A federal judge in West Virginia has ruled that the state corrections agency can’t force an incarcerated atheist and secular humanist to participate in religiously-affiliated programming to be eligible for parole.
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The fact it’s had to go that far is psychotic.
This reminds me of one of my favorites quotes, which is about the 2020 US presidential election, and I’m not even from the USA, but it’s suitable in so much scenarios in life: “It shouldn’t be this close.”
Even as a Christian myself, I agree with you. Separation of Church and State. Politics mixing with religion has been terrible for both.
Politics mixing with religion has been terrible for both.
No it hasn’t. Religions benefit almost immeasurably from infiltrating politics in so many ways, ranging from exemption from all discrimination laws, to having their private schools funded by tax money, to controlling the majority of hospitals in the country, to being allowed to rape and marry children consequence free.
Eh, that’s the church as an institution. I mean religion in the more abstract sense. Political leanings becoming tied to a religious stance has become ridiculous, and has watered down Christianity quite a lot, to the point where even Trump gets to go pray once a year and call himself the Christian vote. It’s also been remarkably divisive, as naturally, a lot of Christians aren’t that, and hot political debates somehow become religious debates.
Tying religion to politics has allowed politics to slowly pull that horse further and further, to the point where “Christianity” now means southern fundamentalism to a lot, maybe even most, people. I think without political influence, we’d be a lot closer today to how Christianity started, and is meant to look.
Not that I disagree with the sentiment that things would be better for all of us if thr GOP hadn’t courted the religious right, but I did want to mention that Christianity in the 1st century looked a lot different than it has in the 20th or now.
The religion has changed dramatically over the years. And it was usually a collection of disparate sects. The new testament canon as we know it wasn’t agreed upon until around 400, and the standardization of mainstream belief, the Nicene Creed, had only been adopted a generation before.
And of course the split during the Reformation in the 1500s changed white a bit. Even decade by decade you see different movements, changed in interpretation (slavery being ok vs not), and such.
We don’t have any of the original biblical sources, and none of them are believed to be writings directly from Jesus or his disciples themselves. What we have is filtered through other parties and further filtered through the canonization processes (OT and NT both).
So it’s a bit tough to really pin down what Christianity was “meant to be”. But I wished it wasn’t what it is in many parts of the US.
Well it is, look at Malaysia for example
Edit. Ok you’re being sarcastic lol
No sarcasm. These are all reality in the US right now. Feel free to fact check.
Lmao I guess that’s the same for us either
Let me try a different argument:
The separation of church and state has forced American denominations to compete in a marketplace for souls/money, and they have become ruthlessly efficient corporatized entities, using marketing and business-process management, and exploiting tax advantages and high switching costs.
Meanwhile, in Europe, you have official state Catholicism or Protestantism-flavors, which are moribund, inspire little passion, and most everyone is either atheist, agnostic, or un-passioned.
The separation of church and state has forced American denominations to compete in a marketplace for souls/money, and they have become ruthlessly efficient corporatized entities, using marketing and business-process management, and exploiting tax advantages and high switching costs.
This is not a product of separation of church and state, but of the atrocious combination of hyper-capitalism and tax exemption for religious organizations.
Such an interesting statement. I can kind of see what you mean. Would you happen to have more reading material on this topic? It would be very appreciated.
Yeah it is one of the unexpected results. It is an imperfect analogy but Europe Christianity has become a domesticated animal that knows not to cause trouble. American Christianity is a mean badass sewer rat that not only fends for itself but can’t be killed. I really doubt anyone could have predicted this before it happened.
Politics mixing with religion has been terrible for both.
This statement presupposes that religion hasn’t always been inherently political. Religion is nothing if not a tool for control.
Absolutely. It’s hard to conceive of something that has been more damaging to society than Abrahamic religion.
The country was founded of freedom of religion by the fanatics who were too fanatical for England.
No certain colonies were founded by zealots too fanatical for England and the Netherlands, the country was founded by slave owning wealthy people
When will this myth die
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The Founders were steeped in the Age of Enlightenment. Modern Americans wouldn’t even recognize it as Christianity. Like The Jefferson Bible
… completed in 1820 by cutting and pasting with a razor and glue numerous sections from the New Testament as extractions of the doctrine of Jesus. Jefferson’s condensed composition excludes all miracles by Jesus and most mentions of the supernatural, including sections of the four gospels that contain the Resurrection and most other miracles, and passages that portray Jesus as divine.
You could label their morality puritanical but I think cynicism would also equally apply. If you view humans as naturally greedy and selfish, society needs to codify expected behavior to keep it in check.
their morality
Jefferson raped other people’s children and sold his own. Washington was not only a slaver but used his victims’ flesh as a cosmetic. (Washington’s famous “wooden” teeth were actually harvested from enslaved humans)
Secular government is a good idea on it’s own, not because 18th century R. Kelly and Leatherface said so.
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Nope. This country was founded on the idea that weathly people shouldn’t have to pay their fair share of taxes.
I assume you have detailed statistics go back up this claim.
Don’t conflate a religion with the religious extremists.
All religion is extremist.
Don’t criminalize abortion and I won’t.
One man’s extremist is another man’s hero.
In the “Big Book,” the foundational document of these programs, “Chapter 4: We Agnostics” tells atheists and agnostics that they are “doomed to alcoholic death” unless they “seek Him.” The chapter characterizes non-believers as “handicapped by obstinacy, sensitiveness, and unreasoning prejudice.”
This really jumped out at me. What a horrible thing to say about someone, especially someone looking for help.
“Unreasoning prejudice” ain’t that just the richest projection you’ve ever seen🤣🤣🤣
Alcoholic death? That’s weirdly specific. I barely even drink. If I do, then I do it to get drunk, but not to comatose type of levels.
The Big Book being discussed in this comment is one of the foundations of the Alcoholics Anonymous program. Hence this warning about alcoholism. AA features a higher power as part of recovery.
I was thinking about going to some AA meetings, was massively put off though by all the bible thumping rhetoric. I don’t want anything to do with the majority of religions.
Am I allowed to drink alcohol as long as I believe in God, I’m not quite I understand their random system of belief.
Also, I guess that drugs are okay?
From what I understand, they appeal to a ‘higher power’ as a part of the 12 steps. Also, there is Narcotics Anonymous, Overeaters Anonymous, and others. The 12-step program, as flawed as we may see it, actually helps a lot of people so I’m not knocking it.
I’ve also heard you can be very relaxed with the higher power ‘as you understand it’, providing a way in for agnostic/atheistic members. I don’t have all the info, just what I’ve heard unfortunately.I am just confused by the idea that someone who is not religious is automatically doomed to alcoholism.
The two things are not even on the same continuum, the comment makes no sense.
Also, I guess that drugs are okay?
I mean… sort of?
Great now punish them for trying
As a Latin American, it seems to me that Christian fanaticism is so wide spread in the US it almost feels cartoonish, like the sort of general impression one gets from any cult or fundamentalist religious group. And I’m from Latin America!
It always reminds me of North Korea, or China. No matter what else you do, you must be seen to believe in the right thing or else you are some kind of evil deviant.
What the religion or belief system is actually is is about is almost irrelevant. The important thing is to believe, understanding it is entirely not required and almost frowned upon.
The United States was founded by people who were already upset they couldn’t be as fanatical/evangelical as they wanted.
No, a few North American colonies were founded by people who were already upset they couldn’t be as fanatical/evangelical as they wanted.
The United States was founded mostly by Deists and folks influenced by Enlightenment philosophy, several hundred years later.
So while I’m all for this, think about the person trying to get a parole board to write off on their parole. Even if the person is in the right I can only imagine that it’s still in that person’s best interests to at least act the good christian because the parole board can deny them for any reason with no need to explain.
American society is so fucked.
Yeah, but it sounds like they already crossed that line. Once that happens, may as well stick up for your rights. Regardless of whether they went through the program. The corrupted parole board will already prejudge them as a bad person for not believing in their version of their god.
You also get special privileges if you’re religious in prison, like better food if you’re keeping Kosher or Halal and being let out of your cell to go to religious services. Even if you’re an atheist, I could see why you would pretend.
We have more work to do than I used to think.
Good. I have grown tired of the brainwashed reformed criminal that spends all his time being overly aggressive about religion and downright hateful with it.
I fucking love this guy. Fuck RSAT and fuck the WV DOC. The whole thing is a mess. Prison reform, now!
