• darq@kbin.social
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    2 years ago

    Remember, we know how to address many of the world’s problems, including poverty, homelessness, and climate change.

    But those with capital in society choose not to.

      • variaatio@sopuli.xyz
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        2 years ago

        Like the one recent CEO saying the quiet part aloud by saying government should promote higher unemployment, since in the high employment environment employees aren’t desperate and have more demands costing him money. That employees arent feeling enough pain and despair in economy.

        • DogMuffins@discuss.tchncs.de
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          2 years ago

          To be fair, this isn’t that far away from the economic theory underlying using interest rates to manage inflation - it’s just phrased in a different way.

      • ilinamorato@lemmy.world
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        2 years ago

        In most cases, yes; but in this case in particular, with UBI increasing the buying power of the poor, those with capital would actually profit off of implementing such a service. No, this one boils down to good old fashioned classism.

    • trailing9@lemmy.ml
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      2 years ago

      Remember that politics can be changed with votes. Tax them to finance change.

      It’s difficult, but blaming billionaires takes away our agency.

      • KillAllPoorPeople@lemmy.world
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        2 years ago

        If we could change politics by voting, we wouldn’t be allowed to vote.

        We’re not stretched thin to finance these changes. Taxes aren’t holding us back. This is what those with true power in society and their cronies say to not do anything. This is the whole point.

        No one is only blaming “billionaires.” This is you patronizing them, portraying yourself as a genius and the person you’re responding to as too naive and stupid to understand how life really works.

        And no, we don’t have agency. We have a deluded sense of agency where we think we can vote and change the system from within.

        • trailing9@lemmy.ml
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          2 years ago

          There are levels. Voters don’t have agency. But if voters would coordinate they would have agency.

          The difference is believing in agency.

          I am aware how stupid I sound. But how else can I phrase it that there needs to be a believe in change to create change? Right now I just hope that readers ignore the stupid part.

            • trailing9@lemmy.ml
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              2 years ago

              Thanks for the upvote.

              There hasn’t been internet for most of history, nor global warming, nor automation.

              The joke is that people don’t want a fair revolution because the situation will be worse at first if resources are shared globally. People don’t want agency because they would be responsible for all problems.

          • DerKriegs@lemmy.ml
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            2 years ago

            I love what you said about believing in agency: knowing what power is ultimately in our hands would change the world for the better.

            • trailing9@lemmy.ml
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              2 years ago

              Thank you. Judging by the downvotes and objections, people deeply don’t believe it. I had expected some technical issues that prevent UBI but reading those replies makes me sad.

              This is Lemmy. People on Reddit will feel even more disenfranchised. But it could be the other way round because Marxism states that capitalist democracy doesn’t work and that a revolution is needed.

        • trailing9@lemmy.ml
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          2 years ago

          It’s not just a matter of reversing power.

          Billionaires lead. Regular citizens would massively have to change their lives if they want to change that.

      • darq@kbin.social
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        2 years ago

        Remember that politics can be changed with votes. Tax them to finance change.

        I agree the wealthy need to pay a lot more in tax than they currently do.

        They also have disproportionate control over the electoral process in many countries, and most political parties are not even considering taxing them to the extent that they need to be taxed. Nor are most political parties challenging our capitalist society in any significant sense.

        Voting is important, but don’t expect voting alone to solve our problems.

        It’s difficult, but blaming billionaires takes away our agency.

        No it does not. Sod off with that. Correctly identifying a major contributor to an issue does not take away agency.

        • trailing9@lemmy.ml
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          2 years ago

          What but voting should solve the problems? You won’t stage a revolution.

            • trailing9@lemmy.ml
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              2 years ago

              How about direct action to make citizens vote in a coordinated way?

              But you must have other direct actions in mind. Which ones?

                • trailing9@lemmy.ml
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                  2 years ago

                  Why strikes and mass protests? Vote accordingly and let the law drive the change.

                  • darq@kbin.social
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                    2 years ago

                    Because voting alone doesn’t work, as evidenced by the fact that it hasn’t worked over decades of us trying, you stupid wanker.

    • HughJanus@lemmy.ml
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      2 years ago

      Because most of us have our own problems and don’t feel responsible for the lives of others.

      • Girru00@lemmy.world
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        2 years ago

        Now imagine if you lived in a society where someone gave a shit about your problems. And maybe they even have the skills and resources to fix them more efficiently than you would. Or not, does it matter, theyre willing to help.

          • Girru00@lemmy.world
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            2 years ago

            It actually is. We all have problems. Humanity formed society to solve problems. Society has been hijacked (for a loooong time in many different ways) to extract value from others. Some people want to combat that.

            Some “have their own problems to deal with”

      • darq@kbin.social
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        2 years ago

        Who is “us”? Unless you’re politically well connected or have nine figures in the bank, you aren’t wielding significant power to make systemic changes.

        • HughJanus@lemmy.ml
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          2 years ago

          “Us” the people who pay taxes and are hypothetically responsible for paying for UBI.

          • darq@kbin.social
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            2 years ago

            Unless you’re politically well connected or have nine figures in the bank, you aren’t wielding significant power to make systemic changes.

              • darq@kbin.social
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                2 years ago

                You know that UBI is cheaper than policing the problems that runaway wealth disparity causes, right? UBI also means that employers cannot easily exploit workers with the threat of destitution, meaning that wages, including yours, go up. It also makes society more pleasant as people with prospects turn to drugs or crime less frequently.

                The only people UBI doesn’t benefit, is the absurdly wealthy. Your myopic worldview has you voting against your own interests.

                • HughJanus@lemmy.ml
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                  2 years ago

                  No, I don’t know any of that.

                  Maybe you’d like to explain who and why people would choose to work when they entirely don’t have to?

                  • bane_killgrind@lemmy.ml
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                    2 years ago

                    Same reason people have hobbies… they like doing things.

                    What your concern really should be is, who would work for an asshole like you when they don’t have to. The answer is they won’t, get fucked.

                  • darq@kbin.social
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                    2 years ago

                    Maybe you’d like to explain who and why people would choose to work when they entirely don’t have to?

                    Two reasons:

                    1. UBI provides a baseline level of income to keep people out of poverty. But people tend to want more than just the basics, and deciding to work provides additional income for luxuries.
                    2. People, in general, are inherently motivated to create, and will do so without the threat of death on the streets. Meaning people will still voluntarily work, only they will do so on their terms.

                    But also, with the increasing levels of automation possible, human labour is needed less and less to fulfil our needs. We need to decouple being able to live from employment. Because the path we are currently on involves artificially increasing consumption and creating meaningless jobs to justify paying people enough money to live.

    • elouboub@kbin.social
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      2 years ago

      But those with capital in society choose not to.

      That’s a good 80% of the population

        • elouboub@kbin.social
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          2 years ago

          So because somebody has a lot, you have nothing? Because somebody has a house worth 5M and don’t have a house, means you have no dwelling? Because somebody earns 10x what you have, you have no income?

          “They have more capital than I do, therefore I have none”.

          “A person with more capital than I chose to vote and lobby, that means my vote is null and void and so are my efforts”.

          “There’s no point in doing anything ever if somebody else is better at it”.

          • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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            2 years ago

            It literally does, according to the person who coined the term and socialist political economic theory up to the present.

            Have you read any marx? Any marx whatsoever?

            • elouboub@kbin.social
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              2 years ago

              Capital was coined by Marx? Say what?

              First recorded in 1175–1225; Middle English; (adjective) from Anglo-French or directly from Latin capitālis “of the head” (capit-, stem of caput “head” + -ālis adjective suffix; see -al1); (noun) from Medieval Latin capitāle “wealth,” noun use of neuter of the adjective capitālis

              https://www.dictionary.com/browse/capital

              • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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                2 years ago

                Sorry. You’re right. Allow me to clarify. “Who used the term in political economics”

      • darq@kbin.social
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        2 years ago

        Except that’s just false. I actually cannot fathom where you pulled that estimate from.

        • elouboub@kbin.social
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          2 years ago

          You can argue that national poverty lines are made to be kept under a certain percentage, sure, then we can ignore that. Globally, yes, the majority doesn’t have capital (as in financial capital), but per country, there are stark differences. More things to consider

          Especially GNI PPP: if you live in Europe, North America, Australia, China, Japan, and a few other countries, there’s a good chance you belong to the global 20% of high income earners. The minimum wage in your country will probably be higher than what a low income family earns in a year

          For the current 2024 fiscal year, low-income economies are defined as those with a GNI per capita, calculated using the World Bank Atlas method, of $1,135 or less in 2022; lower middle-income economies are those with a GNI per capita between $1,136 and $4,465; upper middle-income economies are those with a GNI per capita between $4,466 and $13,845; high-income economies are those with a GNI per capita of $13,846 or more.

          https://datahelpdesk.worldbank.org/knowledgebase/articles/906519-world-bank-country-and-lending-groups

          Can you fathom?

          • darq@kbin.social
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            2 years ago

            We are talking about people who have the capital in society to make actual systemic changes to society. Such as restructuring our economy to value lives, wellbeing, and sustainability over profit.

            Quite obviously 80% of people do not have that capital.

            You are cherrypicking statistics, seemingly to deliberately miss the point.

            Global comparisons of income mean exactly nothing to the quality of life of people living within their country.

            Even people deemed in that global top 20% are living paycheck-to-paycheck, and are unable to leverage that to make changes.