Not hating on open source, just let people use what fits their expectations and needs and stop deterring them with gatekeeping :P
UX = user experience
This meme just explained the post meme to me
Scatterbrained me sometimes forgets to add more context, because I forget other people can’t see what’s been going on in my head prior. Now you know how people at work feel when interacting with me.
Or when I do a “by the way…” remark to something that was discussed hours before and nobody knows what I’m referring to.
My brain could be used to feed entropy to /dev/urandom
Jokes on you your brain is only psuedo-random and I have its seed value.
I relate so much to this. The funny thing is I probably would get your references lol.
FOSS is great but also developers’ gotta eat
Amen. And he got screwed from the Reddit api fiasco. If i remember correctly he was on the hook for as much as $250k in refunds because he’s had to shut the app down and refund subscribers.
The guy has to make a living, so I don’t begrudge him that one bit.
How fucking bad does your math need to be to not realize that 250k in refunds for a 6 month period where the app is unusable equals 250k in revenue for the first 6 months of the year? All y’all are like “dev needs to eat, he deserves our support!” and the guy’s pulling down over 500k/year.
That was Apollo, not Sync.
I’m pretty sure he already made millions from the app.
So he should start working for free? Or just retire and not create an app that many people enjoy?
Neither. I didn’t say anything. But since you challenge me to say something, I’d say since he’s very likely financially very secure, he could look for ways to monetize that do not mine user data.
The data it collects is purely from Google’s ad services. Removing ads removed all data collection as well from what other users with duck duck go were measuring.
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That’s our bar here? That someone who has put in years and years of hard Dev effort, every day, built up a community, took risks, etc, should just be happy he has food on the table?
Fuck that noise. I don’t care if he’s already s multi millionaire, he can charge whatever he wants, and we can choose to pay it or not. The man is running a business model here. He’s not done weekend warrior FOSS hacker. He deserves to be paid for his efforts.
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People can spend money on both, you know. There’s no hard rule that they have to be mutually exclusive.
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Listen mate. The issue here isn’t that people are saying that devs are starving. It’s that people here are some how associating someone who is (ostensibly)comfortable in life with the Bourgeois. You are not a class traitor for working your ass off on a product that many of your fellow Proletariats enjoy. Quite the opposite in fact. The real Bourgeois are the people who own the very server farms the app lives on. The real Bourgeois are the owners of the land the server farms live on. They are the people who are so rich you forget they exist.
I love the idea of Lemmy itself being FOSS but individual instances and apps being a competitive marketplace of for profit businesses.
That way profitable entities with skin in the game can contribute back to the core, as can anyone, while ensuring the communities exist on servers that actually have some kind of monetization.
developers’ what
I don’t think apps have to be FOSS. It’s super important for libraries, frameworks and other infrastrucuture related stuff to be FOSS, but you can always change a client.
I totally agree! I would much rather use lemmy with a proprietary client than reddit with a FOSS client. But when I have the choice to install something from f-droid instead of aurora store, its an easy choice. Also, wefwef works perfectly for me, so why install anything at all xD
I use sync, but I think they still should be FOSS, or at least open source. Just because when anything gets left behind or never fixed, you can take it and patch it up yourself. That includes clients too, lots of good clients that get left behind because Dev stopped and whatever they were interfacing with changed.
The three stages of a long-term FOSS user:
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How the fuck do I do anything? I’m so lost.
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I’ve somewhat mastered how to use it and became a power user. I’m happy about this, I’ve developed a sense of superiority over those who don’t use it, and will now promote it constantly to others like a goddamn cult. My SO has left me and my family has disowned me, but I don’t care, they are too ignorant to be as enlightened as I am.
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(A decade or two later) I don’t even give a fuck anymore what somebody uses, this still works for me, and what works for you, works for you. Let’s just all coexist. OS and app development models don’t mean shit, common standards and protocols between them do. As long as I, a Linux user, can email a PNG to a Mac user and they can open it, we’re good.
It’s been like this since the mid-90s. Most of the people who are being annoying about it are in stage 2.
I have the (perhaps irrational) fear that sitting too comfortably in stage 3 leads to the kind of complacency that allows things like Web Environment Integrity to escape the “shower thought” phase.
On principle I believe that people shouldn’t feel forced to restrict themselves to FOSS - I use Steam and barely ever pirate games
(ignore my Lemmy instance I guess); however, I think people should put some effort in understanding the consequences of always choosing the path of least resistance, at the very least.That’s not an issue with FOSS vs proprietary, but with large corporations needing to be broken up.
FOSS isn’t immune to that, its a known thing that large corporations can use their dominance of a market segment to infiltrate even totally open standards and make demands with the threat of leaving the standard (and therefore resigning it to becoming irrelevant).
This is especially true of web standards. Chromium is FOSS, yet Google can use its absolute dominance in the market place to force through changes to things like HTTP standards (also FOSS). My understanding is Microsoft and Google both have strong-armed stuff into C++ in the past as well
And then
- Network effects matter, supporting open source software promotes its adoption and lowers barriers to entry for technological literacy and accessibility, accelerating the technological and social development of humanity
Although that doesn’t have the same ring as “fuck these dumb cult members because i don’t care and they shouldn’t either”.
Spot on. For that matter, this is the pattern I’ve seen in computers since the 80s.
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What version of Linux or unix are you using on your phone?
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Nice. I may make a move to something like that soon as my phone is getting near the end.
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Unfortunately I don’t know how in your case as I’m not even on Lemmy, I’m on Kbin.
This is a prime example of my last point though. Interoperability is all that matters, and we can still communicate even using completely different servers and apps. Just like email. I don’t remember there being giant internet flamewars over email clients back in the day, people thought of email as “just email” and it didn’t matter what you used.
I’m at 3 and it’s been quite annoying all these posts about people pushing Sync glory, saying that every other app is basically a buggy garbage (I’m exaggerating). Like, dude, I enjoy the other apps and I am not having bugs, can you enjoy your app without belittling others? Thanks?
Maybe the reason some people are pissy with Sync is because even with their community blocked it’s bloody everywhere on the all feed. Like guys I get it you like it but pls stop.
Launch hype is always like that. Give it a week and things will settle down.
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I just wish people would stop making software choice their whole personality
I use Arch Linux btw
I use Microsoft Windows, because I like a challenge 😎
F
Well windows is my primary work computer , since its office provided , however setting up things is so hard on windows , installing packages and all ! Although since recently chocolatey package manager has been good !
same
Linux Mint user, I hope that’s not a problem
Perfect response.
Apparently that’s the only thing a lot of Lemmy users do
Same tbh this weird hive mind mentality thing I was happy to leave behind on reddit only to come to pretty much the same thing with a different coat of paint.
Most people don’t even think about software, they will happily use whatever came on their device by default. The next time you buy a new phone or laptop and it is crammed full of trash software it is because people DO NOT think about software choices at all.
It’s important, especially in the early days of Lemmy that we set good groundwork for the infrastructure we’re going to use for the next 10 years or so.
By it’s nature, it certainly seems like there will be a wide variety of apps for accessing Lemmy.
I’m far more concerned about if Lemmy will be a thing for the next 5…let alone 10 years, than making sure everyone decides on the app I feel is the right one.
Don’t forget this is a community built around Open Source software with many refugees who came because proprietary apps were forced on them.
The Lemmy protocol is open source and you’re free to use an open source solution. You’re free to use sync for Lemmy in much the same way you can run a Spotify client in Linux. One does not destroy the other.
Tldr if you don’t like it, don’t use it.
Yeah yeah, but OP made a post about it so I thought I’d add some of the reasoning behind people being that way. I don’t care what app people use as long as I can use the one I like.
You’re free to use sync for Lemmy in much the same way you can run a Spotify client in Linux. One does not destroy the other.
I don’t understand these mini-Stallmans and their identical attitudes like this. One Stallman is enough, please develop a personality and realize that things do come in shades of grey.
I contribute to FOSS projects & I love Linux and have been using it professionally for a couple of decades, but I’m never going to stand up an LDAP server on it when Active Directory exists, the same way I’m never going to use Windows as a Docker host or a network load balancer.
Use the best tool for the job, don’t be a zealot.
The mini Stallmans have been waiting for the Mach kernal for 4 decades, it was bound to drive them a little crazy.
As much as those atrocious combinations give me the shivers, especially docker on Windows, we really should be advocating for the freedom of choice (even if that choice might be the wrong one). People should be free to do what they want, and such freedom should be celebrated.
literally no one is forgetting about that - And the great thing about Lemmy is that no one will ever be forced to use an app they don’t want to use, whether it be closed source or open source.
What OP is (rightly) complaining about, is the huge amount of holier-than-thou rhetoric that’s plastered all over the front page of Lemmy right now giving users shit for wanting to use a closed source app.
I love FOSS, I’m typing this comment on a linux desktop right this moment (arch, btw) - but sometimes the best tool for a job (by my own completely subjective opinion) is a closed source tool. Using a closed source app to access an open source system isn’t a betrayal of that open source system.
If you personally don’t want to use a closed source solution, or if you specifically think that Sync is a bad solution for any number of possible reasons, then you’re free to continue using open source solutions, I really don’t see why so many people care so much about what apps other people are using, Sync existing doesn’t take anything away from open source solutions (except maybe users, but again - you can’t force people to use your software)
the huge amount of holier-than-thou rhetoric that’s plastered all over the front page of Lemmy right now
All I’m seeing in the all frontpage is people glorifying Sync while belittling other apps and complaining about those complainers, Like dude, I have the sync community blocked because while I like that it exists, I don’t want to be force feed with that content, and now I still am because it’s being discussed in other communities.
What’s annoying is the way some people talk about the app, stating that it’s the objective best app ever, like zealots. I don’t give two flying fucks about the price but I swear that the alleged complaints of FOSS users may be in part because of the attitude of other users.
Please link me a single post other than this one that glorifies sync while belittling FOSS apps (not that this one belittles Foss apps in the slightest) - preferably with more than a dozen upvotes
Because I posted a screenshot in this thread with five of the top 10 posts on my front page being the exact opposite, and I really don’t believe you when you say that you’re being spammed with “sync zealots”
People like Sync, but it’s the haters that are being spammy and obnoxious about it, not it’s users
I have a problem with writing text that doesn’t read negative or angry, so a little disclaimer beforehand: it’s not :D
I see your point, I don’t tell them to change or not to embrace open source.
I like open source for various reasons (especially for learning), but not everything I use has to be open source by default.
I also understand the reasoning behind apps like Sync to remain private (non-paying user btw). If you put so much effort into a project you can go two routes: release it public or keep it closed and try to monetize it. When I use an open source app extensively and it brings value to my workflow or makes my daily tasks easier I’ll throw a few bucks their way (or a server license once), but how many really do that? If you release your app publicly with the option to pay or to see ads to, some people could just fork it and re-release it, stripped of both monetization models that were intended as support for the developer. (Again, from the point of view of a developer that wants to see some return for their investment of time.)
In my point of view we have the benefit of an open platform (unlike reddit). If any dev of a proprietary client fs up, you can change it without repercussions. Unless all instances suddenly decide to restrict API access or make their API pay-to-use all at once, we won’t see a shhow like with Reddit.
Sometimes I want something that works as expected and gives me a pleasant/polished experience when using it.
Forgive my exaggeration, but I usually don’t use my free time to look through the code of every program I want to use, at some point we reach that “I’ve read the TOS” problem", feels like no one even reads that anymore.
I am currently using Sync, and while I agree that the UX is better I can also understand why so many on the Fediverse are against similar apps. They are here because corporations have ruined every other good thing on the internet and non-FOSS is very much associated with big corporations. While I would prefer that Sync were FOSS I also see the reality of Western society and how untenable creating an app would be without some kind of ad revenue. A majority of people are notoriously stingy and donations can only get you so far.
Also, Sync is one dev working full time by himself, not a big corp.
Reddit was two guys, YouTube was a small group of friends. Things grow fast, especially with a subscription price as high as Sync.
Sync has been a one man show for over a decade. Just how fast did you have in mind?
He also has always asked and worked with his community for what they want. I’ve been on Sync since 2014 and have nothing tying me to it, but the fact when I had issues he responded personally and got it fixed, really made an impression. I remember back when he took a break for a couple years to work on his degree, he came back swinging hard on this project.
I’ll gladly leave the app if it ever doesn’t have my interests in mind. However that time has not yet arrived.
These people aren’t arguing in good faith. They’re just stretching for any strawman they can to justify the fact that they don’t want to spend money or see ads. In other words “Do a bunch of work for me to benefit from for free”.
Sync has been good to me for the better part of a decade and after a little while on the free app I will most likely end up paying. He has earned it.
Reddit was two originally, but they had to bring in Aaron Swartz to get it working correctly. He was working on his own similar thing at the time, and was able to insert his code into their idea.
Then he did the typical Aaron Swartz thing, and got bored moved on to his next shiny project and got ousted for failure to do his job.
No shade to anyone who uses Sync, but the egregious thing to me is the price. Sync isn’t making the content, just like Reddit wasn’t, and they’re setting the price at a level that it feels like that’s what you’re paying for.
Any comparison to other software makes this pretty clear. If it were $4.99, I’d say that’s relatively fair, but charging 1/3rd of the cost of a new video game for an app that took less than 1/3rd of the resources to produce seems a bit absurd.
People can spend their money however they want, but I also don’t think it’s completely uncalled for to criticize the company for what appears to be price gouging.
The one time payment to remove ads is 20$.
People are really overblowing the price. As other ppl have mentioned, lemmy is less than a fraction of the user base of reddit.
The 4x price increase isn’t crazy. Devs need to make a living. I talk to Lj every now and then on Discord. Dude has been scrambling since the Reddit shut down to get out a working product. I really don’t think it’s price gouging to spend 20$ for an app I’ll be using for maybe 30-mins to an hour almost every single day.
There is the ad revenue too though. If it is impossible to make a living and work on these apps with either reasonable app pricing or no ads, then why is Sync the only app for Lemmy with these strings attached?
I just don’t understand what makes Sync significantly different or more expensive to produce than every other app available right now.
Bro it’s just a great fucking app, specifically for the design and user experience.
Also I (very loosely) know Lj and want to support his work.
You absolutely do not need to use Sync! Enjoy Lemmy through your app of choice!!
To be totally clear, I really am not intending to throw any shade towards users of the app. My opinion about the price is not a judgment on the users.
I am glad to hear that it at least provides a premium experience. I just hope ads and expensive apps aren’t going to be the future of accessing Lemmy.
If it is impossible to make a living and work on these apps with either reasonable app pricing or no ads, then why is Sync the only app for Lemmy with these strings attached?
Sync is a “professional” app. The others are mostly hobbyists. That’s the ultimate difference. Same as with Apollo. You had a bunch of open source reddit clients, but a hobby piece of software will seldom outshine a professional product. Sometimes it happens, but that’s the exception not the norm. Sync has been incredibly stable for me over the last day. Memmy on my phone and Connect haven’t been. No shade to the devs, but devs approach a solution differently when that is how they support themselves. Passion can only carry a project so far, speaking as a dev myself.
That makes a bit more sense. I didn’t realize it was being marketed as a professional/enterprise tool.
FOSS apps are hobbies. Sync is LJ’s job and will be better given the refinement it has received over years at reddit.
The lemmy user base is tiny compared to reddit, so the price is higher.
We also seem to be willing to pay it. Personally, I think it’s worth it
As long time sync user I’m very disappointed I didn’t see the remove ads button before I went and signed up for ultra. Wish I could still buy the permanent ad free while being an ultra subscriber. I tie my ultra to my Google play balance and depends on how much opinion rewards decides to give me at any given time.
It may just be a matter of perspective, but to me, fewer users and content should equal lower price, not higher. I understand what you mean about them not getting an equal amount of money from the user base since there are fewer users, but by that same token, those users are getting less content through the app due to the same reason.
Seems like it balances out where both sides should expect less until things pick up over time.
The Sync dev isn’t selling the content.
Supply and demand works the opposite of that. When there’s a niche market then things always cost more. It’s why my baddragon velocoraptor dildo cost me my second mortgage.
Lol, not going to lie, the bad dragon example makes sense.
You don’t have to pay anything to use Sync.
That’s my main hangup as well.
The one time app removal fee should be $10 or less. In line with other premium apps.
And the subscription rates are just bananas.
Cut all the prices in half and I wouldn’t have any issues.
…posted from Sync for Lemmy.
What’s bananas about $3/mo and 17/yr? Hell I pay 12 bucks a year for unlimited email aliases from Firefox 😂
Dude, at least people don’t use Reddit is what I think about this situation.
Sync is great and I’m happy to pay for a quality user experience to support a solo dev.
I’ve read somewhere that
it’s a team and not a solo dev but it was stated in a comment and I’m too lazy to do some research,so I’m sorry for this useless comment.Sync is one guy. Ljdawson. Always has been.
Aight thanks for the correction, I tried to google after my comment but found nothing. I need to scale up my ability to look for information.
I use Linux and tons of other open source software daily. I have published and maintain a number of open source projects, and contribute regularly to others.
I also pay for closed source software and have a few proprietary apps that I sell.
There’s a place for both models, they’re not exclusive.
Everyone is always promoting that app, so I don’t understand why y’all are butthurt when anyone complains about it.
It’s almost like the internet is a collective of different voices and not one unified entity…
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I don’t mind so much that it’s not FOSS. Developer needs paying, fair enough
I want an app without an egregious Privacy Policy that doesn’t bundle code that shares “Usage Data” with advertisers
I installed sync yesterday, and it’s nice. It’s very usable without paying for it. In fact, the only reason I could see paying at all is to support the creator. The ads are negligible. I had to look for them to notice em. Basically if you don’t wanna use it, don’t. Not very complicated imo. There’s other apps and the web browser. Your paying for the interface not the content.
I don’t like that it doesn’t have top comment navigation (or I can’t find it) and when you click on a inbox message it takes you to that message isoalted in a thread, no context. Again, I might be missing something here…
I was literally just realizing that now. I just checked inbox for the first time, and it’s pretty annoying. I would mind less if there was at least the entire comment chain within that top comment, cause I often forget what the hell I even said. I was using jerboa before, and there are features I’m really really missing. Sync would be great for perpetual lurker, but I’m addicted to commenting lol. No post creation also a drag, so I’ll just use sync and jerboa in tandem for now.
This may be just my own individual experience, but the ads were worse before he released the first patch. Now I barely see any ads unless like you said I’m looking specifically for them. Although I’m used to RIF which had the same amount of frequency in ad space so I might be slightly biased.
Obligatory xkcd comic.
Mega corporations are apparently equivalent to solitary, independent developers now.
Seems so, sadly.
Apparently for some every developer should work only for love and affection from their cardboard box and release their software as a free-for-all, but at least feature-complete before they starve, or else it gets a negative review.
You do know that it’s possible to charge for, pay for and financially support open source software, right? There are even things like Patreon as well.
Most people don’t do that. Look at the donor count for Lemmy World vs DAU.
LJ (dev of Sync) has had a patreon for years. The patrons pale in comparison to the people who used Sync for Reddit, and I’m sure Lemmy as well. Patron-types are outliers among outliers.
My point about still being able to charge stands. I’ve seen OSS do it - if you want it quick and convenient you pay e.g. through Google Play store or official website. Yes cheapskates will compile it themselves or fork it or grab a free version from F-droid etc but they were probably going to pirate it if it was closed software anyway.
Facebook was built using open source software…
People don’t like to make sacrifices today to avoid a potential disaster tomorrow. Especially when that disaster is only theoretical. (See the climate crisis.)
At work I’ve started taking an ‘I told you so’ photo of problems on the day they are identified so I can bring it up at 6 months later when it finally fails. Would recommend.
