Okay I would just upvote and move on, but you’re clearly baiting with that title so if it’s alright with you let’s have some banter :P
If I say that
the meme is on point
material conditions in China are to some extent better than the US
the US is definitely worse to its own people and the world
I’m staunchly anti-capitalist
but I also say that I still don’t like the Chinese state because I don’t consider that (and ML in general) a form of worker-owned means of production (whether or not you agree)
but I also say that I still don’t like the Chinese state because I don’t consider that (and ML in general) a form of worker-owned means of production (whether or not you agree)
If you don’t consider any actually existing country that’s trying to build socialism “up to your standard”, then you should re-evaluate the basis of your opposition. If you kow-tow to every western-supremacist talking point about how Vietnam, the PRC, the DPRK, and Cuba "aren’t doing socialism correctly because they aren’t as smart as [insert western-supremacist marxist here], then yes, you are a liberal.
but I also say that I still don’t like the Chinese state because I don’t consider that (and ML in general) a form of worker-owned means of production (whether or not you agree)
“Socialism is worker ownership of the means of production” is a syndicalist distortion of socialism. Workers should control the means of production, as in their operation should be based on popular consensus, but “ownership” suggests something like cooperatives (or, you know, syndicates), which operate on the same market system and a permutation of petite-bourgeois races to the bottom that we see under capitalism.
The people must control the state, “win the battle of democracy,” and via their control of the state dictate what happens to the means of production. Specific ownership is a secondary concern, though I agree with what I assume your position is, that the bourgeoisie have been granted too much power and authority in China.
Pretty sure that’s a toll booth. They widen to allow cars to queue and then narrow back down to transition back to free flowing traffic. It’s not a 50 lane highway merging to 20 lanes, it’s a 20 lane highway widening into a 50 lane queuing area and then merging back to 20 lanes to continue being a highway.
Is this a 20 lane highway merging into a 3 lane bridge?
But yes, China does have a car dependency problem. Something the government has acknowledged and is implementing aggressive policies to combat. From building full metro systems in all major cities in the same time it takes NIMBYs in America to shoot down a single line, to high speed rail, to literally restricting who can drive on what days based on whether you have an odd or even first number on your license plate. What’s America doing? Oh right, doubling down on car dependency and killing what little alternatives there were and calling people who speak out against it “woke.”
Do you think a people who were living in poverty and had terrible living conditions would be overwhelmingly supportive of their government? Come on now think for a second here.
The following is just a really odd way to convince someone of something in my opinion.
“China is one of the countries with the highest approval of their government by independent studies.”
Government approval is inversely correlated with poverty and terrible living conditions.
Therefore it is unlikely that “they def aren’t living like this”
It’s also especially odd if you’re mentioning independent studies. Are there not independent studies about the living conditions?
And to be clear, I don’t even disagree with you. I think a lot of westerners are affected by racist/orientalist views (or whatever you wanna call them) without realizing it. It just felt like a strange way to counter the thought process.
Nothing I was said was about “independent studies” versus “studies”. I get your point, I’m just saying that wasn’t part of what I found odd. I only used the phrase independent studies instead of studies because you did.
Brother I only said what I said because you literally said you thought me saying it was weird.
If you want to look at living standards you can compare cost of living, access to public transportation, cost of food, medicine, you name it. Its all cheaper and rapidly approaching parity with the west, if not already surpassing it.
But again living standards are often highly correlated with approval of your nation and the government running it.
Okay I would just upvote and move on, but you’re clearly baiting with that title so if it’s alright with you let’s have some banter :P
If I say that
but I also say that I still don’t like the Chinese state because I don’t consider that (and ML in general) a form of worker-owned means of production (whether or not you agree)
Am I a “lib”?
We’ve shown many times how the PRC is a worker-owned-and-controlled econoxy, and how the worker’s congresses function in action.
If you don’t consider any actually existing country that’s trying to build socialism “up to your standard”, then you should re-evaluate the basis of your opposition. If you kow-tow to every western-supremacist talking point about how Vietnam, the PRC, the DPRK, and Cuba "aren’t doing socialism correctly because they aren’t as smart as [insert western-supremacist marxist here], then yes, you are a liberal.
Can you define what the word means to you exactly?
“Socialism is worker ownership of the means of production” is a syndicalist distortion of socialism. Workers should control the means of production, as in their operation should be based on popular consensus, but “ownership” suggests something like cooperatives (or, you know, syndicates), which operate on the same market system and a permutation of petite-bourgeois races to the bottom that we see under capitalism.
The people must control the state, “win the battle of democracy,” and via their control of the state dictate what happens to the means of production. Specific ownership is a secondary concern, though I agree with what I assume your position is, that the bourgeoisie have been granted too much power and authority in China.
I disagree: they could’ve used real photos instead of AI generated images.
e.g. I looked at a map and picked the first large city I saw that I’ve never heard of, then looked up some images: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Nanjing%2C+Jiangsu%2C+China&iar=images&t=h_
those aren’t AI
deleted by creator
But also: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-08/china-s-50-lane-traffic-jam-is-every-commuter-s-worst-nightmare
Pretty sure that’s a toll booth. They widen to allow cars to queue and then narrow back down to transition back to free flowing traffic. It’s not a 50 lane highway merging to 20 lanes, it’s a 20 lane highway widening into a 50 lane queuing area and then merging back to 20 lanes to continue being a highway.
Here’s one in the glorious freedom country:
(Source)
Is this a 20 lane highway merging into a 3 lane bridge?
But yes, China does have a car dependency problem. Something the government has acknowledged and is implementing aggressive policies to combat. From building full metro systems in all major cities in the same time it takes NIMBYs in America to shoot down a single line, to high speed rail, to literally restricting who can drive on what days based on whether you have an odd or even first number on your license plate. What’s America doing? Oh right, doubling down on car dependency and killing what little alternatives there were and calling people who speak out against it “woke.”
Jesus, I hope they’ve installed number plate readers or similar instead since that photo was taken 😅
I’ve been to China plenty, they def aren’t living like this lol. Who believes this shit.
That’s funny because literally China is one of the countries with the highest approval of their government by independent studies.
So even if you’re telling the truth the vast majority of the Chinese people disagree with your sentiment.
Their comment wasn’t about government approval.
Do you think a people who were living in poverty and had terrible living conditions would be overwhelmingly supportive of their government? Come on now think for a second here.
The following is just a really odd way to convince someone of something in my opinion.
It’s also especially odd if you’re mentioning independent studies. Are there not independent studies about the living conditions?
And to be clear, I don’t even disagree with you. I think a lot of westerners are affected by racist/orientalist views (or whatever you wanna call them) without realizing it. It just felt like a strange way to counter the thought process.
I mention “independent studies” because people are insane and will call anything pro-China you say as just Chinese propaganda.
Nothing I was said was about “independent studies” versus “studies”. I get your point, I’m just saying that wasn’t part of what I found odd. I only used the phrase independent studies instead of studies because you did.
Brother I only said what I said because you literally said you thought me saying it was weird.
If you want to look at living standards you can compare cost of living, access to public transportation, cost of food, medicine, you name it. Its all cheaper and rapidly approaching parity with the west, if not already surpassing it.
But again living standards are often highly correlated with approval of your nation and the government running it.
Cool story