As the title states really. I need to refer to this diverse group of people, who somehow have gotten put in the same box labeled “sexual minorites”.
I’m a boring CISHET vanilla white male, so I don’t really know. I want to include as many as I can when I refer to “lgbtq+ people”. I’ve been studying various flags, trying to find the one flag I need. But I can’t really figure it out.
Is lgbtq+ the preferred term, or what should I use? Is a flag better? I don’t want to hurt someone by not including them.
I just use “the LGBTQ community”
If that offends anyone, they’re that 0.00000001% of attention-seeking twats that get upset about anything for the sole reason of making any issue about themselves, no matter what
They are also the loudest, mind you
Like I give a fuck
I hear you loud and clear. I’m probably adding the “+” as well, but I also realize that some people just want to be offended. If I can get people to be offended that I don’t oppress lgbtq+ people, then that’s fine. But I don want to accidentally hurt people by being ignorant.
I’m going to open this in a way that is probably not lending credit to much, but I’m a CIS straight white male.
I’m also Aromantic.
I’m a tiny part of the A at the end of LGBTQIA+, and I have no strong opinions on being left out! I love that we are included at all!
I hit the big supportive events in my community, and occasionally visit a couple of the gay bars while sporting my Aro flag ring and dying my beard in various colors.
I can’t remember where I was going with this comment.
That’s ok, I was distracted by my slight misreading of your second sentence and found myself wondering why you would mention that you smell nice 🙃
Hey OP, can you elaborate on the context for which you are looking to talk about the queer community? I think that matters a bit. There are more formal and more casual descriptions that I do think are important to discuss the differences of use.
For instance, Gender and Sexual Minorities or GSM is probably the most formal you can go with. This might be appropriate for corporate DEI, but you will get absolutely roasted on social media if you refer to gay people that way. (It’s very clinical, not really something the community uses, but it’s a wide umbrella)
LGBT(QIA+) is a little old school nowadays, a mouthful, and always feels a bit like you’re always going to be missing some letters. If a cishet ally used any variety this, I’m not going to be offended and I’d appreciate that they’re trying- it’s clear that the intention is there and it’s better to signal support imperfectly that be silent imo. This one usually comes up most frequently around Pride Month as there’s a lot more visibility on our community from those who are not in it.
The queer community is probably your best all-purpose use but may not work 100% in formal situations as “queer” has historically been a pejorative. Boomers tend to look at you funny when you use it, and some younger folks who don’t think that slurs can ever be reclaimed can sometimes be put off as well. That said, it’s probably what the majority of the community uses as an umbrella term. This is the one I’d use when chatting with friends. “Gay” can also be used as a substitute for “queer” in this context as many folks will also use that as an umbrella term, but this can be confused with discussing just gay men, so you may have to know your audience.
I had a presumed cishet friend in high school who just used “homosexual”. I wouldn’t recommend. All of the formality of GSM, none of the inclusion.
Other things I would not recommend: alphabet mafia (unless you’re on tiktok), anything that is still generally considered a slur (some folks are reclaiming the f-slur, t-slur and d-slur but I would consider that a deeply personal choice of self expression and not something for cishet folks to use at this time, unless personally invited to use to describe only that person), and lastly, using any of these broad identifiers to refer to specific people who have shared their specific label with you (ie don’t call someone a queer woman when they have told you they identify as bisexual, or a queer man if they said they are a trans man, etc. Some people do identify as queer though, so if they have said as much you can use that specifically then).
That’s a lot of minutia but I think the important thing is, the community generally knows when you are trying your best. Even if you accidentally offend someone, just asking what they would like to be referred to in the future is probably all you need to worry about.
Thanks for your elaborate reply, of which I disagree with nothing!
I have been editing my post for the entire day, and one thing I was debating with my self was how much context to provide. One thing is I want to solicit replies, not bore people to death. Another thing is that if I go through with my idea, some may be able to doxx me.
But “on with the context” I hear you think :-) I work with young people mainly. We’re talking 16-25 year olds primarily. Lately I’ve become aware of how my older coworkers (not that I’m young either, but the others are older) approach especially trans people. Some of the other young people we work with will echo this. And I’ve had it! I’ve decided to become a bit more aggressive in my opposition to this “oppression light” that I see. I wanted to get those “respect my trans homies, or I’ll identify as a fucking problem”. I like the message and the trans people I’ve consulted seem to agree that it’s pretty funny … BUT! I can’t wear the word “fucking” on my clothing, and I don’t want to limit the message to only include trans people.
So I’m trying to figure out, how to display something to the same effect, but with more minorities included. Being the dumb fuck I am, I wanted to make sure that I don’t hurt people, by being ignorant of the meaning of some term or excluding someone. And just asking the usual lgtbq+ people in my circles would not give me a representative answer. I might get some t-shirts made, it may be badges, or something entirely different IDK, I’m working on it.
It seems like in this situation, it’s reasonable to just use the word “trans”. I really appreciate how much thought you’re putting in to inclusiveness, but it seems like it isn’t the queer community at large who your older coworkers are struggling to accept, but specifically trans people.
I don’t know all the details, but I would recommend two things:
First, you need to help trans people feel safe while they’re in your place of work. They are the people who are at the center of this conversation, not you and not your older coworkers. Get a small Progress Flag and put it somewhere in your workspace where it is visible to the public and also clearly associated with you. Your goal here is to put up a little flag that says “if you’re in the queer community, come to me and I will make you comfortable”. These statements of inclusiveness are aimed to the public, not your coworkers–your coworkers already know that you’re an ally because they know who you are and what kind of actions you do, but the general public doesn’t have that luxury so this is where your efforts for inclusiveness should be focused.
Second, if you do want to buy clothes or accessories to show your older coworkers that you support trans identities and try to change their minds about doing the same, make sure you support trans artists when you do so :) don’t “get them made”, buy them from a trans artist who has already made them. Not only will you be financially supporting the people you want to support, but you’ll also be elevating the voice of an actual trans person–which I think is what you wanted to do when you made this post.
That being said, hostile phrasing like “I’ll identify as a problem” may not be the best way to change someone’s mind. I don’t know a lot about your coworkers, but you might be the only person to ever speak to them with empathy about empathy for trans people. You’ve got an opportunity here to prove wrong the stereotypes about “screaming SJWs”, stereotypes that are so baked in to our society that they have even managed to enter the discussion we’re having here. In a world like the one that we live in, kindness and patience are radical and powerful tools, if we choose to use them.
tldr: I want to come off as a little aggressive - not enough to start a fight necessarily, but enough to catch coworkers attention. In the meantime the pride colors are already flying in a prominent position.
I see what you mean about the hostility. But to be honest, I’m aiming at being a bit aggressive. The people I want to influence are so used to hear soft messages, that they pay no attention if you don’t force a slight edge in their faces. Besides, I’m done seeing trans kids, who have done nothing wrong, be met with dead sexing by boomers who are so frigging well aware of the kid’s gender identity. It’s like that episode of Fawlty Towers, except it’s actually happening in front of you and instead of being funny it’s incredibly cringy and you start to feel sorry for the kid.
I love everything you’ve said, I just want to add to that last point - while kindness and patience are radical and powerful tools, and people, allies especially, should try to lead with those, expecting (not that you implied it, just saying) marginalised people to be patient and kind in the face of bigotry is the height of privilege and often slips in to tone policing. People need to understand that anger is a valid reaction and part of the education, and that discomfort is essential to growth.
Absolutely, and thanks for pointing this out! I don’t have anything to add, I just wanted to let folks know that you’re 100% correct.
<3
“respect my trans homies, or I’ll identify as a fucking problem”
LOL I LOVE this!! Maybe you could change it to “respect my trans homies, or I’ll identify as a ducking problem” or “pucking froblem”.
As a 70 year old lesbian, one thing I’ve long believed and believe now more than ever is that the most radical thing anyone in the queer community has ever done is simply come out in their daily life. Then live their life as an out person, whatever they are out as, and to the greatest extent possible. So to you, thank you for coming out as an ally, and I hope you do so loudly and daily. It can take courage.
Queer is a great umbrella term, but it still originates fairly recently as a hated slur, which suggests queer people have more right to use it than not-so-queers. Thirty five years ago I was friends with a lesbian couple in their 60s who HATED the term dyke, and were highly perturbed when I joyfully embraced being a dyke, because “dyke” had been such a horrible slur when they were young. But now my generation was reclaiming the term.
First off, thank you for chiming in. I feel that most of my IRL input has been from gen z, and I appreciate your input for both the diversity it brings, as well as the insights. That said, I will never ever be able to use the d-word, it feels almost as wrong as using racial slur.
“Queer” has been suggested a couple of times. But I feel like it’s aggressive towards the wrong group.
How would you feel about the term “rainbow friends”?
So to you, thank you for coming out as an ally,
That made me feel weird. I’m not looking for thanks, I’m just trying to be true to myself and be a decent person towards my fellow people.
and I hope you do so loudly and daily.
Whenever I get the chance :-)
It can take courage.
It may have originally, but not 1% as much courage as the kids who have come out to me as trans when they saw an ally, or the courage you showed when you came out as lesbian. I’m a CISHET white man, I’m as safe as I can be. The kids OTH need a safe space to question themselves, and will do my best to provide that space for them.
My two cents as a trans person: The Q (queer) is an umbrella term for everyone who didn’t fall under L G B or T, so adding anything after that is just unnecessary and begging for right wingers to make a joke out of it.
So “LGBTQ” is safest, but most of the time I just say “LGBT” tbh
I get where you’re coming from, but what about the wide swath of people in this post, who are not covered by the term? Like aromantics and asexuals?
begging for right wingers to make a joke out of it
Who’s to say I’m not kinda looking for it? Come at me, I’m angry, I sorta want a fight. I can hold my own in a debate, and if I can get you to expose your obsolete and inhumane views by attacking me, then YOU are the one who’s outed.
aromantics and asexuals
They’re covered by the term “queer” too because they’re not heterosexual. And if anyone identifies as “agender” they’d be covered by the Q too, since they’re not cisgender.
I’m angry, I sorta want a fight
I don’t think we have anything to fight about lol
I don’t want to fight either!
Speaking as an aromantic though, I am very heterosexual. I just don’t enjoy all the lovey dovey squishy romantic things… Holding hands is mostly ok, anything beyond that kinda grosses me out. (Kissing is so weird…) I very much enjoy most of the more intimate physical things though.
Many aromantics enjoy physical relationships, but don’t understand the more romantic aspects of them.
I’m not looking to fight anyone here. I’m sorry if I came across way. I want to stop my boomer coworkers from hurting LGTBQ people in our organization, and if that resolves in me debating my coworkers then that’s a fight I’m not gonna back down from… #imactuallynotverybadassjustextremelytired
I want to stop my boomer coworkers from hurting LGTBQ people
As a 70 year old lesbian, I’d like to suggest you might find some more allies in your organization, please don’t assume all boomers are bigots. I have many grey haired allies. I doubt you’re as alone as you think you are, but maybe you’re just more “out” than they are. Give them the chance to come out and join you.
Do you call them boomers to their faces?
Last time I did was today, but that was in a teasing funny setting, and to a person I hold a great deal of respect for.
I wouldn’t in a discussion, I hate name calling, it’s counter productive. But in my mind…
But it exists in your head, right? Like you have mentally categorised an age of people as boomers, and you’re associating a behaviour with that category?
The reason I say is that age is also a protected category…
Hmm I guess you’re right… I hadn’t thought of it that way before.
I think I describe the behavior more than the age group, but I still see what you’re saying. Thanks for call me out on it.
Oooh I see what you meant now lol. But yeah, I feel you.
What’s funny is that a lot of my coworkers would shit-talk trans people until they learned I was transitioning. Now all of the sudden they’re more nuanced and understanding 🤔
I’m aro/ace and I don’t really say anything more than LGBT or LGBT+ myself. I’m not really a fan of the whole alphabet soup acronym, it doesn’t make conversation any easier. I don’t speak for everyone though, some people clearly like the name including everyone. Personally I tend to even omit the + or Q after the first time of saying because otherwise it’s still a mouthful.
I go with lgbt. Those who know all the letters, know all the letters. Those who don’t will make fun of you for listing out more letters.
I’m not saying lgbtqia2s+ fuck no. It’s cringe af
I agree that in an effort to be as inclusive as possible we have created a completely unmarketable acronym. That matters because we are still having to defend our very existence to a lot of people whose bigotry is being gathered up and weaponized politically against us.
As an lgbtqia+ person, I say screw 2S. That’s so silly.
What about “rainbow people”? I kinda like it, the letters can quickly become unmarketable cringe while still not include everyone.
The best term you can use is just “the queer community”. It’s a broad and vague word that asks no questions and offers no answers beyond “these people have sexual orientations and/or gender identities that are not exclusively heterosexual and/or cisgender”. It’s gender-neutral unlike the previous catch-all term “gay”. It includes people who were originally excluded and unrepresented by the original LGBT acronym, such as intersex and third-gendered people. It also includes people who find it culturally difficult to put a label on what they do, such as same-gender-loving Black people who don’t call themselves “gay”.
That being said, it is not always the perfect, use-it-all-the-time panacea that you’re looking for. “Queer” was originally a pejorative term, and although it has been reclaimed as positive terminology since the Stonewall Riot days (think of the chant, “We’re here! We’re queer! Get used to it!”), some older members of the queer community remember it as hurtful.
In addition, sometimes it’s important to be specific. Exclusively using the word “queer” to refer to the queer community flattens the queer experience to one single uniform word, when reality is anything but uniform. For example, when trans people are targeted by executive orders and bathroom bills, it’s important to be specific about who those actions harm: trans people, intersex people, and so on.
For these reasons, while it is safe to use “queer” as a blanket term, some individual people don’t like the term and some individual circumstances call for a more specific word.
As far as your flag question goes, if you’re looking for a visible signal to signpost that you’re a queer ally, you’re probably looking for the Progress Flag. It’s the original rainbow pride flag, but with added representation for trans people, intersex people, people of color, and those who died during the AIDS crisis.
It’s gender-neutral unlike the previous catch-all term “gay”.
Exposing my own ignorance here, but is “gay” necessarily gendered? I had thought that lesbian women sometimes identified as “gay”, is that not the case? No offence meant, genuinely interested.
I don’t think there’s a contradiction there, a term being gendered isn’t all-or-nothing. Certainly, some men attracted to men identify as gay, as well as some lesbian women, and even some bisexual folks of any gender. In that way it isn’t exclusively gendered.
But if I say “the gay community”, I’m guessing the image that evokes in your mind leans heavily towards gay men, compared to a phrase like “the LGBTQ+ community”. Even if the speaker means the same thing by those phrases, the listener likely interprets them differently.
Fair point, I agree a lot of people probably would think that way, although on a personal level, I would say that if I heard “the gay community” my reaction would be to consider it to mean both gay men and lesbian women. Not sure if it’s different in different places though (UK here), maybe there are geographic differences too?
Anyway, thanks for the good answer :-)
“Gay” is either gendered or not the same way that “guy” and “dude” are either gendered or not.
Exposing my own ignorance here, but is “gay” necessarily gendered?
The difficulty of answering that question, and the fact that both “yes” and “no” are both valid answers that individual people of every gender could sincerely give, are two of the reasons why “queer” has become more popular than “gay” as an umbrella term. The people who do think “gay” as an umbrella term is gendered prefer the word “queer”, while the people who don’t think “gay” as an umbrella term is gendered are not upset by the word “queer”.
Another reason that “gay” isn’t used as an umbrella term is because it’s also a specific term. Imagine being a man and saying “I’m gay” and having someone ask you, “ok but are you gay or are you gay gay?”. Sexuality and gender are already sensitive and difficult things to explore, so removing ambiguity from the language surrounding those topics will make things clearer and easier for everyone involved.
That being said, you should always respect the way that people want to be identified. If you know a lesbian woman that identifies as “gay”, then just accept it and use it while understanding that not every lesbian woman will feel the same way.
All really good points - thank you :-)
Noticed that flag on several occasions but never knew what it was called - thanks for sharing!
I personally use “queer folks” as a general catch-all. It used to be a pejorative, but has largely been reclaimed with the whole “we’re here, we’re queer” type messages.
Bunch o puffs, lezzas and scallywags.
BoPLS for short, I assume. Should I add BoPLS+ to be on the safe side?
I need to pronounce this as one word.
Is it bop-els or bo-please?
I tried “you people” but for some reason it didn’t go too well.
I find the full abbreviation to be a bit of a mouthful when speaking, so I sometimes prefer use “rainbow”, for example in the context of “rainbow rights” instead. I consider it as inclusive as can be, and people understand what I mean.
I’m a cis straight man, so I may have missed something.
I liked rainbow too. But it would seem that some of the other commenters have a strong issue with “rainbow people” as it have been used dismissive towards them.
A one size fits all label seems impossible to find for this diverse group of fellow humans.
The LBGTQ : pronounced The luh-buh-guh-tuh-quah
The alphabet mafia
Or the southern version : all y’all
I’ve always thought we should use “plus” as in the + at the end of lgbt. It’s short, easy, all inclusive and has a built in positive association.
Not being part of that community myself, I don’t carry any weight in this debate, but I do like this suggestion a lot - the Plus community sounds kinda cool.
Only problem is that if it were written as “+”, that might also be read as “positive”, which might then lead to ‘hilarious’ jokes about HIV.
Nonetheless, I think it’s a good idea, if that was what the people involved wanted of course.
GSRM
Gender, sexual, romantic minority.
deleted by creator
GRRM
A Song of Inclusion and Diversity
Personally I prefer just “sexual minority” as LGBTQ comes with political backage that I prefer not to be associated with.
“L G that thing there that gets more letters every few weeks”
Here’s what I use:
- LGBT+ most formal (and old fashioned)
- LGBTQ+ less formal
- “people” most inclusive
