…because VPNs obscure a user’s true location, and because intelligence agencies presume that communications of unknown origin are foreign, Americans may be inadvertently waiving the privacy protections they’re entitled to under the law…
…VPNs might protect you against garden-variety criminals, but the intentional commingling of origin/destination points by VPNs could turn purely domestic communications into “foreign” communications the NSA can legally intercept (and the FBI, somewhat less-legally can dip into at will)…
Certainly the NSA isn’t concerned about “incidental collection.” It’s never been too concerned about its consistent “incidental” collection of US persons’ communications and data in the past and this isn’t going to budge the needle, especially since it means the NSA would have to do more work to filter out domestic communications and the FBI would be less than thrilled with any efforts made to deny it access to communications it doesn’t have the legal right to obtain on its own.
Since the government won’t do this, it’s up to the general public, starting with everyone sharing the contents of this letter with others. VPNs can still offer considerable security benefits. But everyone needs to know that domestic surveillance is one of the possible side effects of utilizing this tech.
Oh nooo, we won’t be protected by the law they can’t be arsed to follow anyway? Whatever will I do when they surveil my encrypted VPN traffic?
Store now, decrypt later. Make sure your VPN is using quantum-safe encryption algorithms with perfect forward secrecy. They are storing ALL traffic that goes outside the country (probably domestic traffic too, realistically).
Don’t you think that would take too much storage space?
They can probably use heuristics to keep the 0.1% most interesting traffic (eg traffic that flows towards servers that isn’t too large, that’d catch everything you send to your bank without breaking the budget to store)
Wonder how many individual encrypted copies of bee movie they will be storing!
Whereas not using a VPN will subject one to… domestic surveillance.
Time to spread the free word of Tor to everyone.
but i2p
I wasn’t crazy about i2p. I really loved Freenet and Zeronet
Doesn’t that have the same problem?
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The word is appreciated, but a link would be better…
Americans may be inadvertently waiving the privacy protections they’re entitled to under the law…
LOL what privacy protections? The NSA has proven time and time again that they don’t give a single shit about the law, certainly now more than ever.
What do I trust more: Legal protections nobody cares to enforce and could be a multi year battle in court, or well verified strong cryptography.
It’s not the cryptography you have to trust. It’s the other end of the tunnel. A free VPN most probably sells your data. Nobody offers free services for actually free.
I don’t use free VPNs
Is this another good reason to switch to HeadScale or Netbird?
Idk what either of those are. I don’t endorse any VPN. All I’m saying is that it doesn’t matter how strong the encryption algorithm is, you still have to trust your provider.
VPNs have the exact same power over you as ISPs. Using a VPN to avoid your ISP is just kicking the can down the road. That’s why you better choose a VPN that you trust.
I was under them impression that just using the internet in America might subject you to domestic surveillance.
Honestly they’d probably throw you on a list for not using the internet lol.
Yes, but with hundreds of millions of people online, they still need ways to cut and sift the data as they identify… well the “demographics” they want. So using a VPN might make you stand out as more technologically included, or more likely to be hiding something. Either way things they might like to know as they build profiles on all Americans.
I’m surprised they’re not just buying the data but it’s nice that our taxpayers are footing the bill either way for this little service.
VPNs could turn purely domestic communications into “foreign” communications the NSA can legally intercept
Lol. Then they go and immediately say:
and the FBI, somewhat less-legally can dip into at will
In other words, they don’t gaf about your sovereignty, and will monitor communications in any way they want, legally or otherwise.
They’ve been illegally digging into domestic communications for decades. Stallman and Snowden (to name a couple) exposed that a long time ago. Hell, the USA government exposes themselves all the time, the USA people just choose to ignore it.
They spy on domestic communications too, with the 5 eyes arrangement, they have their allies scoop up the information and share it back with them, even as it’s just the US doing the entire thing with a couple of foreign names on the masthead. Fucking lawyers.
For some unhinged reason, Trump wanted to kick Canada out of the five eyes last year, so as a response we just stopped sharing information with the US, and the US just kind of Kicked themselves out.
In contrast to not using a VPN, which subjects them to illegal surveillance already?
Are they retards or did they forget the NSA already does this illegally?
Yes to the first part
lol, what a bunch of liars. Americans don’t have any privacy protections to waive
Hey, just so you know. Trying to hide from us “totally not spying on you” might force us to totally spy on you.
Is it safe enough to use vpns based out of the US? I’m using nord which is non us.
Nord is owned by Tesonet, a data mining company which also owns SurfShark.
And Private Internet Access and ExpressVPN are owned by Kape, an Israeli firm.
ProtonVPN is owned by Proton, in Switzerland.
Mullvad is based in Sweden and is the main interest of its seemingly decent, also Swedish, parent company
Fan of Mullvad but just be aware its not what you want if you’re using a VPN for torrenting. They had to remove their port forwarding feature due to some bad actors ruining it for the rest of us.
If a friend was interested in that, what should I tell them to use instead? Asking for a friend, obviously.
I switched to AirVPN when Mullvad made the change. I think Proton, PIA, and Windscribe have it too.
Thanks. Sounds good
Thanks for the extra digging, no true privacy but at least there’s some transparency with the vpns.
Those are the ones that would cause them to surveil you.
The issue isn’t necessarily “the government will target you for using a VPN;” the issue is “if your IP makes you look like you’re outside the US because that’s where your traffic exits the VPN, the laws against domestic spying won’t protect you properly because you’ll look like a foreigner.”
Frankly, the headline is heavily spinning it to be anti-VPN fearmongering.
Yeah I reacted way too quickly. Then I realized half of X bot traffic spoofs everywhere. They’re intentionally doing a shakeup of everything and this one got under my skin cause I’m a daily user.
But before this was that outside US router ban that was pretty real. The DJI ban. So these types of news cascade and its worrisome.
Privacy companies based outside the US can still have VPN servers within the US. That traffic would still look domestic. The company being owned and headquartered outside the US just gives them a bit more protection against the rogue US government.
Some VPNs also allow multi-hop, so that you can connect to one VPN server via another. That could make it harder for the spooks to see that your traffic is leaving the US. Of course it also means that they might suspect any traffic coming out of a VPN server even based in the US, which is basically the point of this article.
And some VPNs allow you to enable a feature that protects against AI-driven data traffic analysis. So that someone who’s really committed can’t just monitor the size and frequency of your outgoing encrypted packets, then find matching patterns in packets leaving the server you’re connected to, tracing it to the destination. Instead, the VPN adds noise and sends uniform packets so that AI can’t trace it from source to destination.
I don’t know if Nord offers these features, cause I don’t use Nord. But I’ve heard some issues about them, which other user’s have already mentioned and offered alternatives for, so I’ll leave it at that
Yeah, sorry, I wasn’t as precise as I could’ve been. I was really just trying to convey the motivations (i.e. that it was due to being mistaken for foreign as opposed to being targeted for using a VPN), not go into the details of exactly which aspect of the VPN (the entrance IP geolocation, the exit IP geolocation, or the company HQ location) would actually trigger the “foreign-ness.”
I mean, even a US-based VPN company could look foreign if they have servers outside the US, or even if they just allow multi-hop to third-party servers to/from outside the US.
Except then they’re even more vulnerable not only to subpoenas but also extrajudicial and unconstitutional raids, as some journalists have discovered, especially in deeply red states but not always…
No. They will see that you’re using a vpn.
They might decide to record your traffic and save it until it can be decrypted.
Depends what you mean by “safe enough”. Every country on the planet can subpoena your VPN for traffic data. That’s why that data needs to be encrypted, regardless of what company.
Is it safe enough to use vpns based out of the US?
yes, just be aware that the gov could require the company to log you without letting you know, even if they have a no log setup. For the everyday person this is a non-issue, but if you are doing shadey stuff or have ties that may make someone super interested in your activities, you may wanna choose elsewhere.
The everyday person has political views that can be categorized as extremist. Freedom is more costly.
The everyday person has political views that are classified as extremist by the actual extremists as a way of deflection.
Oh, I fully understand that. But the everyday person isn’t going to affect the government to the extent where they want to not only issue a court order ordering a company to do this, but also issue a gag order to prevent the company from saying anything.
Political leaders, possibly. Terrorist organizers, definitely. But your typical protest, or right versus left debate, that’s not going to be enough for them to bother, let alone a court order forcing it.
In theory, I think all VPN usage is grounds to get you put on a list, but Nord is considered a relatively “normie” company by privacy aficionados. Everybody and their mother has seen an ad for it by this point. (The privacy aficionados will probably tell you it’s not good enough, but that’s a can of worms I won’t get into right now.)
Makes sense I should probably reframe it as is nord not going to sell their users out without a fight.
Only true privacy is like the tails stuff and some complicated routing stuff all the self hosting guys here probably know about.
AFAIK the one company that has been battle-tested is Mullvad, everything else requires (more) crossing your fingers.
Nord has subpar standards when it comes to logging now, and if that’s in line with recent Proton behavior, you might that interpret that as a potential willingness to cave to the US with minimal pushback
I use VPN because it actually speeds up my connection on cellular. My theory is the DNS servers that Verizon uses in my area are inefficient, to the point where I’ll get 1 Mbit down on Verizon, but 100 Mbit down connected to Proton VPN.
It has nothing to do with security, unless I’m in a coffee shop on WiFi.
Edit: here are my speeds on cellular, first without VPN, second while connected to a server in Los Angeles.
Bro fast isn’t measuring your internet speed, it’s measuring how fast you’re connected to Netflix. Phone carriers like Verizon generally throttle video streaming if you’re on a cheaper plan but everything else is uneffected. A VPN just bypasses the video streaming throttle because then Verizon can’t see what you’re connected to. Use a real speed test app.
Used Ookla. Got 40 Mbit down off VPN, 2.25 on VPN.
Will continue using this in future tests. I don’t watch Netflix on my phone. I usually am browsing Lemmy, YouTube, or listening to Apple Music. Fast.com has been my indicator of why my speed is so slow off of VPN when using these services on cellular. While it might not be an ideal speed test, its results track with my connections performance with these services.
That is to say, at times I’ll find myself not on VPN, find that my videos are chugging, turn VPN on, and problem solved. I usually only turn it off if I’m on home WiFi.
I’m a fan of testmy.net. Ookla never seemed to give me actual results while I was on spectrum. Several times I’d just get a printout of what my speeds were supposed to be, but then no download would come close, and 480p videos could barely buffer.
I’ve been using Wifiman lately. I find it pretty reliable and informative. I somewhat manage a wifi mesh network at my work so I use test apps frequently and have found it to be pretty good. I believe it is Ubiquity branded, who make a lot of wifi stuffs.
Tell me you don’t know how dns works without telling me.
As somebody who knows how DNS works, there are certainly cases where DNS servers causing a delayed response to requests will slow down the initial loading of sites. This would result in a layman thinking their wireless speed is “slow”
And how does this affect bandwidth, again?
Net Neutrality was repealed in the U.S. in 2017. ISPs including your mobile phone carrier are allowed to throttle your bandwidth based on the sites you visit. When you use a VPN an tunnel your DNS through it to servers not operated by your ISP, they don’t know which sites you’re visiting, so any automated throttling would not happen.
Hm yeah this one makes sense.
Guess I’m the asshole this time.
Can hardly blame you for failing to keep up with the breakneck pace in which the U.S. government has been assaulting our freedoms and privacy. Some new fresh hell every day an all.
Routing. Back in the day, Charter customers experienced horrible download speeds using Charter’s DNS servers.
Switching to Google’s would result in far more reliable network speeds.
Tell me you’re a dickhead without telling me you’re a dickhead.
Charter customers experienced horrible download speeds using Charter’s DNS servers.
How did that work? Are you saying that charters dns servers were sending traffic to completely different places?
Tried to google for this but found nothing so hard to understand the problem.
Why not just switch dns servers instead of getting a vpn?
Tell me you’re a dickhead without telling me you’re a dickhead.
Yeah fair. Got me there.
EDIT: other guy mentioned throttling, which is interesting. But changing dns servers doesn’t fix that.
Dunno about where Charter was routing. Just knew it was a common best practice for users in my town to manually set their DNS to Google.
Charter became Spectrum and since then this hasn’t been a need.
So far as cellular goes, I don’t think I can manage my IP settings on the phone as one would on Windows. I already use VPN if I travel or use public WiFi, and learned that, holy shit, my speeds are far better while connected than not. So I stay connected almost all the time. It’s counter intuitive, but I can’t argue with the results.
As a long time Charter/Spectrum customer (yay local monopolies) who’s toyed with my network a bit, I have heard about some of their network shenanigans, but they don’t seem to have hit my area. Guess I’m surprised it’d be defeated by something a simple as dns servers, and the MITM of it all if they’re redirecting traffic is terrifying, what with https and all.
I don’t think I can manage my IP settings on the phone as one would on Windows.
Certainly you can change your dns server on nearly any phone.
In a letter sent Thursday to Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard, the lawmakers say that because VPNs obscure a user’s true location, and because intelligence agencies presume that communications of unknown origin are foreign, Americans may be inadvertently waiving the privacy protections they’re entitled to under the law.
Several federal agencies, including the FBI, the National Security Agency, and the Federal Trade Commission, have recommended that consumers use VPNs to protect their privacy. But following that advice may inadvertently cost Americans the very protections they’re seeking.
The letter was signed by members of the Democratic Party’s progressive flank: Senators Ron Wyden, Elizabeth Warren, Edward Markey, and Alex Padilla, along with Representatives Pramila Jayapal and Sara Jacobs.
There’s a saying in Poland: “Robić kurwę z logiki” Which simultaneously can be translated as “To make a whore out of logic” Or “To turn the logic into a whore”
Technically true, you should choose your VPN provider carefully and not opt for the cheapest one right on.
In practice however, it’s safer than whatever surveillance US is trying to implement by forcing down US made routers.
