Remember everyone…Google never cared about you or your phone or your privacy. They are a marketing company and make money selling your data. Your data is all they care about. They don’t offer a wide range of products, like search and Gmail and all of their office products for free, just for the fun of it.
The openness of Android is the thing that kept me on the platform. Now that the openness is being removed, iOS is now more appealing.
Sadly, I think most of the customers that use Android never sideload a single app at all. I don’t expect this to create a mass exodus, but a smaller one with power users.
This is the risk of “trusted computing” architectures. Who is governing the “trusted” part of that.
These cryptographic signatures are not as much of a death knell for Android as some would have you believe. The trick is to get a common code signing cert into your device, that is then used to sign any third party APK you want to run. You can avoid the Google tax this way. I assume that’s how most sideloading sites and apps are going to handle this.
The question is, how do you add that certificate? Is it easy and straight forward (with plenty of scary warnings), as a user? Or is it going to be a developer options deal? Or will I need root to add the cert?
I’m not sure what that answer is right now.
I just want to finish this post with a few words about trusted computing models. Plainly: Apple has been doing this for years … That’s why you download basically everything from an app store with Apple. Whether on your Mac OS device, your iPhone, iPad or whatever iDevice… Whether the devs need to sign it, or the app gets signed when it lands on the store, there’s a signature to ensure that the app hasn’t been tampered with and that Apple has given the app it’s security blessings, that it is safe to run. Microsoft and Google have both been climbing towards the same forever. Apple embedded their root of trust in their own proprietary TPM which has been included with every Mac, and iDevice for a long ass time. Google also has a TPM, the Titan security module, I believe that was introduced around pixel 3? Or 4?.. Microsoft made huge waves requiring it for Windows 11, and we all know what that discussion looks like. Apple requires a TPM (which they supply, so nobody noticed), Google has been adding a TPM and TPM functionality to their phones for years, and now Windows is the same. None of this is a bad thing. Trusted computing can eliminate much of the need for antivirus software, among other things. I digress. We’ve been going this way for a long time. Google is just more or less, doing what Apple has already done, and what Microsoft will very likely do very soon, making it a requirement. Battlefield 6 I think, was one of the first to require trusted computing on Windows and it will, for damned sure, not be the last that does. The only real hurdle here is managing what is trusted. So far, each vendor has kept the keys to their own kingdoms, but this is contrary to computing concepts. Like the Internet, it should be able to be done without needing trust from a specific provider. That’s how SSL works, that’s how the Internet works, that’s how trusted computing should work. The only thing that should be secret is the private signing keys. What Google, Apple, and Microsoft should be doing, is issuing intermediary keys that can sign code signing certs. So trusted institutions that create apps, like… Idk, valve as an example, can create a signature key for steam and sign Steam with it, so the trust goes from MS root to intermediary key for valve, to steam code signing key, and suddenly you have an app that’s trusted. Valve can then use their key to sign software on their store that may not have a coffee signing key of it’s own. This is just one example based on Windows. And above all of this, the user should be able to import a trusted code signing cert, or an intermediary cert signing cert, to their service as trusted.
Anyways, thanks for coming to my Ted talk.
This is about Revanced, isn’t it? They failed to kill it via the YouTube backend so now it’s down to lock down the os and browsers as much as possible to keep feeding people the juicy ads.
This is bigger than “just” Revanced though. It is about using any open source software that could replace a Google app and losen Google’s grip on your data.
It’s time to start self hosting your own services people!
Yeah, but that doesn’t help if you can’t make apps that support the hosted services. Google is trying to have complete ownership of what runs on your phone.
Gotta buy a different phone then
This is about preparing for DMA and the likes in other countries.
I don’t see how the DMA would cause this other than Google preemptively setting themselves up for malicious compliance. The whole point of the DMA seems to be to give users choice not take it away.
DMA is only partly for choice.Sorry, different act, but same group (EU). But the rest pretty much stands the same, the EU won’t see it as malicious compliance, but as a great design choice.This is also huge part of it about being able to “prevent illegal” content.
“easier reporting of illegal content” “less exposure to illegal content” “level-playing field against providers of illegal content”
This will help give paper trails for everything, and that allows for easy reporting which is the bigger part of the DMA.
I think you’re on point with the malicious compliance. Google doesn’t want to give up power and control. Requiring all installations to run through them seems to be their workaround.
I find it very strange how many people in the comments here think the solution is to buy an iPhone. Maybe you are all just rich and can afford to spend $1000+ based on vibes, but considering the Android market still has a massive value advantage I’m not really sure what the point of switching is. This all feels very similar to how some Westerners decided Chinese tech and even the Chinese government were suddenly problem-free just because Americans elected Trump for a second time.
Can you even (easily) install custom apps on iOS? The last thing I remember is it being a huge pain in the butt…
If you’re in the EU there is now at least one alternative app store. iOS hasn’t opened up anywhere else in the world AFAIK, so it’s still a pain for everyone else. You used to be able to use the AltStore without jailbreaking iOS (maybe you still can), but the process was annoying and didn’t feel particularly secure as you had to provide your Apple account details.
The upgrade cycle on iphones is longer than that on android. $1200 flagship samsung phone turns to shit after 2 years. $1100 iphone keeps chugging for 4-5. The android rot is real. Apple is far from perfect but the phones last way longer on average and end up having a lower cost overtime. That is if youre not buying bottom of the barrel budget phones to compare against.
All of my old phones work fine as the last time they were updated. My 10 year old Sony xperia z3c would be fine except for security updates and it’s only 3g, and the storage on it is quite measly. I still use it everyday for playing music, though.
Most of the speed issues are google bloat. Play services are absolute hogs, and anything that needs them will not work on this phone, but everything that doesn’t is perfectly fine. So I’m basically stuck with f-droid apps. Which is fine, because it’s a glorified iPod at this point
…Used or refurbished iPhones are relatively cheap and better for the planet.
Relative to what? Better for the planet than what? I’m not really sure what your point is here, you seem to be implying that a secondhand market for Android phones doesn’t exist (note: it does, and Android phones are still much better value secondhand because they lose value so quickly relative to iPhones).
I just hope that the Graphene devs continue to support the last supported versions of Android that allow installing apks.
I couldn’t be happier with my P7 that has been running Graphene since day one. Zero Google. Zero problems
So yeah we’ll do a decentralized Linux phone of sorts, if Google is going full 3rd Reich with Android we’ll move to a Linux based OS phone.
Simple as that.
Apple now allows sideloading of apps and Google is trying to get rid of sideloading.
What… the Fuck?
To be fair, they are now both on the same level. Both now allow sideloading from “trusted” sources, aka developers verified by Apple/Google.
Apple now allows sideloading of apps
Apple allows as much sideloading as google wants to next near.
Yes, you can install from .iPa files, but you still need to pay 100€ a year to be able to sign the IPA files, otherwise you cant run them. as much as with googles new policy you now need to pay 25€ + your full name to get a signature, to sign the Apks with
This ⬆️ Apple has set the lowest bar, and google is simply following the trend of “how to keep your App Store the monopoly while conforming to the dma“
Now we have to get EU on the case 😀
The EU is no longer an ally in such matters but a bad actor.
Gonna have to elaborate on this because the European union has both good and bad people pulling strings.
If this is about chatcontrol. Scary as it is that the idea keeps coming back it has also always gotten shot down.
True. But it needs to be shot down every time it comes up. For them to succeed, they only need to succeed once.
them bringing it up again and again is a very significant problem. Imagine you’re spending time with a girl and asking her to have sex with you. She says “no”, and you simply keep asking her daily until she says “yes” once, probably because she’s just not paying attention to your actual question on that day. Such a behavior would be recognized by most people as being improper, immoral and not in the spirit of “consent”.
Now, the same is happening on the EU. They keep asking the same question after they already got an explicit answer, and such a behavior should be illegal by itself. No means No.
Why? Because of the chat control stuff?
Forgive my ignorance since I’ve been out if the loop, how have EU switched from being good to bad?
As more countries within the EU shift to right wing governments, the EU as a political body itself will also shift more to the right.
Ah, yeah I don’t like that trend that’s been going on. Or like chatcontrol that somehow seems to find it’s way back despite being shot down again and again.
Apple now allows sideloading of apps and Google is trying to get rid of sideloading.
afaik only in the EU?
Don’t call it sideloading. Did you watch the video?
Yea but Apple got sued into allowing that
This is an android 16 feature, scheduled for sept 2026 “prerelease” and 2027 rollout. I expect/hope some phones will have a setting to disable “the security”. If not, there is great opportunty for high end hardware linux first phones, with good android emulation software.
Their arguments are kind of lame. To install APKs from outside the store is already an involved process that generally makes it harder for the uninformed to sideload. Make sideloading a bit harder, but possible. My xiaomi makes me wait and read warnings before installing APKs, for example.
Side loading will still be possible but the apps themselves will need to be signed by the developer through Google, so Google ultimately still controls what can be installed. Maybe someone will crack it.
[Installing software] will still be possible but the apps themselves will need to be signed by the developer through Google, so Google ultimately still controls what can be installed. Maybe someone will crack it.
Fixed that for you :-)
It’s a great way to workaround them being forced to open the ecosystem a little and allowing alternative stores and that stuff. It only took more than a decade, they obviously not happy about it, so gotta screw people in another way.
That’s apple. Android has traditionally allowed sideloading. They aren’t be forced to open up anything, they’re just adding restrictions.
“Uugfhh, but the users don’t read the warnings!! They just click yes until it works!!”
And that’s my problem because??? For fucks sake
If they only cared about thwarting malware they could have just relied on code signing via public certificate authorities, like with binaries on Windows.
Code signing offers slight protection from malware but not as you might think. If a company signs an installer, or executable then it tells you it came from them but not what it does. It could still be malicious, or it could be inadvertently bundled with malware in DLLs or scripts and you wouldn’t know. You’re just hoping the company has done its due diligence and you trust them to run.
Microsoft does have an antivirus system on top and fingerprints downloads too and applies some kind of trust score that is better if an exe is signed. There is probably no single mitigation that stops malware infection but apply lots of smaller mitigations in in depth and most people will be safe.
The irony is Microsoft still lets people run files ending with .scr way too easily. Much of the malware on torrent websites is a file ending with .scr knowing the OS will hide the extension, e.g. movie.mp4.scr appears as movie.mp4 in File Explorer and people click through and get infected.
The point is so that most people can’t or won’t figure it out or get discouraged. So that in time, google’s “unwanted” software will be starved of attention and funds to continue being developped and these “weeds” in their garden slowly wither and die
If Google is going to lock down my device to the point where I can’t install apps without their permission, I might as well dump Android and go straight to Apple. I sacrificed my phone being good for the openness of the platform, but if Google loses that openness, why shouldn’t I go with Apple?
Because the cheapest new iPhone is $600 and you can get a cheap new android phone for around $100-$200 and get 6 years of security updates (Galaxy A16 for example)
If a smartphone is no longer a computer where you can install whatever you want, why bother investing so much money on a very locked-down phone? You can use the hundred of dollars you saved to spend on a small portable PC or something to run any software you want.
Yeah but my banks don’t support my small portable PC, nor does my mobile phone provider. If I wanted a small portable PC I’d get a small portable PC. What I want is a smartphone.
$600 is pocket change for a phone these days. And for that $600 you’re getting a flagship phone. You couldn’t pay me enough money to put up with a non-flagship. Been there, done that. They’re too slow and frustrating, and apps keep closing due to lack of RAM. Never again. I much rather spend $600-800 on a high-end device that’s a couple of generations old.
A $200 phone in 2015 is not the same as a $200 phone in 2025. I know from experience.
Those phones in 2015 were awful, but in 2025, they feel more like mid-range phones.
Edit: And $600 is pocket change? Sound like someone lived a privilaged life.
This 100%
I have used tracfone since 2012 and only bought phones from their store, sub $150. The budget phones today are so much better than the last 10 years.
I just can’t wrap my head around sinking that much into a phone when you replace it every year and it cost as much as a decent budget computer, but worse.
People who upgrade every year sell their old one at >50% the price.
So they don’t fork over €600, they only do €250 or so.
I just can’t wrap my head around sinking that much into a phone when you replace it every year
Usually the people who replace their flagship phone every 1 - 2 years aren’t paying full price for it, or at least not upfront. They are receiving trade-in and pre-order discounts, or spreading the cost out over a 12 - 24 month period through a plan with their telco.
I make $19/hr and live paycheck to paycheck. I’m just being realistic about the current cell phone market.
Surely cost relative to income is more relevant than cost relative to the rest of the market? Something doesn’t magically become cheap just because everything else is ridiculously expensive.
Openness isn’t just a nice to have. It is essential.
The difference between general purpose computing and gatekept walled garden computing is night and day.
Identifying the devs is not in the “need to know” for Google. Google sells or helps to sell a general purpose open device where it is on us to exploit that device however we will.
Now Google wants to switch to a walled garden, moderated development model.
If Google promises it won’t use those dev IDs to moderate development, their promise is only worth the wind it moves and the sound it makes.
You might say their words are like farts in the wind
We don’t even need to assume: https://torrentfreak.com/apple-revokes-eu-distribution-rights-for-torrent-client-developer-left-in-the-dark/
now while at first view, your sentiment is understandable, i actually kinda differ.
when you buy any product at any store, i believe that there has to be a legal entity behind the store that sells you this product, and the legal entity needs to be identifiable. i.e. if you run a shop and give packages to people, you need to show ID to open up that shop. i believe it is the same for charity organizations which give away packages for free.
now, why would it be different for apps? apps are software packages, and if they’re given away, there should be a legal entity behind it that is identifiable. this isn’t to surveil or suppress people, it’s just how business has always been done, and for good reason so. businesses need legal representatives to operate, even if it’s a charity, because otherwise there’s nobody to “talk to” when there’s issues, and also imposters would have an easy game.
that doesn’t mean that you can’t donate packages away on the streets. just put it in front of your front door and wait until somebody passes by and takes it, or give it directly into the hands of your friends, you don’t need to open a business for that. just, if you do it regularly, interacting with people you don’t personally know, there is a legal entity that represents that recurring activity, like a business or charity.
If i understand it correctly, even with the new changes, what can be done is that open software distribution sites like F-Droid can sign the packages instead of the original developers and therefore circumvent the identification of the original developers, and also you can still install unsigned third-party apps if you enter a command on the command line to disable ID certificate checking. it’s just an extra step, not a block-all.
This change requires you to attach your real name when publishing software. That’s all. You can still publish to and install packages from anywhere. This doesn’t come close to Apple’s complete control.
Google already scans packages you’re installing for malware and alerts you and allows you to install them anyway. This gives that scanner one more tool to identify bad actors.
The only answer is money at that point. I don’t know how much phones are these days, but aren’t iPhones like $1400, but Android is like $900?
I may be wrong though. Last time I bought a phone was 2018, and it was $600. Still using it.
You can get Android phones with reasonable specs around $200. No need for the so called “flagships”.
Oh, I was comparing flagships, because iphone doesn’t have a non-flagship to compare to.
You probably didn’t do it on purpose, but you made a comparison on Apple’s terms, thus implicitly priveleging Apple.
Last thing Apple needs is us priveleging it.
I’m just saying Apple doesn’t make anything close to a cheap stripped down $200 model.
I made the comparison based on feature set. For that you need an android flagship phone. Android DOES make cheap phones…but therexs no 1:1 comparison for Apple.
I’m just saying Apple doesn’t make anything close to a cheap stripped down $200 model.
Yes, I think that’s exactly the point people are trying to make to you.
i have a phone for less than $200 and it works fine.
I already tend to buy the expensive flagship models of phones. I buy unlocked and it lasts me ~5+ years, so I get the best phone I can get at the time and make it last, so money isn’t as much of an issue if I were to move to an iPhone.
Apple hardware has always been a generation ahead. Even when android/qualcom catches up, next generation is out already. The reason to avoid apple was it being a closed system money grab.
Apple hardware ahead of Android? I’ll have what you’re having!
Please show me a single benchmark with a flagship android beating a flagship iPhone.
a18pro beats M3 max in single core. Compared to 7840hs, it has 40% high single score geekbench 6, though 50% less multicore. Even beats ai395max at single score. Android competition catches up to even in gaming/gpu, but single core/responsiveness is still light years ahead. a19 next month, likely. M3 ultra has competitive aspects to xeon and epyc. Apple definitely has a lead on arm implementations.
Credit where credit is due, iOS runs lighter than Android and thus needs less powerful hardware, simply: JVM vs LLVM ObjC
I know it’s not really ready for it yet, but I guess I’m gonna be looking into a Linux phone before I thought I would.
My main problem with linux phones is that many apps only exist only for android or ios.
Sure some apps are basically a website that you can acess by web browser but many apps cant be replaced able (banking, tickets, public transport, games)
My main problem with the current crop of Linux phones is, or at least it’s my impression - is that they still struggle with the basic phone part. As in network connectivity (at least in the US), making and receiving calls, SMS & MMS, and VoLTE support. If there’s a Linux phone where that stuff is solid and works, I’d buy one. I don’t really care about the whole app ecosystem - I barely have any apps on my Android phone now.
Most Android apps can be run under a mini-VM in the Linux systems I’ve tried - but some apps won’t function well that way (banking, NFC tickets, etc)
I think I’d be willing to let go of the handful of things that are exclusive, given that I could probably do more with a proper Linux system. It’s the basic phone functionality (as others have mentioned) that keeps me from switching.
Wait, Linux phones are a thing? How do they get the market share to compete with the big tech?
That’t the neat part, they don’t. They’re still very niche
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Is Linux viable as a mobile os yet?
I readily await the visibility and interest this will give mobile linux development.
Nearly 100% of the development for handheld Linux is Steam OS / Steam Deck. If Valve moves to ARM at some point then you might see useful improvements that benefit the mobile use case.
the collaborative world works off of demand. Pocket laptops and linux phones have been a nice distraction for long enough. They may soon become more of a saving grace.
I’m not saying you’ll be able to run Spyware Simulator 2000 on PostmarketOS. I’m more saying that any secondary device you use for foss software will be more focused upon as an actual decent alternative for getting work done without being spied on by capitalist nazis.
These devices can run web browsers. That’s 80% of your needs already taken care of and we haven’t even left Firefox.
CARRY TWO PHONES??!!
What will the neighbors think!?
It seems like fewer people care about being spied on, “I have nothing to hide”, and many people don’t even change the settings to prevent sharing contacts, photos, and location with privacy hostile apps like Facebook.
Can a steam deck be turned into a phone?
It won’t do phone calls or SMS but otherwise sure why not. Just call/msg with matrix or discord
Also JMP.chat
probably doesn’t have the necessary antennae
Attach some dangling USB modem with a data SIM, or just keep a mobile router with a data SIM in your backpack, for 3G/4G/5G data connectivity over WiFi. Then, use some VoIP provider if you actually need a phone number as well.
My shitty country cant use those anyway.
What is blocking it? I haven’t done much research yet but was hoping to find a new OS if this goes through. Wouldn’t it be the same as putting a sim card into a tablet/laptop? Or is there something specific to your country that stands out?
Probably they need to pay for an IMEI fee their government wants. I know because it’s the same here. I got PinePhone for $200 and had to pay for $250 IMEI fee. What did I do? Changed the IMEI to my old dead phone’s.
Nice, that makes sense. Doesn’t is store more data than just an IMEI number though, like make/model, did you have to spoof that as well or was that easily ignored
Normally, yes. As for my government concerns, I’m using Nexus 5X. They probably would notice if they investigate but as long as there are no more than 1 active phones with the same IMEI, they most likely won’t notice.
Look up Australia’s whitelisting system.
If you phone isn’t manually approved, it won’t be able to connect to a cell tower, not even for emergency calls.
What the hell
not even for emergency calls.
That’s wild.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIJavqEzEIw (sources in video description)
If your phone isn’t manually approved, its assumed your phone doesn’t support 4g/5g, therefore, blocked.
4G/5G phones have already been blocked
Fairphone isn’t certified in Australia, Pinephone also isn’t, nor Librem 5.
Custom ROMs on an approved phone might work for now, but they could potentially start verifying OS in the future if the autocratization trend continues. Also, manufacturers could starts start locking the bootloader.
The best realistic way forward is have two devices, one is the “normie” phone, the other is your own pocket PC running a Libre OS.
