They’ve already banned menthol in California and it did nothing. Alternatives are already being marketed and sold and some of the better ones recreate the exact same effect but cost $1.20 more per pack at the low end. To put it simply, this is dumb as fuck.
The point is to make cigarettes as expensive and unappealing as possible.
That’s not in anyone’s own interests. Smokers have to pay more, tobacco industry gets more money. Literally a lose-lose. Dumb. As. Fuck.
That’s not how capitalism works. If the tobacco industry could raise prices and get more money today, they would. Since they haven’t, you have to assume that any increased taxes or burden on them will reduce their profits.
Yes, it might increase prices to the end consumer, because the demand curve will change when the costs change. But that doesn’t mean the tobacco industry is making any more money. If it did, they would already charge more.
Wrong. Prohibition increases demand.
Edit: Based off some replies, I think a lot of people are forgetting some rudimentary aspects of the concept of “demand”, so allow me to help:
Demand is an economic concept that relates to a consumer’s desire to purchase goods and services and willingness to pay a specific price for them.
When supply decreases, the price of the good increases. Inversely, when the supply of the good increases, the price falls
putting a tax on something is not the same as prohibiting it.
Go ahead and look at the post title
go ahead and look at the comment you were replying to
Prohibition has no net effect on demand, it simply enables black markets. Alcohol use after Prohibition was not higher than pre-prohibition, but did rise to the same levels fairly quickly.
Incorrect. Prohibition decreases supply. Supply and demand have an inverse relationship. This is economics 101.
There exists no accurate data of consumption during prohibition because it was a black market.
Supply and demand do not have an inverse relationship. Demand exists, and when supply exceeds demand, prices fall. When supply does not meet demand, prices rise. You understand they are related but forgot the actual curve on the graph. Supply and demand can both be low, for instance, as is the case with mega yachts. Supply and demand have no direct effect on one another, though low supply does tend to encourage firms to increase supply to try to compete and meet the demand.
Data during prohibition is irrelevant to this specific discussion, because your claim is that demand goes up when goods are prohibited, which is false, as I showed with my link
I don’t believe you have actually taken Econ 101, given the things Ive seen you say here.
Don’t ban them, tax them.
This way smokers have to pay more so the demand will decrease, tobacco industry gets less money, and the economic burden on public health and environment can be financed with the additional tax income.
Addicts will always find a way to justify their addiction. Price of smokes goes up? Welp, looks like Ol Johnny Blacklungs is going to buy less food this month.
Okay so here we are speculating about this, but there’s data on this isn’t there? Is it not the case that countries who tax tobacco more have all but eliminated it? I’m not well versed on the subject, but I think it’s a bit silly to just pull this out of your ass as if it were fact. Here’s a link to an ncbi article that talks about it. I’m sure there’s plenty more out there to show one way or the other, so I’m interested to know whether you have anything to back up your stance.
Sure, and I agree that this should be approached with scepticism and not blind bias.
I’m basing this off tobacco being the third most addictive substance on the planet.
Being that dependent on a substance suggests that practical decision-making and rational thinking, such as adding motivation to quit through price, is certainly not going to be the most effective way to reduce dependency while also further harming those that fail to break their dependency.
Edit: Also I just want to point out, again, that I was never referring to tax. From what I saw there’s not enough conclusive data for me to form an opinion one way or the other on the effectiveness of increasing tobacco tax . All of my comments are about this ridiculously assanine ban, or the increased prices that come as a result of this ban.
This is effectively a Pigouvian tax, and will absolutely keep some people from smoking.
Also higher prices do not necessarily mean the industry is making more money. Far more likely, given the saturation of competition, that they simply cost more to make.
Thanks for your opinion.
This is not an expression of an opinion. These are statements of fact. As in our other discussion, I am simply explaining things to you.
You not liking these facts does not make them less true.
Then where’s your data?
Would you like a citation on what Pigouvian taxes are, how the cigarette industry is flooded with competition, or that putting further regulations on products makes them more expensive to produce?
I assumed you could Google any of these but I can do it for you. Fair warning, you’ll be getting a “let me Google that for you” link.
Not one of these facts is even remotely controversial so my mind is a bit boggled that you’d even try to contest any of them
What do you mean? The more people have to pay in order to smoke the less people will smoke.
There’s a reason why people tend to hit rock bottom before they finally kick their drug addiction. If they don’t have the means, they will attempt to find it. Your logic is flawed, and only serves to disproportionately impair the poor while bolstering the very industry you fight.
I don’t fight, and I am pretty sure the focus is too reduce new users. How the fuck do you hit rock bottom solely on nicotine?
How the fuck do you hit rock bottom solely on nicotine?
Tobacco, the main ingredient in cigarettes, is more addictive than meth. If you can imagine somebody hitting rock bottom on meth then it should be easy enough to wrap your head around it. Especially when cigarettes contain added chemicals to make it more addictive than tobacco alone.
Also, I would be inclined towards believing that the habit is mostly spread through peers. Price as a barrier to entry wouldn’t be effective at preventing peer pressure if they’re your first supplier.
I call bullshit on that. Not to meantion the danger of meth is the physically damage it causes starting from the very first dose.
Already banned where I live.
They now sell cigarettes with hollow filters in which a separately sold tiny filter fits, which is infused with menthol.
“According to the American Lung Association, the use of menthol cigarettes is highest among Black, brown and LGBTQ+ communities. Medical groups like the American Lung Association have long advocated for menthol cigarettes to be banned because they can make it easier to start smoking and disproportionately affect minority communities.”
Gonna save the minorities from the opression of racism and homophobia by specifically targeting them with a ban.
I’ve never really understood references to “the left eating itself” until I hit that paragraph. The absolute irony of the anti racist/homophobe sentiment being so overtly racist/homophobic kinda made the light bulb come on.
This adverse thing is adverse, so in order to reduce adversity among minorities, we’ll target the specific option they tend towards… to reduce discrimination against them, by discriminating their specific choice. Discriminating against them… to reduce discrimination…
And then you publish that shit? That’s kinda fucked IMHO.
Huh I mean I get what you’re saying but can’t we just take this potential win? I’m a cancer survivor and it just seems weird to complain about legislation that will reduce cancer. Menthol cigarettes just make it easier to get cancer than plain ones. That’s how I see this. Just because minorities and lgbtq are more likely to use them doesn’t mean it’s racist.
Nah, this ban accomplishes absolutely nothing except producing more expensive alternatives that do the exact same thing.
I’m glad you survived your battle, but this ban would only serve to disproportionately affect the poor.
Ahh thanks for sharing. You’re probably right then. And thanks :)
You’re both very welcome and a class act. It’s no small feat to kick cancer’s ass. Lol
Thanks so much! All thanks to my anonymous stem cell donor via BeTheMatch! Other treatments didn’t work before that and this person saved my life.
How do menthols make it easier to get cancer than regular smokes? Genuinely asking btw
Menthol makes it easier to start smoking, to continue being a smoker for longer than the person would have done otherwise, and to smoke more, because it makes smoking less irritating and tastes better. You are correct in that the menthol molecule itself is not a carcinogen.
No it doesn’t. It’s purely a preference. There are tons of smokers who can’t stand menthols but love regular cigarettes. I even know someone who smokes menthols because he said it makes people less likely to bum cigarettes off of him.
I even know someone who smokes menthols because he said it makes people less likely to bum cigarettes off of him.
That’s why I switched to menthols back when I smoked. That, and I just liked them more. I didn’t like the ultra menthol ones like Kools or Benson & Hedges, but Marlboro Milds were just about perfect, and the amount of “Oh…those are menthol? Nevermind” was the cherry on top.
Yeah this is what I meant!
Menthol cigarettes are what are consumed by teens as well. Banning the sale of them is a restriction on teen smoking.
It’s racist to ban menthols? “The left eating itself”? Go touch grass.
It’s racist to specifically target a type favored by minorities if your intent is to target minorities, and the stated intent is specifically to target minorities with a ban… ironically, to protect them from being discriminated against by their chosen type of cigarettes.
They published that… they very publicly are saying that they’re going to protect these minorities by directly targeting them with a ban. It’s not me saying it’s a racist/homophobic ban, it’s the published premise itself. The entire basis of the ban is published as being to keep cigarettes from affecting blacks, browns, and LGBTQ+ people by eliminating their preferred type.
How on earth are there people who don’t understand this? Are you so tied to the politics that you cannot or will not see this objectively? It’s blatant.
Targeting something based on race and minority status is not necessarily racism. That’s kind of a bizarre jump.
The groups being targeted with the ban are, coincidentally, the groups for whom smoking rates are highest.
If you want to have the biggest impact, it makes sense to target the groups that are A) the majority of smokers and B) those least well-protected against starting smoking by current initiatives.
FWIW I’m against this ban on pure “people should be allowed to do what they want” grounds, but your specific angle of attack seems ill-informed.
It’s not a false analogy, it’s just brutally logical and completely disregards the merits of the situation…
Logging is the deadliest occupation on earth. Banning minorities from the logging industry would greatly improve their odds of survival. It’s exactly the same as banning their chosen cigarettes.
I don’t really have a preference on tobacco bans at all tbh. I do think people should have options, but I don’t disagree with the intent of smoking bans either… the issue here is, it’s not a choice between those two for everyone, it’s a selective ban that removes the options from a singular group, and the selection is based on race and orientation.
The merits of the ban are, in my opinion, not all that relevant. I don’t disagree with banning cigarettes entirely, I don’t disagree with onerous taxation as an incentive to reduce sales, I don’t object to any measures that are indiscriminate, because I don’t really care that much tbh, I switched to vapes in 2012.
I object to the specificity.
From another perspective, were talking about a ban on tobacco that selectively preserves tobacco use for straight white people… does that make it more clear why I object?
brutally logical
No it’s totally unrelated to the discussionl. I think your objection is very poorly thought out.
I used to smoke menthols and I’m white as the driven snow my man. Nothing racist about targeting the cigarettes preferred by the people who are majority smokers by percentage.
I also think “this doesn’t effect me so I don’t care” is a poor way of looking at governance.
Okay, I’m touching grass. Now what? It’s not doing anything and is boring.
So I totally forgot about this but, they banned them in Illinois and they just… They’re still there, no one around me has stopped selling them
There’s a story every couple years that the FDA has banned them. But I guess I never see the follow up where it doesn’t work.
“We’re making an effort, see?”
In 5 years:
Studies show menthol cigarette consumption has remained the same.
I do not trust they will handle this without corruption meddling laws and loopholes.
Canada has outright banned the sale of menthol cigarettes. You cannot buy them in Canada.
Glad to to hear that. Lemme know when the US is matched with Canada in terms of corruption. Also, let me know what happened to spicy skittles. They made them for a year and stopped entirely. They were fucking good, man. It sounds weird, and that’s why it was a Halloween thing, but they were good. Spicy, then sweet. I fucking loved them. And they ripped them away from me. Why?
Even in “Indian reserve”?
Yes. Indian Tobacco do not have a menthol option.
Sue Dillion needs to make some calls
They should have just banned all cigarettes, stinky discusting things!
Good
LOL @ everyone in the comments
“bAnNiNg MeNtHoLs Is RaCiSt!”
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So if we ban minorities from the logging industry, that’s the opposite of racism? It’s the deadliest occupation on earth…
Fisherman, truck drivers, roofers… ban minorities from all of it to save their lives, because that’s the opposite of racism.
See the flaw in the logic here? Targeting a demographic is, by the simplest definition, an act of racism. Equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome. Banning minorities from entire industries would be to their ultimate benefit, and is obviously racist. Like Jim Crow obvious.
Your point is very problematical.
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What how
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The bigot continues to spread misinformation and bigotry.
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Banning drugs or alcohol has never worked. The demand will still be there. People will turn to the black market instead if it gets banned.
There is a whole arc in the Battlestar Galactica reboot series that masterfully illustrates this topic.
Yeah, which is why illegal drugs have more users than legal drugs (alcohol and tobacco). Except they don’t.
Their argument was that banning cigarettes wouldn’t eliminate their use, only drive people to continue doing it through other methods.
What does your comment have to do with that…? Nobody said there would somehow be more users than before, just that people would continue doing it…
My argument is that since illegal drugs have significantly fewer users, prohibition does reduce usage.
That logic doesn’t flow, though. You need to compare number of current illegal users vs number of users before it was illegal.
Have you heard of the US prohibition on alcohol? It’s a pretty famous counterexample to your argument showing that it absolutely does not reduce usage.
The same number of people, as a percentage, smoke marijuana as smoke cigarettes. Marijuana use is federally illegal and illegal in most states.
So no, it really doesn’t reduce usage. Price and perceived risk are the two factors that reduce usage the most.
I don’t know about the USA, but I see tobacco smokers every day and very rarely see marijuana smokers.
Most people smoking weed aren’t just doing it out in the open like tobacco users
Fuck you.
I spent half my life legally smoking tobacco and illegally smoking weed.
I moved a quarter of a country away for the mental health of legally smoking tobacco and legally smoking weed.
I WILL NOT be dragged back into a life where one of my vices give me crippling fear of imprisonment.
Get off your fucking high horse. Mind your own fucking business. Stop asserting your will over others. Live your own fucking life. Let me live my fucking life.
Seriously.
Stop.
Just stop.
Prohibition is horse shit.
Stop supporting prohibition.
I don’t think this person means criminalize use of cigarettes to be fair.
They would criminalize tobacco production and smuggling and there would 100*% be a black market.
Think of it more like a safety standard - prevent the sales of variations doing the most harm to public health
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Leave it to Lemmyists to downvote a comment saying that you shouldn’t be allowed to force other people to breathe poisonous smoke.
Come to Colorado! If it’s worth legalization, we are all about it.
(One of my post-legalization projects…)
There’s already too many people in Colorado.
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I’m glad I live in a country with universal healthcare. Your point is made completely erroneous by the fact that everyone’s taxes are paying for your cancer treatment. This “fuck you i’ll do what i want” mentality is literally antisocial conservative garbage.
Or, how about we let people put whatever they want into their own body?
Because of the children, won’t someone think of the children?!
They already aren’t allowed to smoke!
But parents are allowed to expose them to the smoke.
Do we need to ban everything that a shitty parent might not be able to keep away from their kids?
Why not expand the definition of child abuse to include these things instead of punishing people who are never around kids?
Why not expand the definition of child abuse to include these things instead of punishing people who are never around kids?
That sounds like a great idea, but it’s going to be impossible to enforce.
Tell that to all the smokers trying to quit who wish their younger self had not started in the first place.
Vape for the same effect. I don’t want to choke on what you’re putting in your body.
Normally I’d agree, but cigarettes in particular are a product that is designed to be as addictive as possible with a laundry list of negative health impacts and virtually zero positive ones. Combine that with the fact that you aren’t just putting it in your body but the body of anyone within breathing distance of you, there’s a strong case to be made for banning them outright.
Put it another way, if cigarettes are legal then marijuana, LSD, MDMA, and a whole host of other drugs should be legal too.
Put it another way, if cigarettes are legal then marijuana, LSD, MDMA, and a whole host of other drugs should be legal too.
Yes. Yes they should.
Fuck prohibition.
Prohibition=Oppression.
Combine that with the fact that you aren’t just putting it in your body but the body of anyone within breathing distance of you,
That’s part of responsible use. I’m ok with only letting smokers smoke in specialty ventilated & filtered areas. Easy for me to say, I don’t smoke. But if any adult wants to make an informed decision to, that should be their choice.
Put it another way, if cigarettes are legal then marijuana, LSD, MDMA, and a whole host of other drugs should be legal too.
I emphatically agree.
Bruh, you know tobacco is a plant. Right?
Alcohol needs so much work to be made.
Tobacco is a plant.
Just like weed.
So’s hemlock, what’s your point?
That noone “made it” the way it is, and if dudes gonna smoke a plant, let dude smoke a plant.
Cigarettes != tobacco. Tobacco is an ingredient in cigarettes, and not the only one, not by a long shot. Literally dozens of additives are included in cigarettes, many of which are designed to make them more addictive.
Secondly, modern tobacco absolutely was “made” the way it is, first through selective breeding and then genetic modification to (among other things) increase Nicotine content. Much in the same way that modern weed is far stronger than the stuff grown 50 years ago, so too is tobacco.
Maybe they could just regulate what they put in them instead? Good tobacco is pretty tasty and not insanely addictive. Why not just basically put them in legacy mode?
They’ve already hit a crazy stride with vapes. Maybe they could do a 5-10 year plan where the clean it up while also gaining the foothold that they have with younger people?
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So if some can’t enjoy something responsibly, no one can?
Wtf is 3rd hand smoke?
The theory that when you smoke, the nicotine binds to surfaces the smoke touches, causing cancer to anyone who comes near surfaces that nicotine has touched.
It was a “truth” run around in the 80s as we were discovering the nature of radiation, so lots of war on drug “research” papers got published functionally saying nicotine and radiation are the same thing.
Can’t tell if you are joking or just that stupid.
Ok, I’ll bite. Why is banning only menthols racist?
Because African American smokers tend to favor menthol over other types of cigarettes.
“In the 1950s, less than 10% of Black smokers used menthol cigarettes. Today, after decades of tobacco industry targeting, that number is 85%. Menthol cigarettes continue to be heavily advertised, widely available and priced cheaper in Black communities."
https://www.tobaccofreekids.org/what-we-do/industry-watch/menthol-report
Because it’s doing the most harm to the most harmed demographic?
Black people tend to primarily smoke menthol, disproportionate to other races. I’m too lazy to link, but you can Google it and find studies pretty easily.
It’s why this same prohibition measure has failed in many legislative bodies many times.
This apparently is an objectionable point to bring up… not sure if your downvotes are the “all or nothing” aspect, or the spotlighting of the blatant racist aspect, but it seems people don’t want to see this at face value :/
I’m with you though. The selective targeting is wrong. Equal ban or no ban is the right position to take IMHO.
I down voted it because I don’t think the government should ban substances. Not cigarettes, not alcohol, not marijuana, not psychedelics, and probably not a bunch of other drugs too. The government’s job is not to play mommy and daddy for a nation of adults. Our citizens are entirely too eager to strip away their own liberty these days.
I agree with that.
The specific ban in question on this particular post isn’t a general matter though… it’s targeting minorities…
That kinda makes it a moot point in my opinion on wether or not prohibition is appropriate in general, because regardless of where you fall on the matter of bans or liberties, the specificity of the intended targets is wildly inappropriate, because it’s racist/homophobic, so I kinda disregarded the last point they made entirely :)
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It aint racist my guy. The chemical processes involved in menthol cigarettes increase the carcinogenic properties of the cig.
Yes, no shit cigs are bad. Menthol cigs are the worst offenders.
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https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna42237299
Edit: lol stay mad
