It’s a common mistake among conservatives that they believe everyone is as self-centered and greedy as they are
I’ve not become more conservative as I age because I’d kill myself before becoming that awful to people around me
Not knocking your worthy efforts, but the vast majority of people don’t turn conservative because of ideological reasons, they do it because they want to keep what they acquired over their lives.
The people don’t become conservative any more because everyone younger than 40 pretty has pretty much gotten the economic middle finger across the board, so people turn radical instead. If I have nothing to lose I don’t feel protective of the status quo.
But the greedy fucks in charge around the world are so removed from the reality of life they cannot see past their bank account, and would rather concede to fascism to keep things going for a bit longer, than making the needed changes. For the lost generations and the planet itself.
Well it’s worth noting that teenage boys have started leaning a bit more to the right, likely in large part because of Andrew Tate and others in the manosphere, plus right-wing think-tanks like PragerU targeting schools and kids.
Though it’s not like the gap between conservative and liberal boys is that big, plus it’s not uncommon to hear from men on the left say that they had a phase of watching Ben Shapiro debate compilations only to grow out of it, so it’s not like this is the end of the world.
Still, it’s also true that Millennials and Gen X are getting fucked by boomers when it comes to money: Millennials only hold 3% of total US wealth, and that’s a shockingly small sliver of what baby boomers had at their age
I guess we can only hope that the latter is a stronger motivating factor than reactionary propaganda and efforts to curtail education that are coming from the right.
40-54 year olds were 7-21 years old in 1990. That group had >30% of wealth? I have some doubts about these charts.
That’s because you’re reading the chart wrong. It’s showing the change in wealth for those age brackets across time.
People that were 40 in 1990 had a bigger share of the wealth than people who are 40 in 2020.
Ah, I see. Thank you.
What exactly are older people afraid of losing? It’s not like even the farthest left politicians are in favor of doing anything more radical than raising taxes on people who are wealthier than the vast majority of boomers.
I don’t think they are afraid of losing anything specific. It’s ingrained at this point.
“If you made straight A’s and someone else made straight F’s, how would you feel if you both ended up with C’s? That’s fair right? No? Welcome to the Republican Party. Isn’t everyone who doesn’t agree with this an idiot? I’m glad we aren’t idiots.”
I grew up homeschooled and the Christian curriculum my parents used had similar feeling brainwashing tactics. “Scientists searched their whole lives to disprove the Bible, then ended up Christians instead!” Making you feel smart for not wasting your life like the other guy, you are already in the “good” group.
Being protective of your good fortune at the expense of others is itself part of an ideology, so I don’t see why you felt the need to contradict and condescend. A person who’s not a piece of shit would have no business being a conservative, no matter how privileged they are.
Now go argue with someone else because I’m getting big reddit energy from you, and it’s making me anxious.
Im not even sure how to respond to this. Okay? I suppose
Next time, either be considerate and don’t lead with a debatelord’s tone, or don’t comment at all if you can’t resist being an argumentative prick
How about I express myself as I see fit, and you compose yourself for the next time someone writes in a way that makes you feel “anxious” yet at the same time unable to control the urge to lecture them.
Who are you to tell me how I should express myself?
When you treat people like shit and throw pointed words at them, I’m going to call you out for it. I don’t owe you an apology.
But fair enough, I’ll block you. I had my fill of you neckbeards during my miserable tenure on reddit, and I never want to speak to you again.
Whom did I treat like shit in your opinion? I have not addressed anyone except nameless politicians.
Maybe spend less time arguing with people you say you don’t want to argue with and more on improving your reading comprehension
I think you ought to read beyond the first paragraph they wrote
And I think you ought to keep your thoughts to yourself, if you have nothing worth contributing besides haughty arrogance and presumption.
Besides, I did read their whole comment. That’s what I responded to.
Wtf dude chill
Just saying, the second and third paragraph seem to agree with you
That’s EXACTLY MY POINT. If someone agrees with you, then why lead with something as pretentious and haughty as “Not to knock your worthy efforst, but…”
Why talk down to someone like that and adopt the tone of a pretentious debatelord when you ultimately agree with the other person?
I encountered people like that all over reddit, so I recognize them – the type of people who think any conversation is a debate that you must “win.” It’s precisely because he does agree with me that I’m so miffed.
They weren’t being pretentious or haughty. They amended one of your statements because it was a little inaccurate, then agreed that your wider point is correct. Because, yes, “wanting to hold on to what you have earned” is indeed an ideologically driven position
To what extent do you think education has played a role in allowing kids to critically analyse these types of people. Because in my history classes, we learned about ways people influenced others in nefarious ways and I’m wondering if kids see the same common pattern and know when to avoid.
Just a thought 🤷
Oh, I definitely think it’s played an important role. There’s a reason the right wing regularly attacks education. Seems to be a global thing, too – not just the US.
Also just a thought, though!
Good question, anyone that has an education will tell you it’s changed their life and I believe that too. Even though sometimes it’s boring, the advantage is just too good for future children. Just suspicious that right wing wants to reverse progress.
It’s become unfortunately popular in some circles to view education as strictly a state’s propaganda tool, but in spite of its flaws, I’ve been pretty impressed by how effective it can be in the hands of skilled and passionate groups of individual educators.
That’s not to say there aren’t bad teachers (and don’t even get me started on administrators and legislators), but I do attribute a lot to what it has accomplished, for example, in my remote state, and that’s in spite of being regularly attacked by christofascists. When I think about it, I’m not sure I’d have much of a healthy perspective on things if not for some influential teachers. I’m a huge fan of public education, and I think we need to speak up for it whenever we can. It’s tragic what’s happened to it these past few years in my state and others.
I’m conservative, I’m not American though.
I wish there was a place we could talk about the issues we disagree on without assuming the other is PURE EVIL OMG HITLER HITLER NAZI!
Or DIRTY PEDO COMMIE HATES WESTERN CIVILIZATION AND WANTS US TO ALL BE GULAGED LITERALLY STALIN STALIN STALIN!
“I just wish there was a place I could talk about maintaining the structures that oppress billions but keep me feeling comfortable and superior without those who are negatively impacted telling me I’m a piece of shit”
Damn, man
It must be miserable being you
Why not actually respond to what they said? Conservatism is inherently about conserving power in the elite. It seems a bit immature to respond to an (admittedly snide and sarcastic) challenge to your beliefs with a personal insult. All they did was accurately break down what your comment represents.
I’m having a dozen conversations and 80% of the time when I click on the response in my inbox to go back to the context it takes me to another post all together.
I don’t even know what our conversation has been up to this point.
What did they say? And then how did I respond? I wish you could see my inbox with all of the personal attacks I’ve received not only today, but over the last two months over different accounts lol
So if someone is being an idiot to me, I don’t have a problem being an idiot back. If you’re respectful, I’ll have a respectful conversation with you.
That entire comment was just a dodge. Do your due diligence and click “show context” (it is the bare minimum effort), and stop avoiding the subject. Or just don’t respond if you don’t want to discuss.
If you want to know what they were talking about - I already summed it up in the comment you’re responding to. Precisely so you couldn’t excuse dodging the point a second time. And yet, here you are, doing exactly that.
Do you deny that conservatism is about conserving the power in the established elite? And if so - how?
https://lemmy.one/comment/2873366
Lol this is the kind of thing that shows up in my inbox over and over and over again
I just told you, I click on the reply and it takes me to some random part of the thread. When replies start getting nested and there’s a lot of comments I can’t find the posts. And I don’t really care that much to spend the time searching, when my inbox keeps filling up with messages like the one I linked.
Conservation of tradition is what conservatives usually aim to do. Nothing about established elite, but values, institutions, traditions, etc. that’s the context of ‘conserve’ in the name.
Of course there’s a lot more to it than that.
Its because for us in America there is nothing to argue for on conservatism that is appealing. Our democrats are center-right. What do we have to discuss between extremists and centrists of the same side? What companies should be bailed out first? Which lobbyist donate the fattest cheques? Its abysmal. So no, you won’t find any citizens who want to discuss with conservatives same as you won’t find many willing to discuss with the Taliban.
Honestly, it sounds like you’re the extreme one if you think the majority of everyone else is either centrist or extremist themselves.
How can you reconcile that?
If I understand what you’ve wrote you said;
You’re an extremist if you think the majority of other people are extremists.
Could you please elaborate on that?
If you want to do this, we can.
But can we start with an agreed on definition of the term ‘extremist’?
My point is that, if you think 300 million other people in your country are extremists, and there are any 350-ish million people in your country - mayyyyybe the 300 aren’t the extremists and maybe you are.
If that’s how you see the world
That doesn’t make sense. Looking at the US, there appears to be around 18% on the extreme right, 60 percent on the moderate right, 20% on the moderate left to center, and 2% on the extreme left.
But the media reporting on them appear to be weighted extreme right and left.
Populist politics and media have resulted in many countries around the world becoming less tolerant of opposing views, which has driven many discussions (and more people) to ideological extremes.
But you can have 50% extreme left and 50% extreme right in a country easily. Just means nobody’s willing to compromise on anything.
I’d like to see what the definition of ‘extreme left’ and ‘extreme right’ is to pair with those numbers. Is it something the ADL or NAACP came up with?
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What you’re looking for is certainly not on this platform
Unfortunately, I don’t think it exists anywhere
why aren’t you on truth social?
I want debate, not a right wing echochamber or roulette of insults
There’s nothing to debate with conservatives. If you were a reasonable person looking for good faith discussion you wouldn’t be a conservative. So no one will engage with you because its a waste of time at best.
You have the entirety of human history at your fingertips and you’re too lazy to seek out information. No one wants to babysit you through Wikipedia.
It is also my experience dealing with conservatives that any time you people get DESTROYED you people get really angry, like threateningly angry.
I’ll give you a concrete example: the other poster whinging about immigration. Do you know the history of immigration laws? Do you know the causes of immigration? What are the effects of immigration? What are the impacts to communities? Do you understand current and historical colonialism? Or did newscorp tell you immigrants are scary (especially the brown ones)?
“You are a waste of time at best” “You’re too lazy to seek out information”
Read the comment you replied to. It’s a single sentence. I cannot state it any simpler.
No I do not know the entire history of immigration legislation, even pertaining to the US. Yes I know causes of immigration, but likely not all of them. Yes I know what I don’t know, which is why I don’t debate about immigration. I know it is entirely too difficult for people seeking to immigrate OR seek asylum in the US to become citizens, and I’d go as far to say it’s impossible for most. Yes we need to fix our southern border, because we are actively treating immigrants like trash and not humans seeking a better life. Open borders, for the most part, are good borders. And no I did not read the other poster’s comments.
Not get the fuck off your high horse.
Why would I be?
because you are looking for a platform that will be more open to conservative users. I keep hearing conservatives complain they have nowhere to go, but there is a platform specifically for them, and I don’t know why they won’t use it
Why do we need to be in different places online according to our political leaning?
Let me know when you find it, I’m looking too
is there a reason you aren’t on truth social?
Oh poor you. Go fuck yourself with a rusty blade, asshole.
You have a reasonable take. I’m sorry you’re going to get assaulted with messages. Lemmy’s a bit of a hive mind so just know you’re not unreasonable for wanting a space where discussion can be had without bad faith. Also a conservative by the way. I’m really much more moderate, but no one here would classify me as that since the scope is shifted
I see boomers posting “Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times.” on FB all the time, and they genuinely, unironically think they were here >strong men create good times< instead of where they really were, here >good times create weak men<, and so now we are absolutely here >weak men create hard times< thanks to them.
They’re just so close to seeing the point.
I thought it was weak men make me hard
13 year olds when they discover sex ed
For me it’s women with low standards.
The actual baby boomers were the weak men created by the good times.
The strong men created by hard times were their parents who fought in wwi and wwii
My generation (millennial/gen x) is also weak.
My children’s generation, unfortunately, might be the ones who grow to be strong, if we don’t turn around this disaster
I know you’re probably just joking on theme, but I still feel it’s important to say that this “Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times” shit is quite literally conservative mythology. It’s a line of reasoning made to justify the “necessity” of strongmen leaders (just one example) and, more often than not, starts a rabbit hole straight to fascism.
All that said though, yeah, I agree, fuck those guys thinking they’re so fuckin bad, when really they’re just losers holding us back
Historically, people have become more conservative, not as they age, but as they become more financially secure, own their own home, and want to keep more of the fruits of their labour.
That’s increasingly not happening, and we’re not happy about it.
and want to keep more of the fruits of their labour
Most conservatives want to keep the fruits of other peoples labor.
“Fruits of their labor”
Well, fruits of exploitation of the global south that made your labor worth so much more than theirs.
People become more conservative as they gain wealth, not age.
I gained wealth and only realized how bullshit and unfair it all is 🤷♀️
Yeah, I should clarify that you have to gain wealth and also be an asshole.
I tripled my income this year, I’m more of a socialist than ever.
I want my taxes to go to something useful, instead of some dipshit’s 34th bailout.
Also negatively correlates with emotional intelligence
“You need to have a sense of ownership and responsibility for your community.”
“So you’re actually going to let me invest in the community and own things?”
“What? No! Jesus, no. I want you to feel responsible for my stuff and work to preserve a status quo that will never serve you.”
100 years ago a big part of the young generation was socialist too. Look how much changed.
This whole obsession with policing people’s nationality came about because states were trying to clamp down on the massive amounts of working-class agitation that erupted across the world straight after WW1 - but all that history has essentially been scrubbed out from the “official” narratives.
In the UK we have something called the “Shy Tory Factor”, where opinion polls almost always favour the left, because people will tell people (including pollsters) that they voted for one party, but then voted in a way they view they will be judged against.
IIRC it’s also noted in US politics, and IMO it’s highly likely that in certain areas you’ll find many people that will say all the right things in public, but secretly prefer Trump over Biden, regardless of what either party stands for.
God this is a depressing thought. We have enough people here who ARE already publicly vocal for the likes of our far right. To think that there are posers is kinda as terrifying as it is believable.
Doesn’t matter if they “become socialist” if they still vote for the same 2 party system. Democrats will never allow America to become actually left-wing
The 2 party system doesn’t change until voting changes. First-past-the-post voting actively encourages 2 dominant parties. Ranked choice voting isn’t perfect, but it’s definitely better than FTTP and it has the most momentum in the US right now.
Yeah RCV sounds like the way forward. I was hoping some states would adopt PR but unfortunately that is blocked by the Uniform Congressional Districts Act.
Voting is not capable of fixing our system.
If you adopted PR and suddenly had more political parties, it seems to me that a lot of the current problems in US politics would go away
That would certainly be better, though very far from perfect. But I doubt they’d allow such a thing to happen anyway.
The US isn’t the only country in the world
*Looks at maps of the US*
“I don’t understand”
Agree, but here’s what they don’t want you to know!
Not every thing posted here has to do with America. The world has other countries don’t you know?
“Murdoch never saw it coming” and the use of the word “boomers” clearly imply that this meme is in reference to America but sure
Mate?
Murdochs from Australia and boomers are an entire generation of people in the west. Nothing about this is uniquely American.
It’s ok, I make mistakes too.
Where do people live where they see this happening? Where I live, the young have moved significantly to the right compared to the older generation.
Not sure where you live, but millennials and Gen z generally have more liberal views than conservative ones in the US, as far as I’m aware. Here’s a couple links to Pew Research Center, first is a number of statistics regarding political stances between generations (doesn’t include gen z) and the second is specifically about how Gen Z compares to older generations in political stances.
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2018/03/01/the-generation-gap-in-american-politics/
That’s because the ones that moved left also moved to the coastal cities.
Where I live
Where is that?
Finland.
Well then you’re definitely having a different experience than urban Americans and Canadians. I will say the rural folk are keeping right wing, but the cities are full of left leaning young’uns.
That definitely doesn’t match what I’ve seen, in Canada (both Sask and Ontario), nor what polls I’ve seen (eg, on topics like LGBT acceptance).
Note that the alt right are often the loudest (at least on a per capita basis). I think this can skew perception on how common they are, since they are over represented in online comments and there’s some kinds of online comments that are completely dominated by the right (to the degree where “don’t read the comments” is a meme in leftist circles).
Location definitely matters, too. Cities are way more accepting than rural or suburban areas. If you’re in a rural or suburban area, you have my sympathy. I grew up in a rural area myself and it was awful. I think many people (myself included) are purposefully fleeing shittier areas. That means progesssives not only migrate from rural to cities, but also from shitty provinces/states to better ones.
But even within the same cities, I’ve perceived younger people to get better over time. I’m pretty hopeful for gen Z, which seems better than my generation (millenials) were at the same age. I just wish we didn’t have to wait so long for progressives to outnumber regressives.
Even as a perfectly self centered capitalist I would still pick more socialism. System has not bought my loyalty, so why should I care about it?
The very young do not always do as they are told
Seeing youth orgs like TPUSA and YAF on college and high school campuses means that we might have to start playing at their own game and not just take kids becoming socialist as default.
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It’s gonna be hilarious watching you guys serve under the boot when all your money comes from the government that controls you. Enjoy!
