- cross-posted to:
- linux@programming.dev
- cross-posted to:
- linux@programming.dev
cross-posted from: https://piefed.social/c/linux@programming.dev/p/2509642/linus-torvalds-posts-his-first-ai-assisted-patch-to-the-linux-kernel-synthetic-test-clo
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Using AI tooling is fine as long as you know what’s being written by it.
I’m still a massive fan of copilot auto-complete because you’re still laying out the structure of the code and can hint at what you want with strong naming and good doc strings which are good practice anyway, and then the copilot finishes your thoughts and you save time. Especially good at rigging up tests.
Yup! I love AI for banging out object models. I can give it a pdf listing the spec with what amounts to hundreds of member variables and getters setters. I can say “hey AI turn this into a class, use the GOF builder pattern, and boom it does it. Saves me hours of monotonous typing.
This! 💪😎✌️
Assuming these updates are fully tested before they’re deployed, by a human, it shouldn’t be that impactful negatively that AI is being used. The problem comes when updates are moved into production without human oversight.
But it gives me the heebie jeebies, since AI is known to make and fuck shit up, and I’m stuck using MS Teams every day in my job so I see all the weird shit that vibe coding produces. I don’t relish the thought of weird, stupid shit happening to my Linux installation.
it shouldn’t be that impactful negatively that AI is being used
Doesn’t it invalidate the GPL? Open source licenses depend on copyright, and LLM-generated code isn’t copyrightable.
(Also, it can’t be proven not to contain plagiarised proprietary code, in fact it’s quite likely that it does; between this, the testing / review burden, and the mental decay of developers that use LLMs instead of coding, this pretty much kills open source projects, in several different ways to make sure they stay dead…)
Plus studies on skill decay when using AI. Also the linux maintainer onboarding pipeline—which was already critically endangered—is now no longer building understanding through writing code, just monitoring it’s generation.
I personally think you need to write a language by hand without AI doing it for you to learn in detail. It’s like trying to learn how to do math or how to write mandarin by just supervising an AI doing it… you need to do it yourself. Supervising is fine if you’re already fluent in mandarin and have been writing it for years and years. If you’re just learning it’s less than useless. If anything its directly harmful to learning.
Same with speaking a language yourself without crutching your native language as the best method to learn to speak it (immersion)
Edit: The long term externalities of AI—like pretty much everything nowadays—is going to be made worse by short term thinking. Quarterly profits and yearly results take precedence over long term skill development. Even OSS like linux will eat its seed corn out of expediency because of a lack of maintainers and new candidates being onboarded into the ivory tower mailing lists…
Yup, fair points.
One thing I’m noticing about AI code is it’s very, very task oriented. Like it will produce code, that works for the one objective, but absolutely will not account for other interactions with other parts of the system. It’s really bad at juggling multiple priorities so for every solution it creates, it causes another 2 problems with other parts of the stack. Human coders would design a solution that takes those interactions into account from the ground up. With an AI solution, you kind of have to rebuild those interactions as an afterthought, which is where a lot of failures occur. Since interaction of multiple subsystems is kind of the whole point of a kernel… I have concerns.
Human coders would design a solution that takes those interactions into account from the ground up.
Lol, this only happens in Utopia
Utopic might be a bit of a stretch, but I should probably qualify that as good human coders.
Even good programmers are captured in poor practices due to short timelines and end up delivering shit code.
Which Microsoft apparently has access to zero of them.
Every time somebody says Microsoft is now shit because of AI, I have to remind them windows has been human slop since Vista.
Human review of AI is sufficient in theory, but in practice it’s never as thorough as the understanding you get writing it yourself. It’s hard to avoid AI, but it is a constant invitation to laziness.
You’re not wrong. I personally prefer to do the work my self.
and in the process he introduced a race condition, a performance regression costing up to 9% when making reads of files around 1 MiB and dumped the responsibility of fixing his mess on co-maintainers and went on vacation.
Yeah but it sounds like three steps forward half a step back. Also, reviews/testing caught it. Sounds like the system is working. I’ve written quite a few race condition bugs in my 25 year career. That nobody caught until weeks in prod.
I understand the reluctance of AI but there’s no denying that AI in capable hands can be useful.
In capable hands. Is the real issue. Too many people believe they are capable hands.
Capable hands are going to quickly diminish as people grow up around vibe coding.
That’s not a new issue.
The absolute slop I’ve seen people hand write long before AI is actually impressive.
AI is just a force multiplier
I mean, fine. But its easier to fix human written slop over AI slop solely because of the sheer volume of AI slop.
Eh it depends, you can use AI to help you fix AI slop.
A hand written project I worked on was such a mess I can’t even begin to describe how badly written it was.
It was a POC writen by students that then just got launched as the actual product for millions of users.
The DB had zero foreign keys.
The thing just had to be rewritten from scratch
if Linus, who has worked with the language AND the project for decades, can’t find a race condition and a performance regression in his VERY FIRST LLM-assisted commit, then just maybe we should accept that humans are fucking horrible att catching the mistakes that clankers make and stop deluding us into thinking that this is the future of software engineering.
What makes you think he wouldn’t have made the same mistake hand coding it?
If he didn’t catch it on his own review the likelihood that he would’ve made the same mistake if he coded it himself is high.
First of all, if a human makes a mistake it’s a learning opportunity. When a human misses a bug an LLM hallucinated, noone really learn from it.
I like to compare it with the xray machines at airports. Human operators stare at the screens hunting for weapons and other prohibited items and miss pretty obvious stuff because they get bored out of their minds. They actually added a mechanism to insert fake xray images of weapons ever so often to actually keep the operators interested and alert. Ain’t much too different from doing code reviews being the human-in-the-loop/scapegoat.
Also, LLMs don’t necessarily generate good code. They excel at generating good-looking mediocre code.
So yeah, I’m gonna go ahead and claim that Linus is more likely to miss a bug a LLM wrote on his behalf than one he wrote himself.
The TSA has to pretend to even keep their employees looking busy. Hilarious.
Wild how mad you are about this.
Not really
Ok. Looks like the process just needs to do more testing/validation in CI.
What’s your alternative? just stop progress here? No more new things?
How about we keep relying on deterministic tooling that are not built on stolen data and don’t fuck the economy and the environment at the same time? How about putting a fraction of the money invested i LLMs into SAST and DAST tools? Maybe a dollar or two for fuzz testers? How about we look at projects like curl and build safeguards into the project to avoid footguns?
I’m not opposed, that honestly sounds good. Now, let’s wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which fills up first.
People will do what they do.
I run small local models, I do a lot of what you are saying. However this technology and process is new. Yeah capitalism will fuck everything up but you can’t control people.
Capitalism is a control mechanism for people
So let’s make a competing one and swap it out for something else. Oh and by tomorrow, I’ll wait.
Just because there are better options doesn’t mean you can change it over night and without set backs.
Have you considered that you might be an ai, yourself? I hear only AI makes these mistakes.
Isnt that because of a bug in f2fs, and not his kernel patch?
How does this compare to his usual patches?
This is the first time a bug has been introduced into Linux, the AI apocalypse is truly upon us.
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The directive isn’t pro AI. It is pro results. It emphasized responsibility.
Dubious claim
I always read this as shardware.
Calm down, Wit
Thanks for ruining it for me now.
