I propose that AT THE VERY LEAST, during the winter, work days be one hour shorter
This isn’t something you “propose”, this is something you demand when negotiating your job offer. If you’re not an in-demand worker and can’t do that, then join a union and have the union demand it.
Really, this whole daylight time / standard time debate is stupid. Solar noon should be at 12pm. Once you’ve fixed that, adjust other things. If in the summer people want more evening sun, then start work earlier. If in the winter they want more morning sun to make commutes safer, then start work later.
It’s absolutely ridiculous to have the freedom to change work hours and clocks, and think that the reasonable thing to do is to change the clocks so noon isn’t at noon, rather than just change work hours.
The time zone is an hour wide. Solar noon and chronological noon cannot coincide with each other throughout an entire time zone.
I would say that Solar noon should occur some time in the noon hour. Solar noon should never occur prior to chronological noon, nor after the noon hour. Solar noon should never occur at 11:00am on the clock. Solar noon should never occur at 11:30am on the clock. Solar noon should never occur at 11:59am on the clock. Nobody should experience solar noon earlier than 12:00pm. Solar noon should be experienced sometime between 12:00pm and 12:59:59pm on the clock. Solar noon should be experienced within the noon hour.
The system that more closely aligns with this is Daylight Savings Time. Standard Time pushes solar noon forward into the morning hours for most people. DST keeps noon in the noon hour for most people. If you want chronological noon to coincide with solar noon, you need to choose DST, not standard time.
Solar noon and chronological noon cannot coincide with each other throughout an entire time zone.
Sure, in a properly designed time zone, solar noon will range between a clock time of 11:30 and 12:30 at the edges. But, if you go with permanent DST it will range from 12:30 to 1:30. Nobody in the zone will have solar noon at noon.
Sure, in a properly designed time zone, solar noon will range between a clock time of 11:30 and 12:30 at the edges.
No, in a properly designed time zone, solar noon will occur between 12:00 and 12:59:59. Nobody should be experiencing solar noon before chronological noon in a properly designed time zone.
And yet, that is what we have. Boston experienced solar noon at 11:29AM today. New York at 11:40. Los Angeles, 11:37 AM.
Even if we accepted the ridiculous idea
of tolerating solar noon before noon, we would need a fifth time zone (and redrawing of the current time zones) to achieve what you’re trying to do. Maine and the rest of New England would have to be moved to Atlantic time instead of Eastern, for example.
If each of us adopted your “noon at noon” standard for ourselves, and we each independently and permanently selected Summer Time or Winter Time in our current time zone, the majority of the US population would be on Summer Time. The majority of the land would be on standard time, but the people are not evenly distributed across that land. The majority of the populace would be on DST.
We used to do that in the 19th century before standard time was a thing with railways. Though scheduling an online meeting with anyone outside your city would be hell, for example a 9:00am meeting in New York City would be 8:48am in Boston and 9:12am in DC.
It breaks the day and night in 6 parts each. These parts are longer in summer and shorter in winter, corresponding to a changing length of the work day, which is what you were describing. Certain aspects were retained in Japanese vocabulary like 午 still used to represent noon like in afternoon (but using the standard 24h clock), or the word for snack derived from the number 8 because that was what represented the time 2/3s of the way through the day when labourers of the day typically took a break and had some tea and a light meal.
We used to do that in the 19th century before standard time was a thing with railways.
No, with railroads each city had their own time. I’m not suggesting that. I’m saying that time zones should be arranged so that solar noon falls close to 12pm. With DST solar noon can be as late as 1:30pm, or perhaps even later in badly designed time zones. That’s dumb. Solar noon should be close to noon. We shouldn’t mess with that. If that makes certain other things like commuting or sending kids to school inconvenient, we should change the hours at which those activities happen.
Or, just use UTC for the time for everything and never change it. Then everyone’s in the same time zone, and you no longer have to wonder what time it is in Baku. You’d still have to do a bit of digging to know what normal work hours and normal sleeping hours are in Baku if you wanted to contact someone there though.
I agree that doing away with conventions like “9-to-5” would be a good idea, and just adjust schedules to whatever is healthiest rather than try to conform to a fixed system where not necessary. In China with a single timezone, the regions far west of Beijing supposedly just go about their day with offset schedules.
I’m saying that time zones should be arranged so that solar noon falls close to 12pm.
I suppose you might have meant that, but you did say in the earlier reply, quote, “Solar noon should be at 12pm” which would suggest each city would have its own noon so that it can be true for most people. Maybe I’m being too literal bordering on facetious, so I’ll stop there. Sorry for my misinterpretation of your comment.
This isn’t something you “propose”, this is something you demand when negotiating your job offer. If you’re not an in-demand worker and can’t do that, then join a union and have the union demand it.
Really, this whole daylight time / standard time debate is stupid. Solar noon should be at 12pm. Once you’ve fixed that, adjust other things. If in the summer people want more evening sun, then start work earlier. If in the winter they want more morning sun to make commutes safer, then start work later.
It’s absolutely ridiculous to have the freedom to change work hours and clocks, and think that the reasonable thing to do is to change the clocks so noon isn’t at noon, rather than just change work hours.
The time zone is an hour wide. Solar noon and chronological noon cannot coincide with each other throughout an entire time zone.
I would say that Solar noon should occur some time in the noon hour. Solar noon should never occur prior to chronological noon, nor after the noon hour. Solar noon should never occur at 11:00am on the clock. Solar noon should never occur at 11:30am on the clock. Solar noon should never occur at 11:59am on the clock. Nobody should experience solar noon earlier than 12:00pm. Solar noon should be experienced sometime between 12:00pm and 12:59:59pm on the clock. Solar noon should be experienced within the noon hour.
The system that more closely aligns with this is Daylight Savings Time. Standard Time pushes solar noon forward into the morning hours for most people. DST keeps noon in the noon hour for most people. If you want chronological noon to coincide with solar noon, you need to choose DST, not standard time.
Sure, in a properly designed time zone, solar noon will range between a clock time of 11:30 and 12:30 at the edges. But, if you go with permanent DST it will range from 12:30 to 1:30. Nobody in the zone will have solar noon at noon.
No, in a properly designed time zone, solar noon will occur between 12:00 and 12:59:59. Nobody should be experiencing solar noon before chronological noon in a properly designed time zone.
And yet, that is what we have. Boston experienced solar noon at 11:29AM today. New York at 11:40. Los Angeles, 11:37 AM.
Even if we accepted the ridiculous idea
of tolerating solar noon before noon, we would need a fifth time zone (and redrawing of the current time zones) to achieve what you’re trying to do. Maine and the rest of New England would have to be moved to Atlantic time instead of Eastern, for example.
If each of us adopted your “noon at noon” standard for ourselves, and we each independently and permanently selected Summer Time or Winter Time in our current time zone, the majority of the US population would be on Summer Time. The majority of the land would be on standard time, but the people are not evenly distributed across that land. The majority of the populace would be on DST.
We used to do that in the 19th century before standard time was a thing with railways. Though scheduling an online meeting with anyone outside your city would be hell, for example a 9:00am meeting in New York City would be 8:48am in Boston and 9:12am in DC.
You should have also have a read on Japan’s time system before 1873 in the Meiji period: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_clock
It breaks the day and night in 6 parts each. These parts are longer in summer and shorter in winter, corresponding to a changing length of the work day, which is what you were describing. Certain aspects were retained in Japanese vocabulary like 午 still used to represent noon like in afternoon (but using the standard 24h clock), or the word for snack derived from the number 8 because that was what represented the time 2/3s of the way through the day when labourers of the day typically took a break and had some tea and a light meal.
No, with railroads each city had their own time. I’m not suggesting that. I’m saying that time zones should be arranged so that solar noon falls close to 12pm. With DST solar noon can be as late as 1:30pm, or perhaps even later in badly designed time zones. That’s dumb. Solar noon should be close to noon. We shouldn’t mess with that. If that makes certain other things like commuting or sending kids to school inconvenient, we should change the hours at which those activities happen.
Or, just use UTC for the time for everything and never change it. Then everyone’s in the same time zone, and you no longer have to wonder what time it is in Baku. You’d still have to do a bit of digging to know what normal work hours and normal sleeping hours are in Baku if you wanted to contact someone there though.
I agree that doing away with conventions like “9-to-5” would be a good idea, and just adjust schedules to whatever is healthiest rather than try to conform to a fixed system where not necessary. In China with a single timezone, the regions far west of Beijing supposedly just go about their day with offset schedules.
I suppose you might have meant that, but you did say in the earlier reply, quote, “Solar noon should be at 12pm” which would suggest each city would have its own noon so that it can be true for most people. Maybe I’m being too literal bordering on facetious, so I’ll stop there. Sorry for my misinterpretation of your comment.
No, it would suggest that each person should have their own personal noon, if you’re being pedantic.