I can’t stop you from breaking the whole system when you try to configure something and you do it wrong 😅
That’s the burden of assuming the operator is a person capable of understanding the consequences of their actions.
looks at the camera
tbf you can do that on windows too, but there’s fewer ways to do it, and fewer ways to fix it, so someone else will have fucked up the same way previously and posted about it online somewhere, and system restore points are enabled by default 😅
There are increasingly many guard rails, like a warning when you do “rm -rf .” in many systems, for example. It’s just that they are only guard rails, not walls. You can ignore them.
Linux really doesn’t get bragging rights for “install[ing] old applications”. Linux ironically has been somewhat better for me than Windows for running older Windows applications thanks to WINE, but when it comes to installing old Linux applications, even when I wasn’t on a rolling release distro, it’s been a total crapshoot.
If, for example, there’s a native Linux game that hasn’t been updated in a few years, my experience buying it has generally been hoping the Linux version works, it doesn’t, and I’m stuck running it through WINE.
PCSX2 1.6.0, which used wxWidgets, released May 2020, and even five years after that, opening it on Linux shows you a frozen, unusable window that you have to manually kill. (citing PCSX2 because it’s a use case of mine as a contributor.) IIIRC, on Windows, you can straight-up go back to versions from like 2010 and still have them work.
The linux way to handle it is with a
chroot. Used to do this back in the day to get 32bit libraries on a 64bit distro that didn’t include 32bit libraries.chrootis the basis for modern containerization technologies. These days, I usually use it for bleeding edge application builds that don’t have a build for my distro, yet. Distrobox makes it pretty simple. With distrobox, you can install the application you need in the OS that supports the application you want, then just map the binary into your OS.See here: https://distrobox.it/useful_tips/#export-to-the-host
Isn’t that functionally what a flatpak is?
Same concept. Flatpak is based on bubblewrap, which was based off another tool that was based on chroot.
Edit: Looks like Flatpak is working towards adopting a different (newer) feature that allows some containerization features at the user level, without requiring chroot super user level.
Just fyi containers use
pivot_rootnotchrootI’m aware. I said, “basis”, not “uses”.
The reason this is a problem is that devs think they need to save 10MB of RAM by dynamically linking libc instead of statically compiling it or just including the blob with the game.
Puritans on Linux are a real menace. Every time someone calls an OS install image of 3-4gb “bloated” I want to scream uncontrollably. Not statically linking stuff is part of this cultural issue.
Flatpak might solves these issues in the long run. Of course the same people therefore hate it, because it’s “bloated” and “convoluted”.
<rant> How dare we have different versions of the same lib! Where will we end up, like MS Windows? Where I can boot up apps as old as myself? Outrageous! Not my precious mibibytes!). </rant>
What, you don’t like role-playing software development & distribution as if we were still in the 90s?? 🥺🥺 /j
But srs, most of Linux’s biggest technical problems are either caused by cultural legacy or blocked by it. The distribution model being one of the most pungent examples.
Fortunately we do have a steady influx of new people incl. those who demand shit to god damn work, finally shifting this notion.
For the time being we still have to resort to using the Windows version and Wine for old software though… But I already had the situation where the (unmaintained but working) app also had a Flatpak which was last updated many years ago and it just worked, which made me incredibly happy and hopeful. ❤️
Good thing there’s a battle-proven response if people don’t like this because it’s “not what Linux is supposed to be” or some other nonsense: If you don’t like it just fork it yourself. 😚
Fortunately we do have a steady influx of new people incl. those who demand shit to god damn work, finally shifting this notion.
What the hell is going on in this thread? Linux has been being actively developed by people who want “shit to god damn work” forever. What are the concrete examples of things that don’t work? Old games? Is that the problem here? These things that were developed for the locked in Windows ecosystem since time immemorial and never ran on Linux and now, through all of the work of the Linux ecosystem, do, by some miracle, run on Linux. It’s amazing that these things work at all: they were never intended to!
What the hell is going on in this thread? Linux has been being actively developed by people who want “shit to god damn work” forever.
Yes and no. Yes as in “you can fix it” (if you’re a programmer), but no in terms of “everything is set up so binaries will still run in 20 years as-is”. Dependency hell, missing library versions, binaries being linked against old glibc versions you can’t provide… all of these are known issues, and devs are often being discouraged from compiling tools in a way that makes them work forever (since that makes the app bigger and potentially consume more memory). And better don’t tell someone who’s blind (and used Linux before) what’s quoted above, they’ll either laugh at you or get really angry. It’s also one of the reasons I’m angry (I’m able to see, but I hate this hypocrisy in the community). Linux on desktop utterly alienated disabled people, simply because stuff like screenreaders keep breaking.
Running 20 year old binaries is not the primary use case and it is very manageable if you actually want to do that. I’ve been amazed at some completely ancient programs that I’ve been able to run, but I don’t see any reason a 20 year old binary should “just work”, that kind of support is a bit silly. Instead maybe we should encourage abandonware to not be abandonware? If you’re not going to support your project, and that project is important to people, provide the source. I don’t blame the Linux developers for that kind of thing at all.
devs are often being discouraged from compiling tools in a way that makes them work forever (since that makes the app bigger and potentially consume more memory)
This is simply not true. If you want your program to be a core part of a distribution, yes, you must follow that distribution’s packaging and linking guidelines: I’m not sure what else a dev would expect. There is no requirement that your program be part of a distribution’s core. Dynamic linking isn’t some huge burden holding everyone back and I have absolutely no idea why anyone would pretend it is. If you want to static link go for it? There is literally nothing stopping you.
Linux desktop isn’t actively working against disabled people, don’t be obtuse. There is so much work being done for literally no money by volunteers and they are unable to prioritize accessibility. That’s unfortunate but it’s not some sort of hypocritical alienation. That also has likely very little to do with the Linux kernel ABI stability like you claimed earlier.
But this idea that “finally we have people that want Linux to work” is infuriating. Do you have any idea how much of an uphill battle it has been to just get WiFi working on Linux? That isn’t because the volunteer community is lazy and doesn’t want things to work: that’s because literally every company is hostile to the open source community to the point of sometimes deliberately changing things just to screw us over. The entitlement in that statement is truly infuriating.
I really think its just not that common. There are ways to do this for the few and not pollute the OS for the many. Steam does it for their use case. If it were a more common of a need, then I would expect distro maintainers to take care of it. The same way they did for 32bit libraries back in the day. When is the last time you had to install a 32bit distro along side your 64bit distro so you could run 32bit applications? Sometimes I need a bleeding edge build of an application. I run a stable distro. So build the application myself or install a quick chroot These days there is distrobox that makes it even easier. There are solutions. Easy from my perspective. That’s why I think, if this was such a common need, distro maintainers would provide a simple solution (automatically done for you).
But you can do that: Linux provides a ton of ways to use different versions of the same lib. The distro is there to provide a solid foundation, not be the base for every single thing you want to run. The idea is you get a core usable operating system and then do whatever you want on top of that.
Yeah, ten apps on the machine should be enough for anybody.
This hasn’t been a problem for a decade or two, but I see drive costs inflate immensely, I wonder how it will impact how “bloat” is processed. Not everyone has infinite access to storage. BTRFS and other fs dedup features may be an acceptable work around, but I don’t know flatpacks structure enough to know if they can benefit from it.
usually the solution is recompiling it, LD_PRELOADing older libraries or using chroot. Since linus never breaks userspace this can actually provide 100% compatibility.
Yeah, I found quite a few games that I had to go in and specify it re-download and use Proton because the Linux native build was borked.
In a lot of cases devs will export for Linux but not test it.
Which reminds me. Hotline Miami has a native Linux build, yet I had to install a few more libs to get it to work. The funniest part is that this was a GOG installer, so it should have had the libs built in. If I downloaded the Windows installer and used it with Wine, I wouldn’t have ran into this problem.
Another problem is with some but not all Unity games. I don’t remember what the other one was, but HuniePop’s Linux build would be skipping frames, and the Windows build would run just as intended.
It’s then I learned to stick to Windows versions of games even if they got a Linux version. Besides, I can send these installers to actual Windows devices.
The updates are unwelcome because currently the updates remove desirable functionality while adding unwanted functionality. If they removed the ads and AI, they might actually stop the bleeding.
A serious software company offers separate update channels for feature updates and security updates. But not Microsoft. They don’t offer the bread and the shit separately. You have to eat the whole shit sandwich.
A serious software company wouldn’t be forcing their paid users to accept AI content mining under threat of lost security updates.
Remove le French at once I say!!
What a nice way to say
sudo rm -fr /You can tell it’s sudo by the “I say!!” at the end :).
Linux is a lot like a duck with teeth.
and a good firm swirly penis
Just they way the good lord intended, swirly.
i’ve used linux and i got to say it’s gotten way better than it was a few years ago. most of the stuff works and only had to troubleshoot like a few times
Also, troubleshooting in Linux is different than on Windows. Every time I had to fix a problem with my Linux system I walked away smarter than before. I learned a bit more about how my computer works, so in total it was a slightly positive experience for me.
But anytime I had to troubleshoot my Windows computer it was because Microsoft fucked something up. Fixing Windows feels like wasted time to me, because you never know when they will break it again.
But anytime I had to troubleshoot my Windows computer
"Hi, my name is Gilbert from Microsoft Support volunteer program! Please try the following and report back:
- Uninstall all drivers, reboot, reinstall all drivers.
- Reinstall all your hardware by re-seating it.
- Delete and recreate your user account.
- Run chkdsk.
- IP config for no real reason but hey text output feels like progress.
- a dozen other steps. . .
- Completely reformat and reinstall Windows.
…And let us know if that fixes the issue!"
I’m convinced I would need to do a lot more troubleshooting on windows nowadays. Just turning off all the AI is probably a pain in the ass.
i constantly have to troubleshoot my linux computers, but still less than my windows laptop, which is a pain to even boot up
On Linux you can indeed install old apps. You will just need to spend few hours doing so… or use Flatpak I guess.
I use Debian GNU/Linux ftw.
The only old software I’ve installed worked fine but I also compiled it myself. Which was quick because of the comparatively small codebases.
If your old piece of software is not available through Flatpak, you can use DistroBox to run your app inside a container with older Debian/Ubuntu.
One of the levels this joke works on is that ducks and dogs and fish and birds are all among the best adapter to their own niche.
Some people just need what Microslop, Apple or Google aree peddling, at some moments.
Another way the joke works is because Linux is still the best, for anyone with a choice. Lol.
Wanna remove the only way to boot into the computer? Go ahead, you are in control. But sure hope you have a baxkup boot loader somewhere lol
deleted by creator
“primalmotion, I’m afraid I can’t do that”
“sudo go kill yourself, you smarmy little shit”
Linux distros: 🫡
Oh Windows did mess with me a gazillion times in 2000s, when I was a poor kid with just one HDD, and tried to dual boot.
The amount of times that me as a teenager had to call the computer shop after the OS being unusable because I was messing around was insane. They eventually just gave me the pirated copies of everything so I could reinstall stuff on my own. I really don’t miss the times of using windows and the constant reinstalls and breakage it had.
Wanna remove the only way to boot into the computer?
That example is particularly on point, since I’ve done it (removed the boot bits - oops!) for a few of these, and each time I used a Linux Live boot CD to recover.
Even if I needed some other tool to repair things, the Linux Live CD went in first to do some backups.
Just don’t do that then
The funny thing is that the biggest practical benefit to most Linux users is not the access to do these things.
It is the secondary effects of not needing to restrict access in order to preserve lock-in and enshittification. It makes the whole user experience better because it is only doing wider you’ve asked it to do. For example, I apply updates more quickly on Linux than I ever did on Windows, even though my Linux DEs are way less pushy about it, because the process is an absolute breeze!
Look at each OS option like you were a product development team, and think “who are my stakeholders?”
The commercial products have long lists of what’s driving the product features and anti-features. Linux has the developers who want the code to be helpful and stay free, and the users who want it to do what it says on the tin, with the option to audit or modify the system’s code. But of course it’s still run by humans, so big personalities and bad actors and whatnot do affect things.
You can add to the dog “I support a global a global human trafficking and child rape network.”
Moreso than the Apple dude?
Is Tim Apple in the Epstein files? I hadn’t seen that he was. Just giving baby a prize for being a baby.
Edit: it’s a real question, has anyone seen Tim Cook in there? Jobs wasn’t IIRC.
oh just you watch me delete system files on my rooted android
And now your bank app doesn’t work.
it works quite well actually. even got tap to pay!
And other people get to use my bank account as well. Paying is so much easier, when I’m not even involved with it. \s I don’t know much about rooted android, isn’t it less secure?
skavau is a clown
Obscurething.so not found. You can’t get it either, it’s unmaintained and doesn’t work with anything anymore.
Linux has this problem too. Stop pretending it doesn’t. Everything sucks for different reasons. You are choosing the trades you are willing to make.
Yes. Linux can be frustrating too.
Your post history indicates you’re pushing Linux in some (very!) interesting directions, and impatient for it to work. Linux is (usually) free, and free Linux solutions do move at the pace of free.
I get it, it can be frustrating.
It comes across as entitled to be angry at others for enjoying how nice a stock install of Linux Mint can be, while you’re fighting to get Steam to recognize controllers on headless Fedora.
Heck, I haven’t seen a headless release of Mac or Windows in almost 30 years? I guess I could get my hands on a relatively new headless Windows Server edition meant for automated testing…maybe?
I’m curious if there’s a community doing what you’re doing on some other OS? It all sounds fascinating, honestly. Any links to resources would be welcome.
Anyway. What you’re up to sounds hard and interesting! I hope you will share your solutions with the community!
Linux is a community, and when you’re doing something really interesting, there may not be many members of the community doing the same thing, yet.
Lots of people surf the web and check email, and yes, we’re having a moment, because many versions of Linux are really nice for surfing the web and checking email, finally.
Oh I get that but those struggles are intentional and self-inflicted. I wanted a puzzle. I got a puzzle. The community can help guide me in directions when I need an assist.
The thing about Linux that sort of makes it a monkeys paw is it is incredibly versatile. It doesn’t have a direct path to a specific goal. It doesn’t get locked down with corporate bullshit some pinhead business major has decided you will love because it makes their line go up. It can be built into literally anything you want it to be.
But with options and versatility comes complexity. So Linux lets you do anything, but you have to know what you are doing. You can and will break things as you learn. And it will piss you off along the way. But that’s also the joy. If it does something I don’t like, it’s because I told it to, and that means I can also tell it not to.
Windows does something you don’t like? Well, have you tried buying majority shares of Microsoft?
Mac does something you don’t like? No, you can’t have that opinion because there’s so many PC fanboys mocking what they do right that actual Mac users dismiss real criticisms of the platform as haterade so there are never enough consequences for Apple to motivate change or even recognition.
You can delay Windows updates up to 30 days at a time, and do that indefinitely. Or just black hole the update server in your hosts file to disable updates entirely.
There are also ways to not download updates until a certain amount of time after their release, and then to give yourself something like two weeks before it auto installs during a period when the computer is not in active use.
I haven’t had an update happen unexpectedly since Vista.
And lets be real, do we really want to just let the average chucklefuck run around with insecure shit? There’s an element of protecting people from themselves going on here as well.
The point is there shouldn’t have to be a work around, reg hack or host file modification. I should be allowed to do with my computer what I want. I agree it should be on by default, but, there should be an easy no/off switch.
I think they should not push updates that constantly break shit and introduce AI into everything, maybe then people would not mind the windows updates.
But where’s the fun in that, right? Gotta get people to switch to Linux somehow and I appreciate their effort.Almost all of the settings are a simple on off switch. Group policy and the settings menu. Both are easily navigatible GUIs with clear descriptions of what the switches do. You only have to go the hosts file route if you want the extreme of completely disabling updates.
I work in sysadmin in a Windows environment. I haven’t had to touch the registry (for Windows configuration, we won’t talk about dumbass software devs) in over four years, and it was only because I didn’t check group policy first.
Please, for the love of all that is worthwhile in this world, don’t lecture others on the ease or difficulty of configuring systems if you aren’t actually familiar with how to configure those systems.
Linux needs to be a Canadian goose. Those cobra chickens are just fine when you let them do their thing and ignore all the shit left behind cause you’re not sure it’s important to the planet, but the moment you start to mess with it and you don’t know what you’re doing they will fuck you up!
