You know, if you use Linux you don’t have to jump through hoops like this (trivial though they may be). Wouldn’t it be nice to not have an adversarial, abusive relationship with your OS?
That’s because like vegans, there is a moral imperative that most ignore or don’t care about, we have a genuine emotional attachment to foss, and because you are ignorant of the topic, you don’t care to listen.
What he said is harmless, true, and there is a moral imperative to say it, and ontop of that it isn’t like a diet, it’s better software that respects you, doesn’t spy on you, and for free and the only downside is a 15 minute install process (and the use of a flash drive). Why do you care enough to fight that?
I’m all for Linux and have been using it for years, but saying a 15min install is the only downside is disingenuous. For many people there are a few programs they rely on that won’t work on Linux, and hardware support and general user-friendliness are still not quite where they should be.
the vast majority of hardware is supported, and as someone who works IT and gives linux to the elderly, I don’t agree at all with the user unfriendliness, provided you use mint and kde.
If your software doesn’t run that does suck, but the vast majority of usecases work perfectly with the breif explanation of “use the app store for any software you need to install.” Do you have any examples of user friendliness issues, or is it just that there are choices to make at all?
“The vast majority” is useless if the hardware someone has doesn’t work, and you usually don’t get official support and warranty from the manufacturer for Linux. There are also some categories like webcams, audio equipment or fingerprint readers where Linux support is still notoriously bad. And even if something mostly works, it’s fairly common for some hardware to have missing features, instabilities or minor issues on Linux. E.g. my mouse works on Linux ofc, but the software to set and edit profiles doesn’t.
Usability issues are mostly cases where you have to fall back to the terminal. An example from my experience would be that trying to upgrade the system from the app store fails half the time, so I have to use the terminal. Another would be a failed boot or graphics issues due to a broken Nvidia driver installation or messed up SELinux policies. It’s all fixable in the terminal, but good luck if you can’t use that.
How much are you willing to bet? I give a hint, there is an open issue from 2016 on their GitHub about supporting the manufacturer of my mouse. And that’s pretty much the point, because on Windows I just get the software with the box and that’s it. Of course it’s closed source and stuff, but it still provides a better experience than no support at all. And that’s just one example, Linux also can’t use the highest available resolution of my webcam, and the fingerprint reader on my laptop has been completely unusable on Linux from day one.
Immutable distros fix most boot issues, in the sense that you can undo a failed change, but that’s about it.
Ofc Windows has its fair share of issues, but it just doesn’t break as much in my experience. Probably because they have orders of magnitude more people working on finding and fixing consumer issues, incl. from 3rd party device and software manufacturers.
I’m sorry, but you’re lying to yourself if you think consumer support is on par with Windows. It’s getting closer and closer every year, but we are not there yet.
You can not agree with OP, but that doesn’t change reality. Linux is a pain to use for a regular user. Linux doesn’t support some programs that people depend on and have learned to use. Those things aren’t an issue for Windows, people don’t need to look around for fixes.
I get it, you like it. But the reality of it is - it’s a niche operating system for home use for a reason.
I don’t agree that it’s a pain for the regular user, I think it’s a pain if you use niche software, or software that’s designed to not run on linux intentionally.
Outside of that, it works perfectly fine. The vast VAST majority of users will not miss any software.
Linux doesn’t support some programs that people depend on and have learned to use.
Weird that Linux can’t run some applications written specifically for Windows. It’s a nitpick, but your sentence should be “some programs don’t support Linux”, because the issue isn’t with the OS, it’s with the developers of the software.
In any case, outside of some specific examples, most Windows software actually does work on Linux thanks to Wine and Proton.
Those things aren’t an issue for Windows, people don’t need to look around for fixes.
Maybe not, but they need to look around for fixes to dozens of other issues that shouldn’t exist. Like getting rid of ads in your OS.
If linux was a better software, it would have a substantial desktop share. But it doesn’t since it’s the most unintuitive userhating software built by man.
I’ve never seen any OS being shilled like linux, it even beats apple fanboys during its heyday. A free OS that’s constantly pushed down our throats should by all means be a consumers number 1 choice if it was good.
But I guess having to learn 5 million commands to open a folder is bad design, who knew? I have better use for my time than debug drivers and figure out dependencies when W10 sort of works all that out for me in an intuitive fashion.
Are you just typing random letters? Terminal commands are basically programs, like word. There’s thousands of them, just like there’s thousands of programs on windows. And yeah, these programs, or terminal commands can get quirky, but they are also very powerful.
Luckily for you, modern distributions work perfectly fine without ever touching the terminal, so you should be fine if you prefer gui programs.
If you think you need to learn commands to open a folder you didn’t use Linux for the past 20 years. Most things are done now via a graphical environment such as Plasma or GNOME. It’s the more advanced things such as managing system services that are done via a terminal. But normal user really doesn’t have to do these kind of things for normal desktop use.
Wouldn’t it be nice to not have an adversarial, abusive relationship with your OS?
The whole point of computers, as far as I can tell, is to be that abusive relationship we never could perfect with humans. Linux is no exception, it’s just more passive-aggressive and better with gaslighting.
“You see, if only you’d installed this dependency, which I showed you so clearly in the error logs all along - and I categorised them so nicely - but you never like to look there, do you? - I mean, I understand, and that’s why I mentioned it - not too strongly, because I didn’t want to upset you more - in the terminal output…”
Package managers have become so much better with dependencies. It’s been a while since I’ve encountered an issue, with yay it very usually works out of the box.
Agreed. Though I do have recent experiences of dependency troubles. I really should get better at reporting them to the proper channels, but by the time I’ve worked out how to fix, I usually don’t have the energy left… 😕
You realize that 16 means 2016, right? That’s almost 8 years ago. And even as someone who uses Linux I don’t like Ubuntu. I highly recommend trying Mint, Fedora, or EndeavourOS (Arch)
There’s a difference between feeling abused from intentional mistreatment and then there’s frustration from miscommunication or inadequacy from either partner.
Listen, I probably one of the most hardcore linux propagandists out there, which spells disaster when I confess I’m anything but a tech guru, but even I am aware some people are too off the deep end to swim back and move to another OS.
Windows is locked in a dominant position and regardless how bad their solutions are in fact, not enough tech/privacy aware high level managers exist to push windows off the corporate shelf.
The alternative is to spread Linux and FOSS to kids and incentivize the use and exploring of technology because it is simply fun to do it, not shotgun proseletize and hope something sticks.
Your intention is good but the method, which I often use as well, needs a lot of refining.
And if you use Linux you have to jump through hoops to install (non-steam) games. I know, just yesterday I had to search a working tutorial for installing Fall Guys.
As a user who bought FG on steam, I had ZERO issues whatsoever getting this to run on my Walmart laptop. This is an Epic issue. Fuck Epic. Ran Fall Guys into the ground before laying off basically all of its creative team. It’s just a grind now…
Anyone who makes a stand to defend Linux as a gaming platform over Windows is righteously impractical at best, and a principled idiot at worst. It’s simply not there yet.
This isn’t much of a hoop, you install wine and run the installer with it, furthermore, I’d rather deal with the kind of hoop that isn’t actively harming you intentionally any day.
My advice is honestly, just use steam, it’s largely a better experience anyway. I don’t think fall guys is exactly necessary. That’s a very self-imposed hoop, i’d get it if it was critical work, or if there were no alternatives, but, steam is a perfect experience.
It’s epics job to support linux, not linux’s job to support epic.
You ignore the reality though that even though it might be “epics job” to support Linux, it’s still the user’s problem right now if you want to play Fall Guys with your friends.
And you can’t just say “playing Fall Guys is not exactly necessary”. Social connections are very important to humans, being one of a group to not be able to participate in a shared activity can be socially isolating. Of course that’s a completely different topic you could argue about if it should be like this, but you can only dismiss it as not necessary for yourself, not as not necessary in general, for others.
If you use Windows, it works immediately, if you use Linux, you have to spend the time and do whatever that guy did. This is a very real cost for the user, time is one of the most precious things we have.
Of course you can argue about if it is worth it, but in the end people assign different value to things. If playing Fall Guys is very important to someone and it takes more time to do on Linux than on Windows, then Linux loses value. And this situation is not a single instance. People mostly only do what is the best for them in particular, and using less time to do the things they want to do is a prime example for this.
Fall guys is not the only game, nearly all of steam works flawlessly. So meh, and it is epics job to fix that. Play any other game on steam, fall guys isn’t important at all for the vast vast majority of users.
You do realize how much money Microsoft spends to make games work well on Windows, right? It is absolutely the responsibility of the OS to ensure smooth experience across many apps and services. This attitude right here is why Linux plays second fiddle to Windows still.
and yet nearly everything on steam works flawlessly.
It is absolutely the job of app devs to support the platform, I have no idea why you would believe otherwise, and as far as gaming is concerned I genuinely believe the only place linux loses on steam is anticheat, which isn’t a matter of linux side support. Do you have an example?
Linux in a huge number of cases performs better than windows, and the only place where windows seems to win these days is anti-cheat, which is malware. Windows is certainly better when it comes to allowing users to install malware, but that’s really about it.
It’s not Linux or Windows. For example Gaming and everyday Tasks I use Windows because Games I play run much better on Windows and I like to use it more. But for things like programming I will use Linux. I’m just beginning learning to code but I already made the painful experience of trying to get compiler, debugger etc. running on windows.
Linux and Windows are Tools. You can’t use a Hammer for every Taks, sometimes you need a Screwdriver.
Some tools are easy to repair but some tools detect if replaced parts are not from the manufacturer and refuse to work, or even require a subscription. You may say you really need a “screwdriver” but that doesn’t negate the criticism it requires being shoved up your fucking ass to work.
I believe proprietary software gives unjust power to the creators/owners over the users and that most people being taken advantage of is detrimental to a free society.
Ableton Live and plugins don’t work on Linux, and I’d rather run it on my own build, so I have to use Windows. That’s also the machine I game on. Everything else is Debian.
Thanks for the Bitwig suggestion, I’ll look into it.
I’ve tried to set up multitrack recording a few times on Linux and regularly run into configuration issues. It is clearly not at parity with Windows. And even when one flavor of software does work, that’s not the same as someone’s chosen software working.
Some people have a workflow where they need to share stems and settings with collaborators or for mixing, which requires a specific program. And there’s still a fair amount of personal investment in learning the power features of a given DAW.
I’m using Linux as a daily driver and would like to see wider adoption. Unfortunately this is an area where I can’t recommend it.
You know, if you use Linux you don’t have to jump through hoops like this (trivial though they may be). Wouldn’t it be nice to not have an adversarial, abusive relationship with your OS?
Some of you sound like the annoying stereotype of vegans pushing their diet lifestyle.
That’s because like vegans, there is a moral imperative that most ignore or don’t care about, we have a genuine emotional attachment to foss, and because you are ignorant of the topic, you don’t care to listen.
What he said is harmless, true, and there is a moral imperative to say it, and ontop of that it isn’t like a diet, it’s better software that respects you, doesn’t spy on you, and for free and the only downside is a 15 minute install process (and the use of a flash drive). Why do you care enough to fight that?
I’m all for Linux and have been using it for years, but saying a 15min install is the only downside is disingenuous. For many people there are a few programs they rely on that won’t work on Linux, and hardware support and general user-friendliness are still not quite where they should be.
the vast majority of hardware is supported, and as someone who works IT and gives linux to the elderly, I don’t agree at all with the user unfriendliness, provided you use mint and kde.
If your software doesn’t run that does suck, but the vast majority of usecases work perfectly with the breif explanation of “use the app store for any software you need to install.” Do you have any examples of user friendliness issues, or is it just that there are choices to make at all?
“The vast majority” is useless if the hardware someone has doesn’t work, and you usually don’t get official support and warranty from the manufacturer for Linux. There are also some categories like webcams, audio equipment or fingerprint readers where Linux support is still notoriously bad. And even if something mostly works, it’s fairly common for some hardware to have missing features, instabilities or minor issues on Linux. E.g. my mouse works on Linux ofc, but the software to set and edit profiles doesn’t.
Usability issues are mostly cases where you have to fall back to the terminal. An example from my experience would be that trying to upgrade the system from the app store fails half the time, so I have to use the terminal. Another would be a failed boot or graphics issues due to a broken Nvidia driver installation or messed up SELinux policies. It’s all fixable in the terminal, but good luck if you can’t use that.
I would not agree that is common at all, these are edge cases and I bet your mouse works with piper.
plus soon immutable distros will fix any chance of system breakages, and it’s not like similar things don’t regularly happen on windows.
How much are you willing to bet? I give a hint, there is an open issue from 2016 on their GitHub about supporting the manufacturer of my mouse. And that’s pretty much the point, because on Windows I just get the software with the box and that’s it. Of course it’s closed source and stuff, but it still provides a better experience than no support at all. And that’s just one example, Linux also can’t use the highest available resolution of my webcam, and the fingerprint reader on my laptop has been completely unusable on Linux from day one.
Immutable distros fix most boot issues, in the sense that you can undo a failed change, but that’s about it.
Ofc Windows has its fair share of issues, but it just doesn’t break as much in my experience. Probably because they have orders of magnitude more people working on finding and fixing consumer issues, incl. from 3rd party device and software manufacturers.
I’m sorry, but you’re lying to yourself if you think consumer support is on par with Windows. It’s getting closer and closer every year, but we are not there yet.
You can not agree with OP, but that doesn’t change reality. Linux is a pain to use for a regular user. Linux doesn’t support some programs that people depend on and have learned to use. Those things aren’t an issue for Windows, people don’t need to look around for fixes.
I get it, you like it. But the reality of it is - it’s a niche operating system for home use for a reason.
I don’t agree that it’s a pain for the regular user, I think it’s a pain if you use niche software, or software that’s designed to not run on linux intentionally.
Outside of that, it works perfectly fine. The vast VAST majority of users will not miss any software.
Demonstrably false.
Weird that Linux can’t run some applications written specifically for Windows. It’s a nitpick, but your sentence should be “some programs don’t support Linux”, because the issue isn’t with the OS, it’s with the developers of the software.
In any case, outside of some specific examples, most Windows software actually does work on Linux thanks to Wine and Proton.
Maybe not, but they need to look around for fixes to dozens of other issues that shouldn’t exist. Like getting rid of ads in your OS.
edit: I meant to say this to the one you replied to!
I agree with you. Plus, most of us are forced to use Windows 11 at work, where we spend most of our screen time.
Maybe I can bother with Linux at home, but that’s a fraction of the use case here.
I agree with you. Plus, most of us are forced to use Windows 11 at work, where we spend most of our screen time.
Maybe I can bother with Linux at home, but that’s a fraction of the use case here.
In fact, installation is one of the easiest parts unless you use vanilla arch
If linux was a better software, it would have a substantial desktop share. But it doesn’t since it’s the most unintuitive userhating software built by man.
Because as we all know, the free market always comes up with the correct answer and is never distorted by companies.
I’ve never seen any OS being shilled like linux, it even beats apple fanboys during its heyday. A free OS that’s constantly pushed down our throats should by all means be a consumers number 1 choice if it was good.
But I guess having to learn 5 million commands to open a folder is bad design, who knew? I have better use for my time than debug drivers and figure out dependencies when W10 sort of works all that out for me in an intuitive fashion.
Thanks for showing that you’re not acting in good faith, bye.
You know exactly what I mean though. I just think you can’t bear to come up with a lie explaining how “sudo fifo 8 6 j u77f6j 87” is good design.
Are you just typing random letters? Terminal commands are basically programs, like word. There’s thousands of them, just like there’s thousands of programs on windows. And yeah, these programs, or terminal commands can get quirky, but they are also very powerful.
Luckily for you, modern distributions work perfectly fine without ever touching the terminal, so you should be fine if you prefer gui programs.
If you think you need to learn commands to open a folder you didn’t use Linux for the past 20 years. Most things are done now via a graphical environment such as Plasma or GNOME. It’s the more advanced things such as managing system services that are done via a terminal. But normal user really doesn’t have to do these kind of things for normal desktop use.
mkdir directory_nameThis comment too was posted without an /s. Insane how furries think that is a normal thing to do to use your pc
It’s not normal either… you just use the file manager. It doesn’t even open the folder. Just ignore them.
Also, did you just call us furries without a /s?
ls path/to/directory/The whole point of computers, as far as I can tell, is to be that abusive relationship we never could perfect with humans. Linux is no exception, it’s just more passive-aggressive and better with gaslighting.
“You see, if only you’d installed this dependency, which I showed you so clearly in the error logs all along - and I categorised them so nicely - but you never like to look there, do you? - I mean, I understand, and that’s why I mentioned it - not too strongly, because I didn’t want to upset you more - in the terminal output…”
Package managers have become so much better with dependencies. It’s been a while since I’ve encountered an issue, with yay it very usually works out of the box.
Agreed. Though I do have recent experiences of dependency troubles. I really should get better at reporting them to the proper channels, but by the time I’ve worked out how to fix, I usually don’t have the energy left… 😕
My stint with Ubuntu… 16? Did not end well.
You realize that 16 means 2016, right? That’s almost 8 years ago. And even as someone who uses Linux I don’t like Ubuntu. I highly recommend trying Mint, Fedora, or EndeavourOS (Arch)
There’s a difference between feeling abused from intentional mistreatment and then there’s frustration from miscommunication or inadequacy from either partner.
Listen, I probably one of the most hardcore linux propagandists out there, which spells disaster when I confess I’m anything but a tech guru, but even I am aware some people are too off the deep end to swim back and move to another OS.
Windows is locked in a dominant position and regardless how bad their solutions are in fact, not enough tech/privacy aware high level managers exist to push windows off the corporate shelf.
The alternative is to spread Linux and FOSS to kids and incentivize the use and exploring of technology because it is simply fun to do it, not shotgun proseletize and hope something sticks.
Your intention is good but the method, which I often use as well, needs a lot of refining.
And if you use Linux you have to jump through hoops to install (non-steam) games. I know, just yesterday I had to search a working tutorial for installing Fall Guys.
BTW for anyone needing help in the future, this worked: https://youtu.be/X41PlQNx0vk
As a user who bought FG on steam, I had ZERO issues whatsoever getting this to run on my Walmart laptop. This is an Epic issue. Fuck Epic. Ran Fall Guys into the ground before laying off basically all of its creative team. It’s just a grind now…
Anyone who makes a stand to defend Linux as a gaming platform over Windows is righteously impractical at best, and a principled idiot at worst. It’s simply not there yet.
This isn’t much of a hoop, you install wine and run the installer with it, furthermore, I’d rather deal with the kind of hoop that isn’t actively harming you intentionally any day.
It was not easy. Other guides didn’t work, I had to find it, and also do or, so it took like 1 and a half hour.
My advice is honestly, just use steam, it’s largely a better experience anyway. I don’t think fall guys is exactly necessary. That’s a very self-imposed hoop, i’d get it if it was critical work, or if there were no alternatives, but, steam is a perfect experience.
It’s epics job to support linux, not linux’s job to support epic.
You ignore the reality though that even though it might be “epics job” to support Linux, it’s still the user’s problem right now if you want to play Fall Guys with your friends.
And you can’t just say “playing Fall Guys is not exactly necessary”. Social connections are very important to humans, being one of a group to not be able to participate in a shared activity can be socially isolating. Of course that’s a completely different topic you could argue about if it should be like this, but you can only dismiss it as not necessary for yourself, not as not necessary in general, for others.
If you use Windows, it works immediately, if you use Linux, you have to spend the time and do whatever that guy did. This is a very real cost for the user, time is one of the most precious things we have.
Of course you can argue about if it is worth it, but in the end people assign different value to things. If playing Fall Guys is very important to someone and it takes more time to do on Linux than on Windows, then Linux loses value. And this situation is not a single instance. People mostly only do what is the best for them in particular, and using less time to do the things they want to do is a prime example for this.
Fall guys is not the only game, nearly all of steam works flawlessly. So meh, and it is epics job to fix that. Play any other game on steam, fall guys isn’t important at all for the vast vast majority of users.
You do realize how much money Microsoft spends to make games work well on Windows, right? It is absolutely the responsibility of the OS to ensure smooth experience across many apps and services. This attitude right here is why Linux plays second fiddle to Windows still.
and yet nearly everything on steam works flawlessly.
It is absolutely the job of app devs to support the platform, I have no idea why you would believe otherwise, and as far as gaming is concerned I genuinely believe the only place linux loses on steam is anticheat, which isn’t a matter of linux side support. Do you have an example?
Harming you intentionally… This is rich.
Do you actually believe windows doesn’t harm users intentionally? Wait until you hear how they spy on you.
Don’t care, I block it. Doesn’t mean it’s not superior to Linux for a gaming platform.
“I have to guard against my partner hitting me, doesn’t mean they’re not better at playing tennis”
Linux in a huge number of cases performs better than windows, and the only place where windows seems to win these days is anti-cheat, which is malware. Windows is certainly better when it comes to allowing users to install malware, but that’s really about it.
It’s not Linux or Windows. For example Gaming and everyday Tasks I use Windows because Games I play run much better on Windows and I like to use it more. But for things like programming I will use Linux. I’m just beginning learning to code but I already made the painful experience of trying to get compiler, debugger etc. running on windows.
Linux and Windows are Tools. You can’t use a Hammer for every Taks, sometimes you need a Screwdriver.
Some tools are easy to repair but some tools detect if replaced parts are not from the manufacturer and refuse to work, or even require a subscription. You may say you really need a “screwdriver” but that doesn’t negate the criticism it requires being shoved up your fucking ass to work.
Bruh. In which Industry do you work? Don’t act like using Windows/Linux is causing you physical Pain.
I believe proprietary software gives unjust power to the creators/owners over the users and that most people being taken advantage of is detrimental to a free society.
Ableton Live and plugins don’t work on Linux, and I’d rather run it on my own build, so I have to use Windows. That’s also the machine I game on. Everything else is Debian.
You could try Bitwig. I have a friend that prefers it over Ableton even on Windows. And Windows-only VSTs work with Yabridge
Thanks for the Bitwig suggestion, I’ll look into it.
I’ve tried to set up multitrack recording a few times on Linux and regularly run into configuration issues. It is clearly not at parity with Windows. And even when one flavor of software does work, that’s not the same as someone’s chosen software working.
Some people have a workflow where they need to share stems and settings with collaborators or for mixing, which requires a specific program. And there’s still a fair amount of personal investment in learning the power features of a given DAW.
I’m using Linux as a daily driver and would like to see wider adoption. Unfortunately this is an area where I can’t recommend it.
Yeah, let me know when Revit, Civil 3D, ArcGIS, OpenRoads Designer are operable and supported on Linux.
Yes, should escape from using Windows if can. But this is just news, why automatically there must be a comment like that?