Let’s move the battlefield out of Ukraine and into Russia then.
Why would Ukraine want to take Russian land?
Not necessarily take, but a demilitarized zone might make sense, and that has to be put somewhere.
Like prevent troops amassing in “peaceful exercise” so they cannot surprise invade again.
Presumably parts of Russia is of strategic importance, being where they come.
Not all battles are about taking land.Sure, but implying Ukraine would want to attack its neighbouring country, to take land for any reasons seems strange. That’s more like what Russia would do.
Since Ukraine isn’t a real country, it can’t invade another country. That would be a warcrimes.
Zelensky already said that Ukraine is willing to exchange Belgorod for NATO membership.
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But remember, it’s the rest of the world that’s warmongering! Also up is down!
Come on, not even zelensky had any hope they would accept this peace plan. They’re basically asking Russia to stop the war and give back all the territory they occupied. The Ukrainian counter offensive stopped at a brick wall, the Russians have no reason at all to do this.
War is normally a slow process. In historical terms Ukraine is making good progress… it is mostly fiction where wars are one in a couple days.
Except Israel.
There have been a lot of exceptions. However the majority of wars are longer as if you don’t think you can win surrender terms are generally better than death.
Sure, if you fight in the middle of the desert with little cover and no mud, progress is fast once you cut through the defensive lines. Vs fighting in mud and forests.
Hmm, let’s just see what an actual war historian has to say about that https://www.agonmag.com/p/vlahos-ukraine-shares-same-fate-as
Western people are funny to say the least, i dont know why, if it has something to do if the fact u guys always lived in such a privileged position that u can live in a fantasy world.
Try to be pragmatic. I never said it had to be quick, I never said this is unwinnable right now, I just said that makes no sense for the Russians to accept this terms right now, and Ukrainians are not stupid, they know this. Or were u expecting putin to wake up this morning feeling bad for what he have done and just move his troops out of Ukraine?
Pretty crumbly and porous brick wall, there. And they apparently neglected to build it around Sevastopol.
The counteroffensive is moving forward slowly because the Russians put a ton of mines and trenches in the way. Plus they committed their best troops to stopping it. Still Ukraine is slowly moving forward in the south.
I wouldn’t want to be there right now on either side. But basically the Ukrainians are winning because their artillery is better. Once Ukraine moves their artillery within range of the highway along the Sea of Azov, the troops protecting Crimea will have their supplies threatened. This is the general plan and they’re getting closer.
I never said this in unwinnable, but don’t make any sense to propose a peace plan to Russia right now demanding them to return all the land they occupied. Ukrainians are not dumb, they know this, this peace “proposal” is just a piece of propaganda to western media to say they are trying to start peace talks with Russia or some shit. The Russian ministry answered this out of anger but he’s not wrong, the Ukraine is only getting their territory back if they can put a huge pressure on Russians, possibly only if they can manage to make Russia fear to be attacked on their own territory. And even if this happens we have to trust Russians won’t nuke Ukraine to protect their own territory.
They didn’t have any hope because Putin is a warmonger. Any “peace plan” that Russia would find acceptable would just delay the inevitable and give Russia time to build back up, they’ve already shown their cards. Russia needs to give up on its territorial aspirations and give back what it’s stolen. Russia could’ve held onto Crimea even had it just not invaded Ukraine, the rest of the world had basically turned a blind eye to it (it wasn’t right, but that was the reality), instead they get to watch their military turn to dust, just like Putin will be doing within a decade.
So you’re saying Crimea is not part of Ukraine?
I’m not saying that all, but facts on the ground were that, 2014–2022, Russia had control of Crimea and nobody was going to do anything about that for fear of getting into conflict with Russia. That Crimea even “passed” into Russian hands without much of a fight from the international community is probably what emboldened Putin to go after the rest of Ukraine. What I’m saying is that had he stuck to just that sort of low-level “piecemeal” approach to carving out sections of Ukraine, like what was do e with Crimea, he wouldn’t have gotten nearly the amount of international backlash that he got.
Is Crimea part of Ukraine? Yes, but when it comes to international borders, facts on the ground are what matter in the long-run. Had Putin bided his time, eventually it would’ve just been accepted as fact. Nobody else would’ve ever cared enough to start a war over it. With Putin going for all-out-war though, he’s revealed Russia’s military weakness and facts on the ground have become mutable again, giving us the chance that we’ll hopefully see Crimea come back into Ukraine.
I’m not judging who is or who isn’t a warmonger or whatever, let’s just be pragmatic, it makes no sense at all for Russia to accept those terms. Were u expecting the Russian Govt. to suddenly wake up one morning feeling bad for what they’ve done and just move the troops out of Ukraine, including Crimea who’s under Russian control for over a decade now, and say “sorry, my bad”? This 10 point plan they “proposed” was only made so western media can say they’re trying to stop the war, which they aren’t. And again, I’m not saying they have to stop the war, I’m just analyzing things objectively.
I’m saying Putin can stop this war right now by going home. This is all Putins’ fault supported by oligarchs. It makes complete sense for putin to accept these terms, because he will eventually be forced to.
There are no oligarchs in Russia.
Words have meanings. An oligarch is someone who has political power through wealth.
Russia is an autocracy, and Putin allows people to be rich, so long as they don’t try to translate that into political power.
America has oligarchs, Russia just has rich people that contribute to an autocracy.
… I’m honestly not sure which is more evil as a political system.
I would say what is in the U.S. because there are more thorns that have to be removed from the rose.
The Ukrainian counter offensive stopped at a brick wall
What a bunch of Putin propagandistic nonsense.
Either Putin propagandists have now infiltrated mainstream liberal media or you have no clue regarding the state of the war, I’m going to go with the latter here
Up until about a week ago, this talking point was still current, but it’s time for a refresh.
They’re making slow progress constantly but the front lines are barely moving. There’s obviously a chance for a big break through as the first defences are always the heaviest and it should get easier after that, but there’s still a long way to go, and they’re both taking heavy casualties every single day.
The only actual progress being made is in destroying the equipment NATO managed to cobble together and losing trained manpower. Even if a miracle happened and Ukraine managed to make some breakthrough, what exactly is it going to be consolidated with given that they spent past three and a half months beating their head against a wall. They’ve already thrown in all the reserve brigades that were originally meant to come in and consolidate the gains now.
holy shit stop invading and leave? OUTRAGEOUS! the nerve of zelensky to ask for what is Ukraine’s! I think you should go join the trenches to show how mad you are!
Zelensky knowing that there wasn’t a hope in hell of Russians accepting this is false? You know it, I know it, we all know it. It’s just politics. Of course Zelensky has to offer something, even if he knows they won’t bite.
The Russians have to claw something out of this debacle to sue for peace. And I hope the Ukrainians give them nothing, and take back the Crimea while they’re at it.
Bad bot.
bots are at least logical
I mean, if Putin doesn’t want to die, he can always gobtje fuck home. I mean he can still suck a bag of dicks and then choke on them.
They’re basically asking Russia to stop the war and give back all the territory they occupied.
Yes.
Somehow I doubt that Russia will accept the outcome of the battlefield.
That’s because you don’t understand what the outcome on the battlefield will be, but you’ll see soon enough.
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I’m not saying it’s not going to happen but Russia would have to attack NATO first.
No one wants to attack a nuclear power if they don’t have to.
NATO directly fighting Russian troops in Ukraine would be a big deal and quite unlikely already if it somehow got to that.
Russians need to be kicked out of Ukraine but they need to kick out Putin out of Russia themselves.
Why
First, why would NATO risk escalation and bother losing troops when they can get Ukraine to do all the actual fighting?
How about DC?
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a view taking hold among Ukraine’s allies that the war is likely to go on for years
That’s been obvious since 2014, and since the full invasion of last year.
Alright Lavrov, grab a gun and get moving.
If any people deciding to go to wars had to really put their asses on the front lines the world would definitely be a peaceful place.
But as always, in both sides, only the poor working class is dying on the front line.
Those of all castes are fighting on the Ukrainian side.
Yes, of course, the working class in old western tanks and the rich and the politicians in their unicorns…
russia is running out of the poor though, weird who would have thought using human wave tactics would decimate a population…
The battlefield isn’t even being faught on the Ukrainian side using the most cutting edge of Western technology and you want to keep fighting? Holy shit.
I’d like to see that old fascist fucker on the front lines, to join the conscripts he’s sending to their deaths.
Trumps buddy is so brave 🤣
This sounds a lot like Hitler in the late 1930s (in the lead-up to World War 2).
Oh hey, remind us what this “peace plan” is exactly?
Caps on Russian oil price, restoration of original Ukraine borders, prosecution of Russian “war criminals”
It’s what you’d expect from a country that’s completely winning the war and not stuck in a stalemate while losing support
Yeah, it’s what you’d expect from a country that’s winning the war, and Ukraine is not winning the war while rapidly losing support as pretty much all western media admits now. A few recent examples for you:
- https://www.19fortyfive.com/2023/08/the-hard-reality-ukraines-last-gasp-offensive-has-failed/
- https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/23/western-criticism-blame-ukraine-failing-counter-offensive/
- https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-poland-central-europe-eastern-kyiv-baltics-zelenskyy-war-invasion/
- https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-21/ukraine-zelenskiy-under-pressure-as-allies-priorities-shift
- https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-09-24/ukraine-offensive-against-russia-is-too-slow-for-us-uk-and-eu
I was pointing out this obvious reality to some people on reddit a few weeks ago and I was called names. Here is how I came on this conclusion: Ukrainians were saying that whoever wins the battle of Bakhmut, will win the war. Then they proceeded to lose said battle and they were announcing to the enemy “Here we go, were coming, we are going to attack at this region anytime soon, please give weapons!” And everyone was like, “How dare you say that they are losing”. It’s like as if everyone forgot how to think for their own
It’s been pretty surreal to watch this unfold over the past year and a half. Every single prediction the west made about the direction of the war was proven to be completely wrong. Russian economy did not collapse, Russian military isn’t falling apart, Russia isn’t running out of weapons. Western weapons aren’t game changers, stingers, HIMARS, tanks, and missiles that the west sent were all proven to be useless in changing the direction of the war.
Yet, as we see in this thread, plenty of people in the west are refusing to do any reflection on the fact that the narrative we’re being sold is demonstrably false. They just latch on to whatever new hopium story western media puts out and just keep doubling down.
I just heard Tilly on the talking heads say that if Ukraine doesn’t prevail then there will be direct conflict between USA and Russia.
These are the people running the largest government/military in the world and I’m pretty damn sure all those Ukraine flags would disappear from peoples mailboxes when the bombs start falling in their back yards and their grandchildren are sent to die for a war no one can explain why we are in.
These people are dangerously unhinged and they’ve brought us to the brink of a nuclear holocaust. The fact that so many people in the west continue to cheer this on is frankly disturbing.
I understand that in every war there is propaganda on both sides in order to keep the morale high for the ones fighting. However there seems to be the case that the ones that make policy and push the propaganda fall victims of it and are being deluded into bad strategic decisions.
Right, we have a very narrow window of accepted viewpoints right now, and anybody who voices points that that don’t fit with the narrative ends up being sidelined. This creates an echo chamber where people just repeat the same talking points to each other even if they don’t agree with them because saying anything contrary would be career ending. A great example of this is how people like Jeffrey Sachs and John Mearsheimer are now only found on substack and random youtube channels. It’s impossible to make sound decisions without honest debate and without accepting facts as they actually are as opposed to as you want them to be.
It’s deeply ironic that the west prides itself on diversity of opinions that are considered. This is supposed to be one of the core strengths of the western system compared to “authoritarian” regimes like China. The reality turns out to be quite different.
And then we go ahead and criticize the Chinese for being authoritarian. People have not yet realized that democracy has diminished and that their so called rights are an illusion. So much for the west spreading “freedom and democracy”
Love how theres not a single link in the article to this ukie peace plan
Here you go: https://war.ukraine.ua/faq/zelenskyys-10-point-peace-plan/
Other than point 7 this looks rather reasonable. And in a good world 7 would also be reasonable, and plenty of american leaders would also be rotting in Hague. But we all know there’s no way that’s gonna happen without a revolution in Russia (and I guess the USA) – so there’s no way their current regime can accept that.
I wonder what is the motive behind first refusing to sign Minsk agreements, seconded by last year asking for a literal World War III, followed by making any agreements with Russia illegal, and now suddenly showing a golden change of heart by trying to cease war when Ukraine has admitted they cannot recruit more troops and all of NATO’s wunderwaffen has failed comically.
Could it be… that this is an admission of complete and utter defeat with no way back for Ukraine? Could it be that Zelensky fears his own life, for now he will be assassinated in any NATO country for all the debt accumulated as aid? Could it be that he has become an enemy of NATO countries’ citizens who hate him for inflation, Ukrainian citizens, Russia and most of Russia’s allies too?
You have smelled your own farts for way too long.
Stop revealing your personal fetishes here.
Speaking at a news conference at the United Nations on Saturday, the minister called a 10-point peace blueprint promoted by Kyiv “completely not feasible”.
Kyiv’s plan:
Energy security, with a focus on price restrictions on Russian energy resources
Restoring Ukraine’s territorial integrity and Russia reaffirming it according to the UN Charter
Withdrawal of Russian troops and the cessation of hostilities, the restoration of Ukraine’s state borders with Russia
Justice, including the establishment of a special tribunal to prosecute Russian war crimes
building security architecture in the Euro-Atlantic space, including guarantees for Ukraine.
What leverage does Ukraine think they have to institute such a blatantly pro-Ukraine peace resolution? Based on Ukraine’s proposed plan, you’d think they were at the sea of Azov and halfway to Moscow, rather than stuck in a few salients along the same frontline they were at a year ago.
Yes exactly, how dare a defending country propose a peace plan, the nerve of those Ukrainians wanting peace for Ukraine and fellow Ukrainians.
At this point the war is a stalemate. Given that, Ukraine’s requirements for peace are… well they don’t have the “war-score” to try for those options yet. TBH I don’t think they want peace without those requirements, and Russia isn’t beat enough to agree. So peace is just off the table for now. Which suggests it was never a serious offer anyway.
Whoops! Russia has lost. The only question is how much more will it lose. Believe for that reason? the peace offer is probably 100% serious, though I guess Ukraine could be planning some kind of trick.
This was is absolutely not at a stalemate. Ukraine just wasted their offensive capability and all the weapons they received in an offensive that failed to accomplish anything. If people seriously think that Russia isn’t going to go on an offensive of their own with the 400k troops they assembled, they’re in for a big surprise.
Ukraine did nothing of those things. Your addiction to Putin propaganda is just showing.
Putin propagandists must’ve infiltrated the highest echelons of liberal western media, because here’s what they’ve been saying
- https://www.19fortyfive.com/2023/08/the-hard-reality-ukraines-last-gasp-offensive-has-failed/
- https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/23/western-criticism-blame-ukraine-failing-counter-offensive/
- https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/08/18/ukraine-fail-counter-offensive-crimea/
- https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-poland-central-europe-eastern-kyiv-baltics-zelenskyy-war-invasion/
- https://www.economist.com/leaders/2023/09/21/ukraine-faces-a-long-war-a-change-of-course-is-needed
- https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/politik-gesellschaft/ending-the-war-by-a-negotiated-peace-li.417902
- https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-21/ukraine-zelenskiy-under-pressure-as-allies-priorities-shift
- https://www.politico.eu/article/ukraine-poland-central-europe-eastern-kyiv-baltics-zelenskyy-war-invasion/
- https://www.businessinsider.com/why-ukraines-air-defence-cant-cope-russias-rejigged-old-bombs-2023-9
- https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/09/23/the-russians-just-knocked-out-a-fifth-of-the-ukrainians-best-strv-122-tanks/
Your utter lack of understanding of the subject you’re opining on is just showing.
That’s not the point. The point is whether Ukraine’s peace plan makes sense in the context of the current situation in Ukraine. It doesn’t, and frankly it’s an indication that Ukraine really doesn’t want peace right now because they dont think they have the leverage to demand a fair peace.
Ukraine know well enough that if Putin gets anything from this war, the next one is just a few years away. If they were to ever give him the slightest bit of territory they’d get peace for a couple of years only. Why do people like you not understand this?
Then why have a peace blueprint in the first place? By your description, Ukraine has no reason whatsoever to ask for peace. Why propose a peace blueprint?
What the hell is a “peace blueprint”? Your russian translator not working correctly?
The comment you replied to also answers your question. If that answer isn’t satisfactory, please spell out why.
Russia is rapidly becoming a weak vassal state of China because of Ukraine. If that’s not leverage, I don’t know what is…the war is very stupid for Putin to continue.
The fact that Putin invaded Ukraine. Putin won’t leave, so Ukraine has to make them. This all fucking started when pussy Putin decided to be a little bitch. This whole war can end right now if Putin just fucks off and goes the fuck home.
So… What leverage does Ukraine have to make that happen?
The destruction of the Russian army and economy.
Seems like the opposite is happening
- https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-08/russia-sees-resilient-economy-despite-war-sanctions
- https://www.euronews.com/2023/09/23/germany-went-from-envy-of-the-world-to-the-worst-performing-major-developed-economy-what-h
- https://think.ing.com/snaps/eurozone-pmi-drops-again-in-june-confirming-weakness-in-economy/
- https://breakingdefense.com/2023/07/us-nato-weapons-stockpile-dangerously-low-usaf-general/
- https://www.economist.com/briefing/2023/09/21/western-help-for-ukraine-is-likely-to-diminish-next-year
Restoring Ukraine’s territorial integrity and Russia reaffirming it according to the UN Charter
That includes Crimea, apparently. Good luck with that.
Well it’s not really a negotiation, it’s a country defending its borders. What do you expect, uh ok you can have half our country and some of our women?
