To be fair, a person can be highly upset about Trump and uncomfortable (but much less so) about the transgender bathroom thing. Just a reminder that it’s not a binary world and people are allowed to be imperfect.
Tolerance is a social contract: if all parties abide by it and tolerate the others, it holds. But if a party breaks it by denying some other (compliant) party tolerance, they forfeit their own right to receiving tolerance. They must not be tolerated, if that social contract is to be upheld.
Bigotry and tolerance are opposing forces. You cannot value one without rejecting the other. Bigotry must be as repulsive to you as tolerance is important. If you’re fine with bigots, that means tolerance isn’t that important to you.
From the perspective of those on the receiving end of bigotry, that looks a lot like enabling the bigots: if you could take a stance against it, but won’t, you’re complacent at best and complicit at worst. “I don’t care enough about you to compromise my unwillingness to take a stance.”
That isn’t the same as people who grew up with rigid gender norms (like most of us) and are in the progress of deprogramming. You can despise the mentality they were raised with, but if they’re actively trying to separate from it, that hate doesn’t need to extend to them. Nobody takes issue with people trying to change for the better.
We take issue with the raging mask-off “I’d rather creep on kids and elect a rapist than allow transgender kids to use the validating bathroom” bigots, which is what the post was about. They’re not “in an evolution”, bigotry is a part of their identity.
If and when they change course, they’ll fall into the previous group and we’ll be happy to help them. But until then, they’re the enemy, and anyone justifying their bigotry is an enabler.
the “Why should I pay for your healthcare” mindset
What does that have to do with the topic? Universal Healthcare is in the common interest, so even if I for whatever reason wanted people whose ideology I reset to be denied basic human rights, it wouldn’t serve me to deny them healthcare.
And I don’t want to deny them basic rights. Awful humans are still humans. They should be granted food, water, shelter, healthcare, opportunities to contribute to society just like everyone else. Denying these on ideological grounds would both risk wrongly catching the “allies” and deny the “opponents” the chance to reform.
Besides, bigotry is easily bred from misery - it’s easier to tell someone “those guys are to blame” when they’re suffering than to convince them those other guys are somehow bad when everything’s fine. Providing basic necessity and the opportunity to prosper would rob intolerance of one of its contributing factors.
I’m “fine” with understanding that attitudes can be temporary and people can grow. We’re all born with human impulses that include a fear of the unknown,
Literally nobody disagreed on that. The questionable bit is this:
which we handle in our own way
If “your own way” is confined to your head without negatively affecting anyone, then I don’t give a shit either. Think what you want, but act with decency and respect.
When “your own way” involves death threats and oppression, that’s where we get problems.
There really is no “maybe” to the question of “Should bigots be allowed to act on their bigotry?” It’s a yes/no question. Two options, mutually exclusive. “Okay, you’re allowed to advocate for the killing of trans people, but only on Fridays and Saturdays” is still allowing bigotry.
We can debate what counts as bigotry, but it doesn’t matter if you’re not willing to oppose it anyway. Apologism is endorsement, in that it obstructs efforts to combat it.
Hopefully you’ll eventually outgrow your need to divide the world into people you condemn and people you haven’t found a reason to condemn yet.
Hopefully the world will outgrow that need. Hopefully we’ll reach a point where nobody has to condemn anyone any more. Hopefully there will come a time where we can all abide by the principles of mutual respect, where nobody calls for the death of gays, heathens, infidels, jews, commies or any other group any more.
Hopefully we’ll reach a world where we can all tolerate each other.
But that’s not the world we live in. The world we live in contains people making those calls. As long as bigotry exists, I will oppose it. As long as there are people defending it, I will condemn them.
If you want that world, get on board and fight for tolerance. Otherwise, kindly shut up and get out of the way.
I’ll say it. The poster you were responding to is a bigot. ‘Tolerance of bigotry’ is itself bigotry, as it breaks the social contract of tolerance in the same way that bigotry does. By validating bigots, you are showing the minorities they target that you accept the bigotry against them and causing the same kind of harm as the bigot did in the first place.
That’s why they said “more upset about”. If rapists running the country isn’t an issue, than someone potentially entering the wrong shitter shouldn’t even be a topic. Just a reminder that mixed (or as I like to call em; regular) toilets exist without issue all over the world. Like since when are rapists stopped by signs? That’s some “you legally can’t steal from me” logic. It’s thinly veiled hostility towards citizens and it’s unacceptable.
I’m not even trans, I’m just sick of this obsoletely irrelevant topic. People would really much rather punch down at some toothless minority, rather than adress any serious issues.
nah actually if you’re “uncomfortable” around trans people you’re just a bigot. they just want to be left alone, and statistically speaking they are the least likely group to harm you. there’s nothing to be uncomfortable about and and anyone who says otherwise is just making excuses for thinly veiled transphobia.
well, rational explanations backed up with sources tends to be met with “I’m not reading that” from the people who would say trans people make them uncomfortable (and many more issues). I remember in middle school I had some shitty opinions, and people made fun of me for them. guess what, I realized pretty quick that if everyone around me thinks my opinions are shit, maybe there’s a chance I could be in the wrong here. I don’t know when we got the idea that people’s shitty opinions are somehow justified as political nuance once they hit 18, but these people have their head so in the sand they will not listen to reason, even when they are met with data showing how their viewpoints harm themselves, people around them, and people they love. this goes for more than the trans debate too, and I’m tired of people saying “oh well maybe if you’re nice to them!”. if you preach hate, expect hate.
you wouldn’t say you feel uncomfortable around disabled people or a specific race or gay people. why is it different when trans people are the target minority? I just fail to see the logic and I guess I’m just annoyed that I see me and my friends very existence being debated every time I go online.
To be fair, a person can be highly upset about Trump and uncomfortable (but much less so) about the transgender bathroom thing. Just a reminder that it’s not a binary world and people are allowed to be imperfect.
We are all aware that not all bigots love Trump.
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Tolerance is a social contract: if all parties abide by it and tolerate the others, it holds. But if a party breaks it by denying some other (compliant) party tolerance, they forfeit their own right to receiving tolerance. They must not be tolerated, if that social contract is to be upheld.
Bigotry and tolerance are opposing forces. You cannot value one without rejecting the other. Bigotry must be as repulsive to you as tolerance is important. If you’re fine with bigots, that means tolerance isn’t that important to you.
From the perspective of those on the receiving end of bigotry, that looks a lot like enabling the bigots: if you could take a stance against it, but won’t, you’re complacent at best and complicit at worst. “I don’t care enough about you to compromise my unwillingness to take a stance.”
That isn’t the same as people who grew up with rigid gender norms (like most of us) and are in the progress of deprogramming. You can despise the mentality they were raised with, but if they’re actively trying to separate from it, that hate doesn’t need to extend to them. Nobody takes issue with people trying to change for the better.
We take issue with the raging mask-off “I’d rather creep on kids and elect a rapist than allow transgender kids to use the validating bathroom” bigots, which is what the post was about. They’re not “in an evolution”, bigotry is a part of their identity.
If and when they change course, they’ll fall into the previous group and we’ll be happy to help them. But until then, they’re the enemy, and anyone justifying their bigotry is an enabler.
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What does that have to do with the topic? Universal Healthcare is in the common interest, so even if I for whatever reason wanted people whose ideology I reset to be denied basic human rights, it wouldn’t serve me to deny them healthcare.
And I don’t want to deny them basic rights. Awful humans are still humans. They should be granted food, water, shelter, healthcare, opportunities to contribute to society just like everyone else. Denying these on ideological grounds would both risk wrongly catching the “allies” and deny the “opponents” the chance to reform.
Besides, bigotry is easily bred from misery - it’s easier to tell someone “those guys are to blame” when they’re suffering than to convince them those other guys are somehow bad when everything’s fine. Providing basic necessity and the opportunity to prosper would rob intolerance of one of its contributing factors.
Literally nobody disagreed on that. The questionable bit is this:
If “your own way” is confined to your head without negatively affecting anyone, then I don’t give a shit either. Think what you want, but act with decency and respect.
When “your own way” involves death threats and oppression, that’s where we get problems.
There really is no “maybe” to the question of “Should bigots be allowed to act on their bigotry?” It’s a yes/no question. Two options, mutually exclusive. “Okay, you’re allowed to advocate for the killing of trans people, but only on Fridays and Saturdays” is still allowing bigotry.
We can debate what counts as bigotry, but it doesn’t matter if you’re not willing to oppose it anyway. Apologism is endorsement, in that it obstructs efforts to combat it.
Hopefully the world will outgrow that need. Hopefully we’ll reach a point where nobody has to condemn anyone any more. Hopefully there will come a time where we can all abide by the principles of mutual respect, where nobody calls for the death of gays, heathens, infidels, jews, commies or any other group any more.
Hopefully we’ll reach a world where we can all tolerate each other.
But that’s not the world we live in. The world we live in contains people making those calls. As long as bigotry exists, I will oppose it. As long as there are people defending it, I will condemn them.
If you want that world, get on board and fight for tolerance. Otherwise, kindly shut up and get out of the way.
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I’ve made a point of differentiating between those that act on intolerance and those that don’t. How do you consider me to be lumping those together?
I’m not a badass. I don’t want to fight. I’ve spent forever on the internet trying to debate, to explain, to reason, and I’m still doing so here.
Yes, being tolerating bigotry makes you a bigot.
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Your question makes no sense.
When did I say you were a bigot?
When did I say I was enlightened?
I’ll say it. The poster you were responding to is a bigot. ‘Tolerance of bigotry’ is itself bigotry, as it breaks the social contract of tolerance in the same way that bigotry does. By validating bigots, you are showing the minorities they target that you accept the bigotry against them and causing the same kind of harm as the bigot did in the first place.
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Obviously. That’s why we’re in this “bathroom” situation to begin with.
whoosh
whoosh
That’s why they said “more upset about”. If rapists running the country isn’t an issue, than someone potentially entering the wrong shitter shouldn’t even be a topic. Just a reminder that mixed (or as I like to call em; regular) toilets exist without issue all over the world. Like since when are rapists stopped by signs? That’s some “you legally can’t steal from me” logic. It’s thinly veiled hostility towards citizens and it’s unacceptable.
I’m not even trans, I’m just sick of this obsoletely irrelevant topic. People would really much rather punch down at some toothless minority, rather than adress any serious issues.
nah actually if you’re “uncomfortable” around trans people you’re just a bigot. they just want to be left alone, and statistically speaking they are the least likely group to harm you. there’s nothing to be uncomfortable about and and anyone who says otherwise is just making excuses for thinly veiled transphobia.
Thanks, Reverend, I’m sure shaking your finger and yelling will be a great way to convert 'em.
well, rational explanations backed up with sources tends to be met with “I’m not reading that” from the people who would say trans people make them uncomfortable (and many more issues). I remember in middle school I had some shitty opinions, and people made fun of me for them. guess what, I realized pretty quick that if everyone around me thinks my opinions are shit, maybe there’s a chance I could be in the wrong here. I don’t know when we got the idea that people’s shitty opinions are somehow justified as political nuance once they hit 18, but these people have their head so in the sand they will not listen to reason, even when they are met with data showing how their viewpoints harm themselves, people around them, and people they love. this goes for more than the trans debate too, and I’m tired of people saying “oh well maybe if you’re nice to them!”. if you preach hate, expect hate.
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you wouldn’t say you feel uncomfortable around disabled people or a specific race or gay people. why is it different when trans people are the target minority? I just fail to see the logic and I guess I’m just annoyed that I see me and my friends very existence being debated every time I go online.
Honestly? I think they would.