On one hand, I absolutely agree with this. It’s human nature to want to avoid such a fate if one can reasonably avoid it. If I had the money and could buy my way out of participation in a fucking war…I’d hate to think that I wouldn’t.
I know it’s their home and things like that…but not everyone cares about those sorts of ties, and they become even less meaningful in death. I’m not saying I condone their actions, just that I understand.
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For sure, that’s what I was commenting on. Can’t speak at all for the one’s accepting the bribes, knowing what it means for their fellow soldiers.
Military pay is shit and you’ve got to make up the difference somewhere.
Living in a warzone isn’t cheap.
Trust me, you’ll find an official to bribe in such a situation in Eastern Europe. This is a PR move, to arrest some from time to time and show that in the news. Happens regularly.
Doesnt have to be Eastern Europe. Plenty of examples of rich people finding ways for their kids to avaoid the draft during Vietnam and WWII in the US.
My dad got out of Vietnam (unwittingly) when my grandparents paid the doctor to give him a bad medical evaluation. He was all hyped to go, only to discover he had… I want to say it was flat feet or something? Basically “you’re no good at marching so you won’t war good”.
Stayed in college, got his masters and then his PhD, then went on to work for a major energy company and move out to the suburbs and live the good life into his golden years. A couple of his high school buddies went and got killed - one in a helicopter crash and another after stepping on a landmine.
When 9/11 happened and I was ready to enlist, he grabbed me by the shoulder and explained the best thing his parents ever did for him was keeping him out of the war.
I only wish every parent had this conversation with their kids. The world would be a better place.
Really glad to hear your grandparents had some sense.
US war fever is stupid.
Covfefe?
What? Don’t criticize. He had his own personal Vietnam!
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It’s not about rich, it’s about rather middle class people somehow allocating a sum to bribe a military commissariat. See the article with 10k$ - it’s a lot in Ukraine, yes, but not what the size of such a bribe would be if only rich people would be doing that.
I don’t understand this comment. Are you saying it’s only fine to dodge the draft when rock people do it?
I’m saying that this is very common in Eastern Europe. It’s not something only rich people do. Not that it’s fine or not.
I would definitely try to get out too. Either by bribes or just fleeing
Ultimately human conflict is meaningless and there’s a non zero chance that you’ll be immortal if you survive the next ten years.
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There was never a draft for the Iraq war. It was all volunteers.
Edit - not saying I agree with anything about the war, but just clarifying that fact - people that joined the military did so voluntarily. No one was coerced or forced to go against their will.
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Revenge is a dumbass reason to join the military.
Definitely agree with you there!
So many lives lost over a stupid “Mission Accomplished” campaign. Fuck Bus
And let’s not forget, the US’ guy in Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai, was a Zelensky-esque darling of the DC Establishment too. He even gave speeches in Congress and was specially honored during the State of the Union. We learned later on that he was corrupt as hell and making a lot of money off of being the US’ puppet. I will not be surprised when a few years have passed and we learn similar things about Zelensky.
The government’s stop-loss policy was a grey area on that point
Can you suggest some articles or search terms to read more about that?
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Thank you.
Well, “I understand” doesn’t mean much here, now does it?!
I understand how many people who are unable to feel the pain of others, including the pain that they cause to others, such as Sociopaths, Psychopaths, Narcissists and so on will, if they think they can get away with it, not at all refrain from causing huge suffering to countless other people if they themselves come out of it better.
And it’s all irrelevant: whilst it’s psychologically easier for them to cause suffering to others (as they feel no guilt) as individuals with agency they’re still the ones who choose to or not-to cause suffering to others: if they act thus they should be punished, if they don’t they should not.
The only thing the “understanding” brings is putting such people higher up the list for surveillance and as suspect when it comes to detecting and punishing the harming of others than people who psychologically find it a lot harder act so because, unlike this group, they feel guilt.
If it’s a crime, do not fire them, lock them up in pris-
President Volodymyr Zelenskyy called the actions “treason” and has initiated criminal proceedings.
Oh. Oh well.
Also, one of the main reasons the Russian army has been underperforming is corruption. Loads of money siphoned, incompetent people getting positions, you name it. Zelenskyy is also making sure the same doesn’t happen in his country and stays on top performance/efficiency wise.
Zelenskyy will go down in history with the likes of all great leaders. The man has risen to legendary status. Once this war is won and Ukraine is free, I hope he gets that much deserved beer and beach vacation.
Slava Ukraina
I can only agree with every single word, but I think he should go the Churchill way, and just find some peaceful and relaxing job once the whole thing is over (I know, Churchill actually stayed around for a while). For one: because he will definitely deserve it; but for two: looking at history (not excluding my own country’s), too many great politicians have fallen into the “…or you live long enough to become the villain” category. I’m rooting hard for Zelenskyy to at least get a draw and not go mad later.
He has said a few times that after the war he’ll retire from politics.
Considering his abysmal approval rating before the war and his huge popularity during it, I think he’ll take the “amazing wartime president” label and happily walk away afterwards.
If history has shown us anything, the politicians you need in wartime and peacetime need very different skillsets.
I love that the guy now being a hardass leader saving his country from a powerful invading force is there because he got famous playing the piano with his penis. What a career path! (Also, watch that video because it’s really funny.)
I think it’s far more likely that, over time, we find out he was pocketing a huge chunk of the wartime aid we US taxpayers are graciously going into further debt in order to fund, like Hamid Karzai and Saddam Hussein, themselves once also darlings of the US war machine.
Ah yes because the money we give them is definitely more than a tiny drop in the lake which is the US military spending.
The key words there are ‘US military spending’.
Canada spends approximately 26 billion a year on their national defense.
The US spends over a trillion, and Congress has approved around 113 billion (and that was way back in March) for Ukraine. That is, by any measure, not a drop in the bucket. It’s unreasonable to argue that all 50 states wouldn’t benefit more from having those funds distributed at the state level. Hawaii in particular comes to mind right now.
Arguably out of all the times pepole should complain about us military spending this is probably the worst .war in ukraine is probably one of the most just conflicts america was invloved in since probably the korean war or perhaps even WW2 . Its pretty rare to have a situation where you can say one side is the bad guy with such a certainity.And its not like they are sending troops or anything.just equipment and ammo ,more often that not american made, which means most of those dollars stays in USA either way.
Alghtough the fact that the usual US military budget is overblown is also true.
Arguably out of all the times pepole should complain about us military spending this is probably the worst .war in ukraine is probably one of the most just conflicts america was invloved in since probably the korean war or perhaps even WW2
Our entire right wing in the US rolls like this. Like literally the only time they scream and shout and threaten is when people are just, competent, knowledgeable, and reasonable. They hate anything that works well and love blanketing the earth in mass misery.
And its not like they are sending troops or anythin
I HATE this argument.
Yeah, we’re not sending soldiers, but we’re still getting people killed for this war. You know why? We neglect our own people’s needs. There are people dying in heat waves that we could save with proper resources. There are diabetics who need insulin. We don’t have a health care system, and if you suffer a major injury or illness, chances are you’re dying or going bankrupt.
Our war spending gets our own people killed, just maybe not with a missile. There are real life consequences the poor and middle class experience because our government chooses to make war profiteers richer every single year.
OK, 🇷🇺Vlad🇷🇺
the Russian army has been underperforming is corruption
Check under the hood of any army and you’re going to find all sorts of corruption, graft, and kickbacks. War Is A Racket.
After 2014 they took some notes that ex-soviet army is garbage. One needs a lot of changes to make it reliable and efficient. Lots of ukrainian fighters would tell you that as well (like хрюнчик from reddit), it’s just so happens that they took it a little more serious this time and also trained with NATO troops. But the whole beaurocracy, man, it needs to be flushed like a turd. I have a distant knowledge of how it is in Ukraine, but I’m pretty sure that up to 2014 or even further they had everything on paper, no central digital database of draftees, this eased the bribing and fixing papers. Zee’s office would have a fun time cleaning this shit.
Zelensky didn’t want the job either but he packed up his actor clothes and has so far been putting on a damn fine leadership show. I can imagine plenty of wealthier families are trying to dodge. who wouldn’t…10k seems low for bargaining ones potential life. not that any of this or that in ukraine is good right now. I just hope zelensky’s soul isn’t so blackened that he turns this into a teaching moment rather than punishment.
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Or a discreet state agency paying to undermine the defense of a nation. All signs point to Russia paying for these bribes since they’ve shown they can’t compete on the battlefield.
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Zelenskyy didn’t want the job, which is why he created and starred in a show that was basically a glorified political campaign.
Well, in my limited knowledge and general thoughts about it being treason, I agree with what he’s saying as it doesn’t come off as these recruiters are trying to be compassionate and save citizens to become soldiers.
Sounds like profiteering favoritism to keep rich and prominent men and women from serving.
This doesn’t strike me as 16 year old Billy is getting handed a bayonet and told to die for oil.
Bottom line, against or for the war, people getting rich by saving the rich is a pretty shitty way to do your profiteering.
Is $10,000 the minimum bribe, the typical/average bribe, or the most sensational bribe? Given the news outlet (BI), I’m guessing the latter.
Don’t know about you, but I think bribery should be an act of treasen whether at war or at peace.
Treason is a really powerful crime that carries heavy consequences. Bribery at peace should still carry consequences but in some cases (countries) treason alone carries a death penalty. Bribery during peace maybe shouldn’t carry such a steep penalty
Agreed, equating them is just penalty inflation.
A more productive focus would be:
- that those who have been shown to accept bribes are actually removed from their position prosecuted successfully.
- Transparent governance with independent watchdogs so that corruption is harder to hide.
Treason carries the death penalty in a lot of countries. But in most countries treason is poorly defined in law so it’s difficult to say whether somebody actually did commit treason from a legal point of view because it’s difficult to define what treason is.
Oftentimes it’s just easier to fire them on bribery charges and prosecute them using the standard peace time legal standards.
But it’s useful to call it treason on national television for PR reasons even if they never actually face treason charges.
*This is generally the case for most countries I have no idea how Ukraine defines treason.
But, Black Dynamite, I take bribes in the community!
Alt-righters calling Zelenskyy corrupt and so on all day long. Look how stressed his face looks. He’s aged like 30 years since the war started.
accepting bribes is bad actually
being sent to war against your will is bad actually
Being invaded by shitbirds is bad actually.
Not fighting them is bad actually.
Diluting that message is bad actually.
I’m sorry but invasions are a justifiable reason to impose a draft.
No, you’re wrong. Conscription is always wrong. If fighting is justified you won’t need to do it.
Cool so I can come in to your house and steal all your shit, beat up your children, and shoot your dog, and you aren’t allowed to fight back because if it was justified, you wouldn’t need to?
EDIT: I seem to have misinterpreted the comment, as you appear to be referring to conscription being unnecessary rather than the fighting. Taking the whole context of the comment supports that, but taking only the context of the final sentence makes it appear that you are saying “if fighting is justified you dont need to fight” rather than “if fighting is justified, conscription is unnecessary”
they mean ‘it’ as in conscription, thwyre saying if the fight was worth it you wouldnt need to conscript
Hm, I see how their comment can be interpreted that way, and it definitely makes more sense like that. They worded it extremely poorly tho, and thus is left pretty ambiguous. I think it would have been much more clear if they just spelled out “conscription” again instead of resorting to the pronoun.
That said, since I do agree with your interpretation I will edit my comment to reflect that
Correct, thanks. I guess I could’ve phrased it better but it was worth it for that dudes completely unhinged reply.
If only reality worked that way
Sure is.
It infuriates me that more people aren’t talking about how sexist it is that Ukraine only drafted its men. I can understand instituting a draft when your country is literally being invaded, but it should apply to all able-bodied citizens, not just men.
There is a point in the fact that men are biologically more suited to fight than women. Also no one is preventing a woman to join the military.
In the end it just sucks, no one should ever have to be drafted.
To what end? Just to get woman suffer as much as men in the name of equality? Winning the war is what matters. There are plenty of strategic reasons why you might not want to include woman in a draft. You still need civilians in regular jobs, you will need to population to grow after the war, and overall most military in the world are designed by men, for men, and are extremely missadapted for woman.
the draft is the real crime
What’s the alternative?
A volunteer force. It’s not up to a president to tell people what they’re willing to fight for.
You must be joking? How does a volunteer force work when dictators forcibly recruit whole armies and march into your country? Living in a democracy where you can comfortably post your thoughts on the web requires sacrifices. If we were to count on volunteers to fight wars there would be no free world to live in. And we would probably all be speaking German today.
I’m not joking. Drafts are immoral. Forcing people to kill each other is immoral.
You assume Germans all willfully signed up but also assume they only had one reason.
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Forcibly Drafting women as well
100%
But the chickenhawks here in the US have always been content watching other people march off to war.
Cheering for other people’s kids to march off and kill one another.
Booing when they come home, covered in blood and sweet and tears, because they didn’t achieve some kind of unequivocal victory.
Then claiming the (((Secret Traitors))) cost you the war by undermining moral with information about what was actually going on.
That’s the chickenhawk playbook.
So tell me when the US should have not been involved? WWI? Let the Prussian empire roll over Europe? WWII? Let Hitler 'clean up Europe from less than desirable people. Or maybe later with Korea and/or Vietnam? Let these countries fall under control of Russia/China. Because yes, it is evident that these countries have a better societal model, just look at the millions folks immigrating there each year (unlike the US) . Your comment is an insult to all the folks who sacrificed their life to provide a better life to their compatriots.
Ok, you go fight then internet tough guy
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I thought treason was just an excuse for the winners to hang the losers.
No, teason is aiding the enemy in times of war.
teason is teasing russians to get them to invade Ukraine so america wins, allegedly
Russia invaded Ukraine on its own long ago, when they occupied Crimea.
yea, I know, nobody got my joke about the mispelling of treason as teason sounding like teasing and using that to mock people who said this was all an american plan to trap russia devised by the CIA in putin’s head using 7-level deep inception.
oh, and
/S
Maybe in a civil war.
A real crime here is the draft. And before the tankies start circling this post, it applies to russia as well.
I usually dislike picking hairs of evil when the alternative solution was getting annexed back into a cultural meat grinder
Downvotes for a comment pointing out that forcing people to fight and die is fucked up? Okay, people…
A lot of keyboard warriors that like to belive they would gladly fight and die for the glory of their country if the time came, but are so far removed from the realities of war, that when they think of war they think of movies and video games, not watching your freinds get blown into chunks by an artillery shell or rocket while you’re making an MRE in your trench.
Calling it a crime is fucked up. Especially in a thread where actual crime (taking bribes) is discussed.
You can’t seriously be equating the moral shortcomings of taking a bribe to the complete immorality of imposing a draft on others and forcing them to march towards near certain death
I definitely can. It would be a completely different topic in russia where they draft people to sustain occupation. If Ukraine stopped defending now, you’d have Buchas and Mariupols all over Ukraine with many dead. So I don’t really see it as immoral as much as it sucks for everyone involved.
Compared to that, taking bribes from desperate people is next level fucked up and it’s effectively profiteering on genocide.
Dude, Ukraine was invaded. The last time the US has had to use a draft for circumstances like this was the Civil War, and everyone now thinks it was warranted then.
There were drafts for the Vietnam shitshow as well.
I think people generally agree that the drafts for the Vietnam war were not justified.
Drafts are never justified, you don’t own anyone else life
And they don’t owe you anything either.
So it would be only fair if Society does not provide any services whatsoever to draft dogers so: citizenship revoked, no ownership of anything they cannot hold and defend themselves, if they’re victims of a crime “though luck”, no firemen, no use of communal spaces including roads, no public Schools, no emergency medical care and even no indirect benefits like FDIC insurance on their bank deposits and many others.
If you have no duty to Society then Society has no duty to you, aka you’re a Pariah, worse than that even, as anybody can kill you anytime they feel like it since Society does not even has that duty to you - if you have no duty towards everybody else then they have no duty to enforce “rights” for you: it’s only fair since “rights” only exists because Society has agreed to them and enforces them so those who don’t agree with contributing to that agree to have no rights (and, as I said above, that also means the Right To Live and the Right To Ownership as well as any Citizenship Rights).
Strangelly, the crowd claiming they want Freedom only seems to want Freedom of their duties never Freedom from all those “Rights” than everybody else as a Society is making sure they have.
Let me know where you sign up to renounce to public services and stop paying taxes
If it were possible to live somewhere without government interference, I would do it in a heartbeat.
Yeah, well, you’re slowly getting to my point: if you want to live amongst other people you have to abide by common rules since your Freedom ends were other people’s Freedom starts.
(Which is how we ended up with the complex beast which is the Nation State, with all its imperfections)
Absolutelly, some people would love to trully be free in the genuine sense of the word and there really aren’t that many places on Earth were that is possible (they were born in the wrong Age, IMHO), but most people seem to want Freedom AND all the upsides of Human Civilization both at the same time, in other words, Rights without Duties.
The last time the US has had to use a draft for circumstances like this was the Civil War
Didn’t teach history in your school?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_the_United_States
You missed the “for circumstances like this” part. There were certainly other uses of the draft for other circumstances that are looked at poorly.
WWI and WWII didn’t have a direct US invasion, and we’re also looked at positively, but is out of the scope of the discussion.
You won’t find a single country on this planet that wouldn’t draft their citizens in a wartime situation while you’re running out of soldiers. Not a single one.
And it would still be fucked up in every single one of those countries.
You won’t also find a single country on this planet that isn’t rooted on violence and that isn’t ruled by corrupted politicians
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BATTLE-POPE, INITIATE COMBAT SEQUENCE.
FREEDOM FROM YOUR SINS IS NON NEGOTIABLE
that’s because the Vatican already drafts them to keep their heads in 1600, therefore they don’t know what modern warfare is
Don’t rest assured, for most of his history the vatican was a kingdom with his own army
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_executed_in_the_Papal_States
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Now, Facebook was evil. But, Facebook was different. The Meta Platforms, Inc., as it exists today, was only established in 2021.
/s, just in case you didn’t pick up on my heavy use of it
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I don’t know shit about The Vatican, the pope, their history, or their dumbass religion (obviously, and on purpose!). Thanks for taking the time to respond to give me some insight. However, your comment reads to the layman like , “They changed their name and are way better now,” and it’ll read that way to almost anybody without your extensive knowledge of useless things.
They changed their name
Costa Rica doesn’t have an army
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Running out of soldiers? I thought the Russians were a bunch of morons who can’t do anything and the Ukrainians were beating their asses in their sleep? Why would they need more soldiers?
Pretty sure only you thought that
Guess you weren’t paying attention to all the posts laughing about how the Russian military is so incompetent.
Regular draft is unacceptable. But this is not a regular draft.
a brilliant attempt to bothsides this invasion situation right here
No. The invading side is clearly worse. If it weren’t for the invading army, there would be no war.
Forcing people to risk their lives for a piece of dirt is still evil though.
They’re not defending just “dirt” they’re defending THEIR CHILDREN AND NEIGHBORS.
Children and neighbors can be moved. I don’t live in Ukraine, but when shit hit the fan, I was watching the news daily, while thinking about the most efficient way to pack everyone up in the car, and get the hell out. Luckily, the front line has stabilized relatively far from the western borders of UA. That’s enough of a buffer between me and russia for now.
If the situation ever changes, I’m not going to wait for the bombs to fall. I’m going to try to outrun them. It would suck to loose my home, but life is worth more to me than a bunch of bricks.
Children and neighbors can be moved.
wow. just wow.
I don’t live in Ukraine,
Whelp.
It would suck to loose my home, but life is worth more to me than a bunch of bricks.
The point goes sailing so far over your head I wonder about your last reply.
The point goes sailing so far over your head
As long as it’s not the bombs…
You do realize the irony of “dirt doesn’t matter, it’s just dirt” when you’re not moving right now because…people are defending their own dirt???
I think the calculus is different here, because it isn’t just dirt. We’ve seen what happens to cities and civilians when Russia invades an area.
Their needs to be a term when people use the “both sides” argument in bad faith to try and deflect legitimate criticism. I guess it kind of falls under whattaboutism ironically enough "nevermind the bad things Ukraine is doing, whattabout the bad things Russia is doing?
Draft is slavery
War is death.
Apple is truck.
See? I can also spew nonsense.
Words do mean things. Conscription is involuntary labor. Slavery is… involuntary labor. A=A.
In a situation where losing means you lose everything… It’s a small price to pay.
Sorry somepeople don`t want to do for a country. If you want to do die. go for It. I wouldnt
losing means you lose everything
Conscripting a guy to go to war on your behalf, watching them die in your defense, and then breathing a sigh of relief because at least you didn’t lose anything.
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Another user that is less than 24 hours old spewing Russian propaganda bullet-points? Shocking!
said the 2 month old tourist
How old do you think Kbin.social is?
The guy that was offered by the US to be extracted at the start of the war, but instead chose remain in the war with his people, that guy? He’s looking for bribes??
The amount of stupid you have to be, to post something this brainless boggles the mind.
You actually fell for that PR stunt? The Afghanistan government installed by the US was also very brave up until the US withdrew and they ran away shitting their pants. Zelenskyy knows he’s in absolutely no danger at all while under the full protection of the US and the rest of the west.
found the tankie
Add another obvious troll to the ban pile
You thinking something up doesn’t make it true (or smart).
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You really live in your own reality huh?
Fuck you and fuck invading Russia.
calm down Vlad
