More video and eyewitness info on Al Jazeera so far

Also reported on Common Dreams and Middle East Eye.

I haven’t found any reports of any independent investigations yet, hopefully they are underway

  • zerog_bandit@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    6
    arrow-down
    34
    ·
    edit-2
    10 months ago

    I don’t deny that a genocide was attempted on 10/7. I also believe that Israel has the right to ensure it’s security, especially if the Palestinian public refuses to do so themselves. You might say “But Palestinians have no responsibility to do so” and you’d be wrong. 80 years of terrorism against the Israeli people means that Palestinians have a responsibility to stop the violence.

    Until they do, Israel must take actions to defend itself. If you have suggestions for how this should be done, I’m all ears.

        • bamboo@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          5
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          10 months ago

          Yeah, that’s a list of Palestinians attacking invaders/colonizers in Palestine. Palestinians defending themselves in Palestine is unambiguously self defense. The tactics aren’t preferable, but I’m in no position to tell any person suffering under a brutal occupation that their fight for self determination is in some way invalid.

          • zerog_bandit@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            arrow-down
            10
            ·
            10 months ago

            Cool, you say that Israel is colonizers and Palestine is defending themselves.

            I’ll say that Gazans are terrorists and Israel is ensuring it’s security. Israelis defending themselves after an invasion of their country is unambiguously self-defense. Their tactics aren’t preferable, but I’m in no position to tell someone who is under attack how to defend themselves.

            Unfortunately none of this solves problems for actual civilians in the conflict.

    • tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      10
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      10 months ago

      You got your sides mixed up, it’s been 80 years of terrorism, subjugation, blockades, land grabs, against the Palestinian people, and the Palestinians have a right to ensure their security. Have you considered why Israel needs to ‘defend itself’? Why do you think Palestinian people have been fighting for 80 years?

    • jordanlund@lemmy.worldM
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      10
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      10 months ago

      Here’s the problem… For the past several decades or so, Israel has blockaded Gaza and the West Bank from getting any kind of support from the outside.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip

      They don’t have the material or the personnel to do ANYTHING about the violence being enacted against the Israelis and that’s BY THE DESIGN of the Israelis.

      So what do you expect the Palestinians to do? Israeli policies have been crushing them for decades, they don’t have the capacity to throw out Hamas because Israel actively prevents them from having the capacity. Sooo? Obtain weapons illegally? Now in the eyes of Israel they ARE Hamas and they get attacked too.

    • WaxedWookie@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      9
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      10 months ago

      TL:DR: Israel isn’t defending itself by committing a genocide against a population they’ve subjugated.

      There are a series of issues with this…

      • Genocide isn’t an act of defence - it’s an attempt to completely exterminate a group of people, and is the greatest act of aggression a group could possibly commit.

      • The response we’re seeing is in no way proportionate, and causing a completely unacceptable level of civilian casualties (10k+ children alone in response to 1,200 total killed according to Israeli counts).

      • Israel have killed more Palestinians than the total number of Hamas members in existence with zero indication of progress, and no sign of stopping.

      • Israel have maintained Palestine in conditions described by the UN as an open air concentration camp, and have placed severe apartheid restrictions on Palestinians for years.

      • Israel have killed orders of magnitude more Palestinians than Hamas have killed Israelis.

      • Israel funded the rise of Hamas (who were no less violent then) over the secular moderates - as confirmed by both IDF leadership at the time she Arafat. I see no reason for them to do this other than to manufacture pretext for the genocide while maintaining US support.

      • Palestinians seem to have a lot more to “defend themselves” against - between the numbers killed and displaced and the very restrictive living conditions they’re subjected to.

      • Israeli leadership have said pretty plainly and repeatedly that they intend to exterminate Palestinians - if all Palestinians were to lay down arms and submit to the apartheid conditions, movement restrictions, and conditions we’ve seen over the past decade, the well funded nuclear power with modern military simply won’t stop.

      What makes Israel’s actions self-defence while Hamas’s lesser actions are not?

        • WaxedWookie@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          8
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          edit-2
          10 months ago

          I’m sure you’d call Hamas’s actions a genocide, but based on what definition or metric?

          No differences between Israel and the Nazis?

          No difference between Israel’s self-defence and Hamas’s attacks?

            • WaxedWookie@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              4
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              edit-2
              10 months ago

              Your inability to point to a meaningful distinction between those you’re supporting and literal Nazis or provide a consistent definition of genocide (because you can’t manufacture one that describes Hamas without admitting Israel is committing one) says far more than Godwin’s law ever will.

              • zerog_bandit@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                5
                ·
                10 months ago

                Your inability to form any argument besides a comparison to Nazis says far more about your reasons for advocating for genocide of Israelis.

                • WaxedWookie@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  4
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  10 months ago

                  Still waiting on that definition of genocide or a meaningful distinction from the Nazis.

                  Meanwhile, I don’t need to make an argument - I’ll just let the Israeli leadership do that for me…

                  Prime Minister Netanyahu 

                  They (Israel/IDF) are committed to completely eliminating this evil from the world,”

                  and 

                  You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember.

                  and

                  I don’t call them human animals because that would be insulting to animals

                  “Defence” minister Galant

                  We are fighting human animals, and we are acting accordingly

                  Kallner…

                  Nakba to the enemy now! This day is our Pearl Harbour. We will still learn the lessons. Right now, one goal: Nakba! A Nakba that will overshadow the Nakba of 48. A Nakba in Gaza and a Nakba for anyone who dares to join!

                  Atbaryan… 

                  erasing all of Gaza from the face of the Earth. Gaza needs to be wiped out.

                  Halevi…

                  goals for this victory. One, there is no more Muslim land in the land of Israel. After we make it the land of Israel, Gaza should be left as a monument, like Sodom.”