but disables snaps. They also offer differently choices of desktop environments, the default being Cinnamon (which looks a bit more like windows), and another being Mate, which is closer to Gnome.
They also have a “Debian Edition”, which aims to stop being dependant on Ubuntu and may or may not replace the default edition someday, but so far it’s not the one they recommend for new users.
Switching to Ubuntu is way, way better than staying on Windows.
That being said, Ubuntu is maintained by the Canonical company, and they have made some really sus decisions in the past. Things like putting Amazon ads in the application launcher and then trying to gaslight people when the inevitable backlash arrived.
The meme above refers to Canonical’s own Snap packaging format (think of it like UWP/Microsoft Store apps vs. “regular” Win32 apps), and the way they’re pushing for its adoption. Snap is installed by default on Ubuntu and official Ubuntu flavors. You can uninstall it manually, but Canonical has modified the APT package manager so that when an application is available as a Snap package, it automatically installs the Snap back-end and the application as a Snap package without notifying the user (instead of installing the
.deb-packaged applications, which is what happens on all other distributions that use APT). Canonical recently also ordered that official Ubuntu flavors (which are maintained by independent groups) can’t include Flatpak, a universal packaging format that directly competes with Snap, in their default installations.Download the live disc images of Ubuntu, Mint, Debian, Arch blah blah etc etc etc.
Distrowatch.com is a great resource.
Take them for a test drive before you commit.
If this is your 1st forlay into Linux and you just wanna ride, do yourself a favor and install Mint. It works, and it’s a great way to get into it easily and painlessly and operates (mostly) how you would expect it to coming from another OS.
Welcome
You could try out Linux Mint¹, they’re Ubuntu based and disable Snap by default².
Just install something else like Linux Mint or Pop OS. Ubuntu doesn’t seem to want to respect your rights as a user. You do one thing and the sneakily do something else. Its a bit like how Microsoft makes Edge the default after an update.
It’s not as bad as it looks, especially if you aren’t hardcore, but for long-term linux users it’s not great.
Debian has become what Ubuntu wanted to be: An easy, clean distribution that basically just works, which is a major reversal.
Also consider fedora.
But don’t be worried about Ubuntu, it’s still completely usable.
Ubuntu’s packet manager Apt was already kind of awful in many ways, especially with its PPA hell. But them adding Snap packages somehow managed to make them reach even new levels of awful.
Pick whatever looks best. It’s not a big of a deal as we make it out to be.
Fedora KDE is also an awesome choice though if you must choose something else.
I recommend LMDE nowadays, but it doesn’t really matter.
KDE Neon or EndeavorOS are also options, depending on whats important to you in a distro. I recommend getting a live usb so you can boot into linux and try it before installing the whole system.
Can’t recommend EOS. Awful community when something breaks. Definitely not something for people coming from Windows.
Awful community? Its Arch, which is regarded as having one of the most comprehensive guides and as long as you find someone willing to not be a dick, the community is great!
I’m specifically talking about the EOS forum, which was just dicks throwing insults towards me having a support request and the admins consequently closing the thread and hiding it, telling me to make a new one if I still need support.
Why the hell you on EOS forum? Never looked at it, didn’t realize it was a cesspool. But like, no ones forcing you to use that shitty forum? I doubt most EOS users even bother to look at it.
Because Arch users would’ve shunned me for asking for support when I don’t use literal Arch.
True lmao
Ignore the noise and go with Ubuntu LTS. When you get comfortable with that, you could try Debian.
You could play it backwards too. Try Debian, if you can’t get it to do what you want, wipe and do Ubuntu LTS. But I do not recommend this path if you have no idea what you’re doing. People underestimate how difficult it is to do simple things when you don’t know how to, no matter how trivial.
Install cachyos
This is why I use Windows.
Windows is shit as well. It has 3 shells and you never know which one is the right one.
Every OS has it’s pros and cons 🤷.
The nextcloud snap is the best and easiest way to selfhost nextcloud.
I said it. Fight me.
The AIO docker compose container is far better, and I’ve run Nextcloud in pretty much every installation path in the last decade, using baremetal, my own docker, snap, NCPi, and VMs. All of them have had issues with updating, backup and the host going sideways for some reason or another. The AIO has been flawless for far longer than any of them managed.
I don’t think we should encourage the docker container has access to the docker socket paradigm.
You can get a Linux container image as well I think.
You are 👍, nextcloud needs like 2 admin per each user. The snap version works fairly well even after a lot of virtualization layers. Proxmox -> Ubuntu LXC -> Snap -> Nextcloud
Over docker compose?
BSD jails are superior in every way.
I can’t say I agree. BSD isn’t widely used or supported and the jails require manual setup and maintenance. Meanwhile docker compose and other container runtimes are well supported and can easily spin up and down environments based on a declarative configuration.
Can I download a jails image?
No that’s insecure, which is the whole point of containerization in the first place and subsequently purpose of jails within BSD
Agreed
Ehhhh no ty
Snap could have been great. Except it wasn’t very good…
I feel like I would be more okay with this is snap didn’t still have a lot of very real flaws.
I like your comment a lot because you can substitute a lot of different things for “snap” and it still ends up sounding like a very reasonable opinion
I feel like I would be more okay with leaded gasoline if it didn’t still have a lot of very real flaws.
I feel like I would be more okay with anarcho-capitalism if it didn’t still have a lot of very real flaws.
I feel like I would be more okay with PFAS-coated cookware if it didn’t still have a lot of very real flaws.
I feel like I would be more okay with single-use plastic bags if it didn’t still have a lot of very real flaws.
I feel like I would be more okay with cryptocurrencies if it didn’t still have a lot of very real flaws.
I feel like I would be more okay with generative AI if it didn’t still have a lot of very real flaws.
I feel like I would be more okay with eating highly processed meat if it didn’t still have a lot of very real flaws.
IMO the biggest issue with snaps in the sandboxing. Makes so many apps unusable for development.
And there broken design. They are way overly complex and snapd requires large amounts of permissions. They also add a ton of overhead and make everything slow.
smirks with nix packages
I use nix btw
not sure which is worse these days.
