They are just not aware that they have this fear and can’t therefore understand and work on it effectively. Some people just seem to be stuck in emotional toddlerhood.
They are just not aware that they have this fear and can’t therefore understand and work on it effectively. Some people just seem to be stuck in emotional toddlerhood.
I think you don’t understand what I mean by immanent property, at no point did I say that the immanent properties link back perfectly to the phenomena. The word to watch out for was “abet”. My argument hinges on the idea, or rather lived fact, that things are seldom monocausal. It is an interplay of immanent properties that find themselves fulfilled with regard to certain ends and methods, that have to come first, and then fuel as well as sparks. Nothing of this can be eliminated or shrunk down to misinfo. The really important idea here is that not everything can become the subject of conspiracy theories, chairs, friends, or plain money f.e., even when there is an effort.
It would also help to study the difference between immanent and imminent, as I was no way referring to the latter.
And no, my example didn’t concern just Somalia, I exposed the general case for “freedoms” being perceived as being infracted through public health measures, I showed that all of these things have immanent properties similar to those of vaccines. Not every one of those is merely a sociological factor, that would be oversimplifying things dramatically. From the perspective of sociology everything looks like a nail with enough pondering.
Also I think you’re taking my rather lighthearted and obvious thought experiment with the relationship between antivax and phobias too seriously.
I 100% disagree with that. Money especially has been the subject of countless conspiracy theories. There are plenty of people (for example, with schizophrenia) who form conspiracy theories about their friends. I’m not sure there’s ever been a conspiracy theory about chairs, but that’s only because there’s never been a sociological reason for there to be.
You are treating ideas that exist only in particular times and cultures as inherent things that will naturally arise out of the existence of particular physical objects. That’s nonsense. Those ideas come from culture and social relations. In a culture that has the memory of life before vaccines within living memory, conspiracies about them don’t tend to emerge or gain traction, even though the physical object is the same. I feel like I’m repeating myself here, but that should just be the end of the discussion. It’s clear proof that it’s cultural and sociological.
Let me just put it this way: Is there any conceivable evidence that could exist that would falsify this idea that conspiracy theories come from the properties of particular physical objects rather than sociological factors?
I knew you were going to make this point. That doesn’t count! Paranoid delusions stemming from organic factors, like SCZ, are not of interest.
Conspiracy theories can only be of interest when they affect people of sound mind, further it’s clear that one can’t talk of conspiracy theories when they only concern a minority of mentally ill individuals, who are ill in an o r g a n i c, hence materialistically comprehensible way that doesn’t even begin to touch social phenomena in an interesting way.
It’s called materialism/enactivism, look it up. It’s not nonsense, it is hard science.
And where do those come from?!? Not out of thin air! I might as well believe in the power of God almighty! Preposterous.
Yes, fucking yes, and time and time again this is proven 100%. The mental world needs to, absolutely needs to, come out of material existence and it absolutely replenishes itself through material stimuli time and time again. Scientific inquiry can only come to this conclusion. Assuming systems are just disconnected, you might as well go back to the church and PRAY. Learn how to notice when you are thinking in abstract categories! Because you are not noticing it and cluelessly jumping up and down the ladder of abstraction.
Choosing to ignore sociology and social relations is not “hard science” or “materialism.” That’s like saying that if you recognize chemical compounds, you might as well “go back to the church and PRAY” because the only real material thing that exists are atoms (or subatomic particles, if you prefer). Just as chemistry is a field of science that studies the relation of atoms at the molecular level, just as biology is a field of science that studies the interaction of molecules at a cellular level, sociology is a scientific field that studies the interactions of individuals at a societal level. There is nothing “mystical” or “immaterial” about it.
When I say, for example, that cultures that have the memory of first getting vaccines in living memory tend to be more favorable towards vaccines and less prone to conspiracy theories about them, that is materialism! The material fact of whether the vaccine was available or not is what shaped the cultural ideas. Materialism doesn’t end at the quality of an object itself. The historical availablity of an object, which is both a material fact and a social relation, also affect the way people think about it.
What you’re doing is some bizarre, vulgarized form of materialism that disregards entirely material relations and the long term effects of material events on people’s thought processes, and instead attributes everything a person thinks about a particular object to the object’s innate qualities. This is nonsense, it’s a misunderstanding of what materialism is.
There are countless examples that prove this. For example, Spain once found tons of platinum in America and dumped it because they considered it worthless. If the reasons we value platinum have to do with it’s innate qualities, then the Spanish and everyone else at the time would have valued it as much as we do today.
First nowhere did I perform a complete rejection of sociology, in fact I even incorporated the idea of culture into one of my responses to your OBJECTIONS https://lemmy.ml/post/54374193/28498142
And nowhere do I flat out ignore social relations, which you vaguely throw into the discussion. I understand and respect those probably better than you do as evidenced by my not citing them willy nilly. And sociology is absolutely mystical, biologists laugh at most sociology, so do physicists and mathematicians. Durkheim’s book on suicide is absurd shit! The protestant work ethic thesis is an utterly crazed idea, and some people still hold on to it! To appropriate a Marxist term, and in the eyes of a sociologist a sociological term, sociology is mostly a petty bourgeois jerk between professors with very little practical applicability.
The cultural memory stuff is mostly BS and contradicted by your appeals to the temporally changing rate of vaccine denialism in western countries. As if these societies couldn’t be swayed by future social dynamics. This priming idea, that somehow having the right vaccine **first **is deeply meaningful, is charitably put a very rigid conception of the dynamics at hand.
It’s not vulgar, it is very sophisticated in fact. You believe ideas have a special power, as evidenced in your previous message, I am saying they don’t really. That is materialism. Matter over mind.
Also the false equivalence of chemical relations with social ones is nagging me.
Lmao Marx was all about social relationships! And sociology is simply the study of social relationships. You can critique particular ideas within sociology (I did not reference Durkheim or anybody like that in any way, so that’s irrelevant) but if you claim to understand social relationships and see them as worth studying, then you’re saying that you’re doing sociology right there. What is a social relationship if not a sociological factor? It’s like you heard the word “sociology” and completely lost the plot.
“As if?” Nothing I said could even remotely be construed as implying they couldn’t! In fact, it’s quite likely that they will follow the same trend, and that future generations that don’t have the memory of getting vaccines may be more prone to conspiracy theories about them. Where on earth did you possibly get this idea from, that I think otherwise?
By what in my previous message? You believe lizard people control the world, “as evidenced by your previous message,” see, I can make utterly baseless claims about your beliefs too.
More accurately, you’ve chosen to die on this hill of “cultures aren’t real, sociology isn’t real, history doesn’t matter, all ideas come from the inherent properties of individual objects and they’re only different across cultures because of social factors that are somehow totally different from sociological factors.”
What the fuck does this even mean? It’s mystical, but you don’t reject it? What are you even trying to say?
Nope, That is very abstract conception of sociology I am sure most sociologists wouldn’t share. And Marx wasn’t all about social relationships, he was just as much a philosopher of science, and that includes biology and physics and so on, a determinist even! Due to his materialism. As he grew older and more refined he also became more materialist and determinist in his thinking.
Why the hell do you then say this?!
“that cultures that have the memory of first getting vaccines in living memory tend to be more favorable towards vaccines and less prone to conspiracy theories about them,”
“You are treating ideas that exist only in particular times and cultures as inherent things that will naturally arise out of the existence of particular physical objects. That’s nonsense. Those ideas come from culture and social relations”
The last part, “That’s nonsense. Those ideas come from culture and social relations” treats it as a closed loop and that is bullshit. In fact the mind and ideas are constantly regenerated by physical inputs, that is why false memories are so easy to condition. So yes, everything “naturally” (I hate that word) arises out of physical objects and these words here are ephemera if they’re not being tested against concrete physical reality constantly. I can’t purely logic myself into the right thoughts to come to correct views about the world, it has to be connected to the tangible and if anything ideas that exist primarily through the exchange between people are a weak shadows of that tangible reality.
Just because things are mystical, doesn’t mean I have to reject them completely, just because something almost leaves a bad taste in my mouth doesn’t mean I shouldn’t engage with it. Economics is very crucial, I hate it! It is mystified and stupid! But I engage with it and take it seriously non the less because I am an antimoralist.
Also your approach to vaccine denialism just being regulating speech is in fact pure paternalism with a little education thrown in. Thought I might add that before nodding off.
“Sociology is the study of social life, social change, and the social causes and consequences of human behavior. Sociologists investigate the structure of groups, organizations, and societies and how people interact within these contexts. Since all human behavior is social, the subject matter of sociology ranges from the intimate family to global communities; from deviance to organized crime; from religious traditions to state institutions; and from the divisions of race, gender and social class to the shared beliefs of a common culture.” -American Sociological Association
So, no, it’s a very standard definition of sociology that’s consistent with how sociologists define it. You just have weird brainworms about what sociology is and means.
Um. Because it’s true? And once they no longer have the living memory of first getting vaccines, then they will no longer fit that criteria. How on earth does that, in any possible interpretation, lead to, “As if these societies couldn’t be swayed by future social dynamics?” Do you think the living memory of first getting the vaccine will last forever?
You’re misunderstanding that completely. There is no “closed loop.” Material conditions shape thought. That is what materialism is, by definition. When a group of people share the same material conditions, those same material conditions tend to shape their thought all together. When a bunch of people have similar thoughts arising out of shared experiences, that’s called a “culture.” This culture can then motivate them towards actions which will affect the material world, as well as influencing individual thoughts, together with constant influence from present material conditions.
The material condition of seeing vaccines eradicate disease shaped thought and culture. It makes people see the value in them and appreciate them more and be less conspiratorial about them. Over time, as the memory of that experience fades, the social conditions changes and people may become more complacent and more prone to distrusting them.
The difference between our views is just that I acknowledge material relations, including the availability of a material object, including events and experiences with the object, where you only look at physical characteristics of the object itself. Nothing I have said in any way implies that thoughts simple materialize from nothing or that ideas have some special power or that you arrive at ideas through pure logic or any of that. I’m just expressing actual materialism. Is the availability of an object not an aspect of the material world?
??? I’m not even gonna take a stab at detangling that. “I’m a materialist, but I don’t reject things just because they’re mystical.” Uhh, ok, sure.
If there is ever a case where removing misinformation is justified, this is it. Vaccines are the single greatest accomplishment of human civilization.
The first responsibility of the state is to protect the people. The state is not only justified in intervening, but has a moral obligation to intervene to ensure that children are vaccinated. It’s the same way that “freedom of speech” does not extend to shouting “fire” in a crowded theater. Antivax rhetoric results in physical harm to innocent people. You only disagree with my suggestion because you don’t fully understand what’s at stake.
This whole living memory thesis is complete horseshit. Half of Germans have the living memory of WW2, maybe not directly, but close enough. Many boomers remember the social unrest of the late 60’s to mid 1970’s. Yet they vote AfD! Germany is a country that prided itself with being open minded not even 12 years ago, where almost every country bumpkin held onto an antifascist belief of one kind or another. Yet despite having a (like all other memories flimsy) memory, they do a 180.
This is a pattern, or rather lack thereof, can be observed in revolutionary times as well. The Bolsheviks had to deal with an ultraconservative populace before there were big insurrectionary movements. This changed entirely within a few years.
You know why that is? Because humans are immediate beings more often than not that have a gigantic capacity of irrationality.
This is in direct contradiction with your OBJECTIONS to my materialism.
No, you talk about intelligence ops by Americans as if they have special power.
*untangling
Yes and this makes perfect sense. You equate mysticism to evil and therefore don’t understand when people try to engage with mystical ideas. You are not considering the content of the engagement in any way. All you are doing is attempt at nullifying a fundamentally opposed reading of sociology as this one self contained field.
The greatest accomplishment? Are you serious? Do you even know your history of science? Haber process ring a bell? Semiconductors? Agriculture? Refrigeration? Mechanical calculators? Freaking writing? Steel? Concrete? Nuclear reactors? Printing? Cooking? Spacefaring? The internet? Anaesthesia? There is no such thing as a greatest accomplishment you fool!
Actually, you’d want to get to a point misinformation does not even need to be removed. Where it is seen like the statement 1*1 = 2. That doesn’t happen through simple removal of the false content but engagement with it.
The state doesn’t give a shit about you unless it can make a buck off of you. The state will exacerbate your poverty very intentionally so that you take even the shittiest of jobs. The state, as led by a class of bureaucrats, has an interest in exploiting its populace. This is immanently baked into the state. The concept of a people is also complete horseshit which ultimately serves to ideologically iron over the extreme differences people have internally. I have much more in common with a Brazilian who’s renting their flat than with my landlord. The state owes you nothing and knows hardly any responsibilities except for its survival in state-state competition!
You view the state as a neutral object, that can either function to this or that interest’s end. But this is simply not true. Antivax rhetoric doesn’t harm people, it’s the inherent impossibility of state led education to ensure that people don’t fall for it in the first place, also the nature of work is one where people don’t learn to a sufficient extend if work became more diverse and interconnected, also less demanding, people would be much more adept in their general cognitive approach. Professor Dave for example has done the job of thousands of teachers and then some in combating vaccine misinfo – the state could never. You wish to be led by a benevolent ruler, a Zohran, but you don’t comprehend how choosing your rulers only affirms rulership over subjects instead of becoming self empowered. Yours is a completely faulty way of thinking if your interests are that of the working class. You are ignoring how people, at the mid to lower rungs, can empower themselves cognitively.