This was not inevitable. This is a war Israel chose. It could have been prevented. Diplomatic talks were ongoing when the bombers took off for Iran. Israel’s continuing, illegal, unjustified airstrikes are unlikely to achieve their stated aim – permanently ending Tehran’s presumed efforts to build nuclear weapons – and may accelerate it. They must stop now. Likewise, Iran must halt its retaliation immediately and drop its escalatory threats to attack US and UK bases.
This conflict is not limited, as was the case last year, to tit-for-tat exchanges and “precision strikes” on a narrow range of military targets. It’s reached a wholly different level. Potentially nothing is off the table. Civilians are being killed on both sides. Leaders are targets. The rhetoric is out of control. With Israel fighting on several fronts, and Iran’s battered regime backed against a wall, the Middle East is closer than ever to a disastrous conflagration.
Reasons can always be found to go to war. The roots of major conflicts often reach back decades – and this is true of the Israel-Iran vendetta, which dates to the 1979 Islamic revolution. The so-called “shadow war” between the two intensified in recent years. Yet all-out conflict had been avoided, until now. So who is principally to blame for this sudden, unprecedented explosion?
Answer: three angry old men whose behaviour raises serious doubts about their judgment, common sense, motives and even their sanity.
And Putin (72), and Xi Jing Ping (72)
You forgot the worst one: Putin, age 72 years.
Trump and Netanyahu are both worse.
Wrong.
Only wrong if you think white lives are more valuable than non-white lives
I mean, Putin is a pretty big sponsor of mayhem, corruption and autocracy in nations of all average skin tone.
Sure, but less than Trump or Netanyahu
You’re from .ml, so we might not be working from the same facts, but I’d put Putin ahead of Trump at the moment for sure. Trump has more long term evil potential basically just because he’s in a very vulnerable but powerful country.
Gaza vs. Ukraine is the obvious comparison for Netanyahu, and it probably depends on how you measure it. I’d expect there’s more actual deaths in Ukraine, but it’s a more populous country, they’re more likely to be military casualties and the non-lethal misery dealt is much lower. It’s even harder to factor in Russian operations in Africa and the rest of the world, although they’re a significant source of brutality as well.
Oh yes. I forgot that ukrainians are black. How silly of me.
Lol. Nice Edit of the post.
They aren’t, that’s my point
No, you’re right. Putin is much worse.
More than 1 million dead in the war.
As bad as the war against Hamas is, it pales in comparison.
No, you’re right. Putin is much worse.
Sure, if you believe only whites are human.
More than 1 million dead in the war.
Lol. Where did you get that number from?
As bad as the war against Hamas is, it pales in comparison.
Oh, you’re a genocide denier and a fascist, never mind.
No, Putin owns Trump. Everything Trump does is literally at Putin’s request. Same with Bukele. Assad. And yeah, possibly Israel/Netanyahu, it’s hard to know how much they know. Because BRICS united those countries to do this to weaken USD globally and thus US control. And each country that helped BRICS will get a military objective from the west, and Iran wants Israel apparently (it’s likely Saudi Arabia is a secret member who will get part of Israel along w maybe Egypt). Russia wants everything the arctic ocean touches. China wants Taiwan, the South China Sea, and probably Australia (gold). I habe write ups in my history about it with links proving Trump/Russia connection. Iran and Russia worked together to get Trump elected in 2024:
https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy2766
Bibi got Trump elected same way as Iran Contra hostage situation, by holding the hostages against Biden by proxy so he couldn’t resolve the Gaza issues. It’s likely Epstein worked for Maxwell whose father worked to fly Jewish kids in bad situations from Europe to Israel. I have a link in my posts from a news article at the time.
So both Russia and Israel have blackmail on Trump, and it seems likely Russia has something on Netanyahu to get him to betray his own people like this. Or maybe he just wants money and power. Idk.
But they are seemingly pawns of BRICS/Russia/China, selling out their own people for greed. My guess is that China will come out ahead. And before you give me a bunch of rich authoritarian propaganda about actually China is great, remember the Uyghers? They had gold. The first genocides of BRICS (called “gold BRICS” in China) were over minority groups that lived on land with gold. And the reason they live there, is bc land that has gold is usually volcanic and dangerous, and usually has severe mercury contamination from the 1800s practices of gold mining. So they coralled these people off to deadly shitholes, and now they are genociding them and enslaving us and moving us to random countries so we can’t escape and live outside to make us work those deadly shitholes so they can be entombed in liquid gold while climate change eats us. Sorry, I mean, their bunkers and space ships to save them from bombs will totally work and the Titanic sub wasnt a testament to the wealthy’s ignorance of science and deadly hubris
Ok, but I’m talking about the real world, not the fevered conspiracy theory world of Qanoners painted blue.
Removed by mod
If anyone needed further evidence that “tankie” just means “anyone to the left of the US Democrats”, I present the above.
How is defending one fascist leader as less evil than two others left of anything?
So the person defending Trump and Netanyahu as less evil than Trump is a tankie as well? Or are you just a hypocrite?
No, theyre likely leaning towards overly focusing on American pain.
Someone overly focused on Netanyahu as evil, honestly like fair, he’s doing some hardcore genocide at the moment.
If someone is overly focusing on Khemini as evil, they’re likely an Islamophobe, gender reducionist, or Iranian.
Ok, so you’re just a hypocrite
Someone overly focused on Netanyahu as evil, honestly like fair,
That’s literally what got me called a tankie!
Great man theory nonsense. Was Netanyahu in power during the Sabra and Shatila massacre? During the Nakba? During the June 1967 war? Was Trump president when the US invaded Iraq? Was he president when the US sent billions of dollars in military aid to Israel to commit their genocide with? It’s the countries, not the leaders. They’re just the personification of a system. You could shoot each of these men in the head today, and nothing would change.
Trump, definitely. He’s at least too dumb to be evil effectively, I shudder to think where Vance would take things if he decides to keep the MAGA line going.
Netanyahu dying would lead to a collapse of his government and a more moderate faction coming to power and probably ending the wars… for now.
I know less about the internal politics of Iran, although this war they didn’t start obviously wouldn’t end.
There is broad support in Israeli society for the ongoing genocide in Gaza. There are polls showing as much (I think one of them showed a rate of 82%). This is not one man’s whim, this is not the will of some small shady elite, this is a consequence of material conditions in Israel. If you don’t take those away, some other face will lead the charge.
Plus I’m not convinced that an assassination of Netanyahu would lead to a different party taking charge. I can’t imagine their system of governance is set up this way. But this is entirely beside the point. The point is that one man’s death doesn’t change history. The allies didn’t win WWII because Hitler killed himself, Hitler killed himself because the allies won WWII.
There is broad support in Israeli society for the ongoing genocide in Gaza. There are polls showing as much (I think one of them showed a rate of 82%).
I did say “for now”.
I’m guessing “genocide” wasn’t in the wording of the poll question, but a two-state solution is just as fringe as a one state solution at this point. The vibe of the average Israeli is that they want Palestinians gone and don’t want to talk or even think about how.
Plus I’m not convinced that an assassination of Netanyahu would lead to a different party taking charge. I can’t imagine their system of governance is set up this way.
How much do you know about the system?
It’s a party list parliament with a pretty high degree of political fragmentation, comparable to the Netherlands. Netanyahu started with a slim majority propped up by the far-right parties, and his party has polled poorly since they let Oct 7 happen. Security was his main thing. He’s globally famous for his skill holding together coalitions, which he couldn’t do while dead, and it’s pretty typical to hold snap elections after something like that anyway. His successor also wouldn’t need to worry about being thrown in jail for corruption the moment they’re out of office.
But this is entirely beside the point. The point is that one man’s death doesn’t change history. The allies didn’t win WWII because Hitler killed himself, Hitler killed himself because the allies won WWII.
Great man theory is indeed dumb, but “leaders don’t change anything even in the short term” is too far in the other direction.
you know it’s bad when western MSM is both-siding it
What an insanely stupid article. Israel bombs Iran completely unprovoked. Khamenei and Iran are incredibly responsible and measured in their response. Meanwhile Israel is flailing around like a wild bully with their American big brother behind its back, threatening Iran that they are not allowed to strike back
And the liberals from TheGuardian write a both sides article about it as if all parties share blame.
If Israel has a right to defend itself, what does (still awful government of) Iran have?
I guess blaming Netanyahu and Trump only would have lead to too much blowback. The Guardian really doesn’t seem like it’s the same anymore.
The Ayatollah regime that has been building and funding terrorist proxies for years, that has a bloody countdown timer for the destruction of Israel in the middle it Tehran? The same regime who is, pretty obviously, rushing toward military nuclear capabilities in order to fulfill said countdown? You’re saying that they haven’t provoked Israel?
And you really think that firing drones and ballistic missiles at civilian populations is a measured response?
Fuck off with that bullshit.
Cool whataboutisms. Yes, Iran is shitty. No, Israel didn’t have to do this. Yes, it’s a great strategy to regain support for the Likud coalition government and not go to prison for corruption.
And you really think that firing drones and ballistic missiles at civilian populations is a measured response?
Pardon, which county are we talking about here?
Iran at least has the excuse that their missiles can’t aim that well.
Ah yes, blame all three even though its been clearly israel and Netanyahu who have been beating the war drums for 30+ years. Israel has been talking about Iran developing a nuke for 30 years and saying that “its around the corner”. Israel did the same with Iraq btw and dragged the US to war.
You mean unlike the islamic dictatorship that was founded with an objective to destroy Israel?
Oh no, another “we are the victim” comment
I’m definitely not a victim. But pretending that Iran is somehow morally superior to Israel is fucking laughable.
The Iranian regime is also criminal. When it comes to civilians however, the Israelis are far more criminal. They are settlers who steal other peoples land, they participate and actively endorse genocide. 82% of them want to ethnically cleansed Gaza.
We need a de-zionisation like we had de-nazification.
Yeah, i wouldn’t be happy if people came and took my land. The difference between them is that Iran has already done the deed and taken everything from those that aren’t Muslims.
Morally superior, probably not. Causing less geopolitical problems and starting less unprovoked wars, definitely. At least right now.
They learned from USA and the soviets how to invest in proxies that does the work.
Peak liberal both sidesism. Desperately clinging to the illusion that USA good, Iran bad. This is a big part of why we have genocide against palestinians and trump in office.
Desperately clinging to the illusion that USA good
You are either being dishonest or have bad reading comprehension. The OP clearly labels Trump as part of the problem, alongside Netanyahu and Khameini. They also blame Israel for escalating with Iran when talks were still ongoing. They are not saying what you claim they are.
I think it’s probably that Americans only do this “both sides are to blame” when their side is the one to blame
Where did you read “USA good” in that post?
Don’t forget Putin…
Fuck thes old, power-hungry war-mongering pieces of excrement. Their death will be celebrated by millions.
Please put an age restriction on politicians, it would solev sooo much nonsense.
Please put an age restriction on politicians, it would solev sooo much nonsense.
While I partially agree on this, let’s consider some cases:
- Hitler’s reign 1933-1945, his age: 44-56
- Stalin 1922-1952, age 44-74
- Putin 2000-?, age 48-?
- Pol Pot 1963-1981, age 38-56
- Louis XIV 1643-1715, age 5-77 or 16-77 if you count coronation as the start (sacre bleu jesus fuck)
- Xi Jinping 2012-?, age 59-?
Youth is clearly not enough. Age limit + term limit might be a useful combination, but it all falls down when you allow somebody to just grab all power anyway and reset all the rules and limits, like Putin and Xi Jinping have done.
Yes agreed
Putin is by far the worst one.
Neither Netanyahu nor Khamenei have the capacity for war the way the other 2 have.
And Putin already has achieved what Trump wants to achieve: being a dictator with full control of the state.
Oh how much the world would improve if all 4 of them suddenly get a bullet between the eyes.
They would immediately get replaced with someone just as bad if not worse. The world has an endless supply of power hungry warmongering assholes.
How is Putin worse than Netanyahu? Just compare the children death toll in Palestine vs. Ukraine.
Don’t mistake Ukraine’s ability for self-defense as Putin’s mercy.
putin just kidnaps children and converts them to be Russian to fight in his wars.
Good thing Israel never kidnapped children.
Which, while bad, is still vastly superior to just straight up exterminating them.
Who knows for sure? But we can assume that Putin had something to do with Hamas launching the strike just by the fact how much it helped him. It did cause half of the world to turn their eyes away from Ukraine, to believe that Gaza is now the most important crisis on this planet.
Why would a population living under a military occupation since 1967 do such a thing? And why would the world see a genocide as the most important crisis?
Putin, of course.
You’re biased, based on your handle. You think Gaza is important.
I’m also biased, because I live next to Russia. I think defending against Russia in the current situation is much more important than anything that could happen in Gaza. And if you want to take the historical perspective, Russia has violated my country and the people of my country several times during the last 300 years at least, and probably more. Middle East obviously has the potential to beat us on the historical record, given how the whole of human civilization practically rose in that area, but still. It’s not like this is happening for the first time over here either.
It’s not that I don’t care about their tragedies, it’s just that it’s nowhere near a top priority right now. If Russia stops being a crazy asshole, things farther away from my country’s borders may become more important to me. Still, note that if what I’m suggesting is true, Putin and Russia are partially to blame about what’s happening In Gaza. With a handle like yours, you probably cared about Gaza already before Putin’s manipulations, but half of the eyes of the lefties in west were looking at Ukraine. They are not looking at Ukraine anymore, like they should be doing.
Truth to be told, geopolitically speaking it seems much more sane to be on Israel’s side because they’re against Iran, who’s on Russia’s side. And Palestine seems to be kinda on Russia’s side as well so remind me again why I should support them at all?
You’re biased, based on your handle. You think Gaza is important.
Well at least liberals are being open in their belief that only white people matter…
But you’re literally a Gaza genocide supporter, so maybe you’re more of a fascist than a liberal.
But we can assume that Putin had something to do with Hamas launching the strike just by the fact how much it helped him.
This is like a parody of what a BlueAnon liberal would say, my god
With all the awful manipulation putin and the Russian state have done in the world play, I would be surprised if they didn’t have a hand in Hamas.
Yup, that is indeed a Qanon tier conspiracy theory. Liberals literally just reinventing the Judeo–Bolshevik conspiracy theory to blame Russia for those dirty browns fighting back against being genocided.
Putin is by far the worst one.
Only if you believe that white lives are far more valuable than non-white lives
Which non-white lives? The ones in Ukraine?
The ones in Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, and Iran. That should have been obvious, but you forgot that those non-Ukrainian people even existed.
Please put an age restriction on politicians, it would solev sooo much nonsense.
Yeah, people who are young enough to actually have to worry about the future.
Grumpy old men.
Trust The Guardian to “both-sides” a blatant war of aggression and just completely fail to mention the massive genocide Israel is carrying out.
Removed by mod
Seriously. The Guardian has had no problem with Muslims being killed up till now. So long as it was Israel doing it.
Huh? I have seen tons of articles in Guardian calling Israel’s actions a genocide. This is much more than what one can say for the rest of western mainstream media. And before someone says something along the lines of “yea only after everyone started saying it” there are many articles in 2024 and some of these articles go as far back as 2023 Nov, Dec (the Hamas attack was 2023 Oct and Israeli genocide started in October right after this) saying that dehumanizing language used by Israeli state ministers and events unfolding in Gaza are genocidal. I wonder what do you base these comments on when there are dozens of articles in Guardian calling this a genocide.
A consensus is emerging: Israel is committing genocide in Gaza. Where is the action?
Israel committing genocide in Gaza, says EU’s former top diplomat
Israel’s war in Gaza amounts to genocide, Amnesty International report finds
Military intervention must be used to stop the genocide in Gaza
What did you do during the genocide in Gaza?
We’re anti-Zionist Jews and we see genocide unfolding in Gaza
There is even an editorial one laying out how inhumane and aggressive Israeli state is:
The Guardian view on Israel and allegations of genocide: a case that needs to be heard
They call the Gaza genocide a “war” to this day. Opinion articles and quotes from others are not Guardian editorial.
Here is what actual news calling it a genocide looks like. Not hiding behind opinion articles and quote marks.
The ethnic cleansing and genocide of Palestinians remains, as ever, the clear goal of the Israeli government in Gaza. “The Gazans we evacuate will not return. They will not be there; we will control there. There is no other target. Any other target is a bluff,” Netanyahu added.
You mean tens of articles published in a main stream media since the genocide started all calling it a genocide has no impact? It has more impact than a smaller scale news site publishing similar editorial pieces. It has more reach and it contributes more. Having an editorial article with the same tone is the ideal situation but I will take the former any day when other media fire their long time employees for just a single comic for god’s sake. And we know how much international bullying there is to call writers of such articles anti-semitist. So creating an environment where people can publish such articles in a mainstream media outlet takes a lot of effort, resources and shielding. If we are going to race quotes here you go:
Israel’s leaders committed genocide in Gaza and must pay for it. Their political and media allies must too
There was a palastine support march in London about a month ago with almost half a million people joining it and a kilometers long line of people. I would like to think that main stream media allowing opinion pieces calling genocide a genocide has some contribution to that.
Try posting them here or anywhere else and see what the mods do with opinion articles if they are critical of Israel.
Israel’s leaders committed genocide in Gaza and must pay for it. Their political and media allies must too
Is written by Owen Jones who heavily pushed for this himself. TheGuardian did not decide to publish that out of their own free will. Owen is one of those “tiny guys” you are talking about. He makes videos against the Palestinian genocide almost daily.
If the Guardian did not decide to publish this opinion piece and tens of others from Owen and other authors with similar tones how did all these get published? Did they blackmail Guardian into publishing these? How is it not their free will?
False equivalencies.
damn they just pretend the UK is not the country that fuel Jets over Iraq to facilitate the bombing. Or it is not the UK base in Cyprus and vessels that provide a command center and communication tool to facilitate the mission.
If you want to attack Iran and accelerate to a wwiii don’t shy from telling the truth about your involvement, we know it, you know it …
Khamenei maybe an angry old man considering his country is facing an existential threat but Netanyahu is a wanted war criminal and Trump is a rapist with nefarious ties to the notorious Epstein
My Iranian ass spending minutes to get my VPN working so I can access lemmy and watch people whitewash the man responsible for all my misery only to shit on Netanyahu and Trump:
whitewash the man responsible for all my misery
Mohammad Reza Pahlavi?
Ali Khamenei.
Had nothing to do with the overthrow of the Iranian democracy in 1953.
So it justifies the crimes of the mullahs? Why do you want it to seem that America is the devil and the mullahs are OK? Can’t them both be bad in your mind?
Khomeini hijacked the revolution that ousted the Shah and turned it from a triumphant moment and chance for change into a “under new management” situation.
Khamenei now presides over this theocratic regime and continues to oppress Iran.
Khomeini hijacked the revolution
The lion’s share of the proletariat were religious conservatives. He didn’t hijack the revolution, he was a foundational pillar of its execution.
Khamenei now presides over this theocratic regime
Show me a Middle Eastern government more liberal than President Masoud Pezeshkia’s Independent Reformist coalition. Half their neighbors are Kingdoms, ffs. The other half are military dictatorships. Iran is one of the few proper democracies on the continent. It’s theocratic because the majority of its constituents are conservative theocrats sending up religious politicians to the parliament. Iran is no more theocratic than Pakistan or Mississippi.
I don’t have time or will to dive into all of this but this one part: “It is theocratic because the majority of it’s constituents are conservative theocrats” There are no non-theocratic politians in Iran, they do not get approved for standing in an election. Every candidate, on every level, has to be approved by the Guardian Council. Who elected that council? Well, half of the council are clerics, appointed the Supreme Leader. The other half are jurists, who are selected by the Majilis from list approved by the Chief Justice. Who appointed the Chief Justice? The Supreme Leader.
Meaning all 12 positions of the body that decides who can stand for election are either appointed by the supreme Leader or appointed by someone with direct allegiance to the Supreme Leader.
Take the president for example: Pezeshkian would legally not be able to stand for election if he wasnt a Shia Muslim or didn’t affirm that the Supreme Leader is the ultimate authority in matters of religion and social issues. Meaning by law, both social and religious reforms can only be done with the consent of the supreme Leader.
The constituents send up theocratic politicians because there are no other politicians. A theocrat has the ultimate power of determining who is and isn’t a viable candidate.
I mean screw the men responsible for your misery, but Iran is objectively the good guy when it comes to Palestine. We don’t have quite as much opportunity to shit on Khomeini now that Assad isn’t around, but we still hate him don’t worry.
From what I understand from your message it looks like to me that this is all something like a game for you people to virtue signal.
Edit: Funny how you got Khomeini and Khamenei mixed up. It shows how much you know and care about the matter.
From what I understand from your message it looks like to me that this is all something like a game for you people to virtue signal.
No? What do you even mean by whitewashing him? The atrocities he commits just aren’t relevant to the topic at hand, so they’re not brought up.
Edit: Funny how you got Khomeini and Khamenei mixed up.
Wow, TIL. I thought their names were both Khomeini but that makes more sense.
Not every conflict has a good guy, there are no good guys, the Khamenei regime is evil and so is the leadership of Isreal. Just because the latter attacked the former does not make them innocent, let the bastards burn and pity the civilian.
In any other country, Khamenei would be considered a pedophile.
You know, the whole marrying children business.
You are out of touch if you think Trump is worse than Khamenei
EDIT: Lemmy, wake me up when Trump orders to kill the protestets, because by every passing day most of you look more and more delusional to me, lost in your own hate. Feels weird defending trump, but there is a day and night difference between the two. See what Iranians themselves are saying.
Trump is actively helping to exterminate hundreds of thousands in Gaza. He is orders of magnitude worse than Khamenei
Lol. What about the millions that got them into office in the first place? It’s not a gender issue. It’s a human nature one - acting out their insecurities by lashing out at the perceived enemy.
The Zygon Inversion - A Transcript of The Doctor’s Speech [edited for brevity]
The Doctor: You just want cruelty to beget cruelty. You’re not superior to people who were cruel to you. You’re just a whole bunch of new cruel people. A whole bunch of new cruel people, being cruel to some other people, who’ll end up being cruel to you. The only way anyone can live in peace is if they’re prepared to forgive. Why don’t you break the cycle?
Bonnie: Why should we?
The Doctor: What is it that you actually want?
Bonnie: War.
The Doctor: Ah. And when this war is over, when – when you have the homeland free from humans, what do you think it’s going to be like? Do you know? Have you thought about it? Have you given it any consideration? Because you’re very close to getting what you want. What’s it going to be like? Paint me a picture. Are you going to live in houses? Do you want people to go to work? What’ll be holidays? Oh! Will there be music? Do you think people will be allowed to play violins? Who will make the violins? Well? Oh, You don’t actually know, do you? Because, just like every other tantruming child in history, Bonnie, you don’t actually know what you want. So, let me ask you a question about this brave new world of yours. When you’ve killed all the bad guys, and it’s all perfect and just and fair, when you have finally got it exactly the way you want it, what are you going to do with the people like you? The troublemakers. How are you going to protect your glorious revolution from the next one?
. . .
The Doctor: This is a scale model of war. Every war ever fought right there in front of you. Because it’s always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who’s going to die. You don’t know who’s children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken! How many lives shattered! How much blood will spill until everybody does what they’re always going to have to do from the very beginning – sit down and talk! Listen to me, listen. I just – I just want you to think. Do you know what thinking is? It’s just a fancy word for changing your mind.
Khameni didn’t want a war
So far also Iran only matched target groups after Israel targeted them first. E.g. Israel strikes MoD offices in Tehran -> Iran strikes back at the MoD in Tel Aviv. Israels strikes Iranian gas and electrical infrastructure -> Iran strikes back at Israeli Gas and electrical infrastructure.
Iran doesn’t want this war and keeps reiterating to go back to diplomacy, however the US and multiple G7 countries, especially UK, France and Germany are rattling the sabres more, defending Israels onslaught while condemning Irans responses. These countries claiming they would seek a diplomatic solution makes for rather cynical lies when they cover the attacker and condemn the defender.
Because they know they’ll lose it as things currently stand.
That’s why they’ve been trying to build nukes.
Gotta be a complete idiot not to build nukes when a rogue genocidal cult is constantly threatening to nuke you.
A nuclear Iran is one of the only hopes for peace.
They never tried to build a nuke
Yes, I’m sure a nation with huge oil and gas reserves wants nuclear just to have very expensive energy.
They want nuclear weapons to prevent regime change due to external interference. Russia can’t protect them. There’s no NATO style protection for Russian allies. I think we’re only seeing this now because of how weak Russia is on the global stage.
Sounds like they should have a nuke
We heard this dumb argument for decades
external interference
I think you mean western imperialism and genocidal zionism which have been attacking Iran for decades/centuries.
