I did some analysis of the modlog and found this:
Ok, bigger instances ban more often. Not surprising, because they have more communities and more users and more trouble. But hang on, dbzer0 isn’t a very big instance. What happens if we do a ratio of bans vs number of users?
Ok, so lemmy.ml, dbzer0 and pawb are issue an outsized amount of bans for the number of users they have… But surely the number of communities the instance hosts is going to mean they have to ban more? Bans are used to moderate communities, not just to shield their user-base from the outside. Let’s look at the number of bans per community hosted:
Seems like dbzer0 really loves to ban. Even more than the marxists and the furries! What is it about dbzer0 that makes them such prolific banners?
Raw-ish numbers and calculations are in this spreadsheet if anyone wants to make their own charts.
What happens if we do a ratio of bans vs number of users?
We get a graph that compares two unrelated values?
Unless this data is purely internal instance user bannings, ‘Per capita’ has no effective meaning. As the pawb.social case shows: it’s all one user with multiple communities who regularly bans waves of sockpuppet brigades. Even the people catching strays or otherwise goes to show it has nothing to do with ‘the furries’.
Likewise I wager the SJW bans are effectively one community banning essentially one user who periodically spams accounts.
What is it about dbzer0 that makes them such prolific banners?
That whole painfully public fued against db0 over their stance on zionism may have something to do with it. Like the fake neo-nazi shit being spread against db0 that was just going on this week. It’s a wild question to have in light of all that, quite frankly.
Ridiculous on its face to say “weird why
db0” in light of exactly what you said, fully fabricated images shared to attack the wider perception of the instance.Along with the rest of the “I’m doing statistics! With crayons” nonsense.
Fuck this post.
Me, scrolling through the comments:
Alternative view: Why is dbzer0 the only instance that holds people accountable for their actions? Why are all other instances letting things slide?
There is one point that the statistics don’t grasp: the question whether a ban is used to “hold someone accountable” or because the mod just did not like a certain opinion or person.
The original statements stand. This statistic is solely about the amount of banning, not about the quality.
Alternative view:
Why act dbzer0 same as lemmy.ml, are they also authoritarian?Autoritarian for not tolerating zionists and pro Russia?
when a community is that ban heavy, it means 1 or 2 things, the mods do not like contradiction to thier narratives, or theres a ton of bots. its more likely the former rather than latter. its true for reddit with the bots.
if it were for actual violations, which mods dont even follow most of the time, the bans would be low, because it deters anyone from making the same violation in theory.
Or they are safe spaces for certain groups
What makes you so sure the moderators are the problem, and not users? Maybe assholes gravitate toward certain instances, or people just don’t bother to check whether an instance’s rules match how tend to they post.
Reading the comments I am wondering because a user from dbzer0 mentions problems with anti ai trolls and pawb I imagine has anti furry trolls. I also personally know of users that have a thing in their craw about .ml (cm0002 in particular whos alts make up a majority of my user block list).
the anti-genai trolls never let up, unfortunately. they must have dedicated months of their lives spinning up new sock-puppet troll accounts to bully, harass, and threaten one of our mods on an almost daily basis. because bullying zir off the internet is a great win for the fight against evil AI, right? yep, such effective activism, telling someone to kill themselves repeatedly simply for the “sin” of liking foss genai.
deleted by creator
Yeah I looked into this a while ago and it’s a concerning pattern. Every single time someone makes a post on YPTB about one particular dbzer0 mod, it seems as if they then go on to make ten alt accounts to harass him with transphobia. Lots of different accounts with a prior history, just pivoting to transphobic harassment right after they express a problem with his moderation. I gotta tell you, whoever is attacking that mod is fucking up if their intent is to hurt him, because he gets tons of sympathy and good PR about the whole thing. Lots of people go from being neutral to being on his side, because everyone who criticizes him suddenly turns out to be a transphobe. It’s really strange.
I feel like saying “him” and “he” might be misgendering zir.
I guess you can’t control how other people perceive you. I try to be polite, but I have to retroactively edit these sort of comments to say the “correct” gender. I am neither pro or anti trans-i don’t care-but it’s hard to instinctively write she when you internally label someone as a he.
This is an issue strictly on the internet. It’s easier not to misgender someone in real life if the transition is convincing. I worked in the service industry, and I just avoided pronouns all together if the appearance was ambiguous. It was awkward, especially for the cis-gender people who can’t control the way that they look.
dbzer0 mentions problems with anti ai trolls
Is dbzer0 pro AI?
Dbzer0 itself is very pro-AI. Or at least it has a lot of pro-AI communities.
Yes, you can get banned by simply downvoting slop.
No, you get banned for going into a community and downvoting for everything in it instead of avoiding it and blocking it.
Lies from .world yet again.
Your truth is the truthest.
Numbers speak for themselves.
Yeah, the hitpiece by someone who got butthurt about being wrong that doesn’t account for the harassment an instance gets is NuMbErs.
Wanna tell me about how data says you’re justified in your beliefs about people too?
Yep, you don’t need no gosh darn numbers, you know the truth!
It’s not anti-AI, users who wish to host AI comms are allowed to and are empowered to protect them from harassment.
There has been a history of fake accounts and doxxing on moderators of the AI comms. So they take personal safety seriously.
no idea. actually reading it again I think I misread it. he said they have anti ai trolls. so I think he means programmed bot type trolls. so yeah no sure if they have something that would attract trolls.
Dbzer0 itself is very pro-AI. Or at least it has a lot of pro-AI communities.
yeah now im not sure. maybe I had read it correctly. anyway it was just a thought.
How can I see gen AI tags? Because there are admin posts on db0 which have genAI and no tags, unless I am missing something.
pawb I imagine has anti furry trolls
Maybe, but they’re also ban happy. The only ban I’ve gotten in almost 3 years of being on Lemmy is from pawb.social for, allegedly, being “a troll.” I’ve never commented anything disparaging about furries, and I’ve never commented or even voted on a pawb community.
yeah I don’t know. I was just pointing out that all three have basically hater types. In this situation individuals or groups can become a bit reactionary so your experiences may be valid as well. Personally I don’t think communities or instances need to be open and as a matter of fact there is a thing to get private communities a thing in the fediverse. I personally don’t care to much about bans I just would like things to be symetrical and I would love as much as possible to be at the user level. So I wish instances and communities would defederate/block/ban as little as possible and give users the greatest possible ability to do this and for everything to be symetric. You don’t want me I don’t want you. I block you I don’t want you to see my stuff no mo.
That and brigading. There are communities in several of the largest ban happy instances dedicated to find the worst shit people say then circlejerking over what an idiotic take it was. People get amped up, go there and can’t help but argue and they get banned.
There do be some ptb, though.
users arnt banning themselves, if there is a significant percentage of peoples ban you have to start suspecting the mods are doing this themselves, to push a narrative. besides most of these are political instances/communities and tankies, zionists and control of them they dont like contradictions. you sound like a tankie trying to defend thier bannings. its the same if you tried to comment in r/conservative on reddit, you get banned asap, is it the fault of the user? no its the mods, its been well known.
The only reason an asshole would gravitate to a particular instance would have to have something to do with that instance.
dbzer0 literally has a community aimed at calling out power tripping mods, and instance admins regularly comment there to call out power tripping mods.
I’ve never have been worried by being banned there by just normal posting.
As they have already told you. This does not take into account the amount of harassment that some instances and communities have to endure.
If you havent been banned on lemmy.ml you either dont interact with that instance or you might have to rethink you political ideas. Being banned on ml is quite the certificate for not complete brain dead.
believed the Uhygur genocide was a hoax.
Even Wikipedia had to change the name of the “Uyghur Genocide” article because there wasn’t enough evidence, lol.
Ha, I think that’s what got me banned from there as well. Good riddance.
Because it is. Hence why zero international human rights councils have ever found evidence of genocide.
That’s blatantly false. You have the same critical thinking ability as MAGA.
Link me one official organization that calls it a genocide and is not a part of a country that considers itself explicitly at war with China. I’ll wait.
Link me any reports proving the genocide is fake that aren’t linked to the Chinese government. Don’t worry, I’ll wait.
Link me any reports proving the genocide is fake
Prove you aren’t a child rapist. Don’t worry, I’ll wait
Sure. Here’s the UN.
In fact, here’s all claims made to the UN, the assessments and recommendations of investigative bodies, and all specific recommendations to China regarding alleged human rights abuses. By a Uyghur rights group. None of which calls anything China has done as genocide. Because it is a CIA-funded Uyghur rights group, it does call counter terrorism of the internationally recognized terrorist organization known as the East Turkestan Party ‘cultural oppression.’ But even that slant is hollow when they actually link to the OHCHR reports which show, at worst, some family members directly internationally recognized as linked to known terrorists and that are actually on the no-fly list in the US were arrested and put into rehabilitation after the terror attacks.
Edit: And to be clear, I just did the impossible by proving a negative. In all logic and debate it is on the claimant to prove their case. next time have proof.
LOL
I’m guessing you didn’t read that UN report which is condemning China for human rights violations.
Overall assessment and recommendations
143. Serious human rights violations have been committed in XUAR in the context of the Government’s application of counter-terrorism and counter-“extremism” strategies. Theimplementation of these strategies, and associated policies in XUAR has led to interlocking patterns of severe and undue restrictions on a wide range of human rights. These patterns of restrictions are characterized by a discriminatory component, as the underlying acts often directly or indirectly affect Uyghur and other predominantly Muslim communities.
I did, extensively when it came out. That’s not genocide.
If you actually cared to read the report what they allege they found is ‘systemic arrests of families of captured Uyghur terrorists,’ that ‘have nothing to do with their family member’s terrorism,’ and were held ‘without bond until trial.’ No genocide. No systemic abuse of all uyghurs. Less than 1% of an extremely small population involved.
Given CHINA WAS VIOLENTLY ATTACKED FOR HALF A DECADE BY TURKISH UYGHURS PAID BY THE CIA, you might understand why families of those terrorists were, you know, investigated arrested and rehabilitated in the off chance they too were a part of a terror organization.
That plus the multi-hundred billion dollar investment in Xinjiang resulting in one of the largest, fastest decreases in poverty rates in world history is why China hasn’t had another terror attack despite being bordered with Turkey, where the terror organization still exists.
Asked to provide links to organizations calling it a genocide, proceeds to provide links to organizations that don’t.
Least dishonest .worlder
Amnesty.org is a US Government organization created by Cold War era Intelligence agents. It is not an internationally recognized neutral organization and has no history of neutrality. They magically find issues with anyone that the US deems as an enemy, but has never criticized the US.
HRRC I’ve never heard of, but for a generic NGO that appeared out of no where that posts opinion articles that contradict their own sources, they aren’t off to a good start. Also not an official organization of anywhere.
USHMM Hosts no sources, has no researchers on staff, has no direct connections to china, and appears to be israeli owned and operated so nothing they’ve ever said or posted is likely to be true.
“I discovered a community of people disagree with me about something I think I understand quite well. It’s the same community that originated Lemmy, it’s a community of people who actually come from and live in different parts of the world, and it’s the same community many folks just sign up to incidentally when they first check out federated stuff, meaning nothing by it. Better just block the entire thing, lol, I sure know what I’m doin!”
You really sound like a jackass lmao
It’s not willful ignorance to block users, comms, or instances. I’ve been pushed to block news/politics comms across multiple lemmy instances just to save myself the time spent reading the smooth-brained mouth-breathers argue we should abandon money and build a utopia out of hopes and dreams.
I blocked several political coms because I know I’m very flammable and opinionated, and would rather not get banned.
It can be willful ignorance to do so, it isn’t always. Blocks are very useful.
Fair enough, but in that case your argument seems in favor of staying with established systems even when central figures in those systems are corrupt. It’s hard not to sympathize with the impulse to separate from systems with prominent corruption, but perhaps there is an argument to be made about the need to tolerate some level of corruption for sake of social structure.
My point is really the commenter’s seeming inability to find nuance. Or maybe more charitably, disinterest in finding nuance.
There’s this childish kneejerk response, tuned to sound aligned with “the right side of history”, that’s really just people being allergic to information and ideas too different from their own. They go “ooo scary/bad! I heard about those tankies!” and just panic ban.
I’ve seen the same flavor of it where people who happen to have signed up to .ml, knowing nothing about the landscape and just to figure all this federated stuff out, get berated for ideas they don’t share and never stated. Based on where their account is.
It’s all just very shallow and much more like team sports than anything else. Virtue signalling. Which I guess shouldn’t be too surprising.
That’s actually quite wild coming from someone on dbzero0, which is doing the same on an instance level as instance policy
I’m sorry to hear you support genocide.
Real careful thinker huh.
Wow some of y’all are pissy AF over literal data being shown to you. If you think it’s wrong then you have free will, put your money where your mouth is and do it better or stop yapping.
Analysis of potential causes aside, thank you for sharing such interesting data!
its so funny how people complained about blahaj, the trans instance yet they dont ban very high at all, i suspect its alot of transphobic comments being directed towards the instance that are getting people banned.
blahaj is up there likely due to signicant transphobia too.
if you look at the modlog of every “blahaj is an authoritarian instance” user you will find they either keep misgendering people, talked over trans people and refused to be corrected or did things like denouncing neopronouns everytime
“Refused to be corrected”, is hilarious.
I am banned from a bunch of blahaj because I said that they were as bad as ml once. Never made any transphobic comments (nor am I, for the record).
I was not surprised to see them so high up.
You deserve it. Blahaj is not as terrible as ML
When are they going to prove that? This thread isn’t helping lol
The burden of proof is on you. To my knowledge Blahaj is not pro russia
deleted by creator
I don’t really see a problem with an instance banning large numbers of users.
The ability to make exclusive spaces is part of the fediverse’s design. Suppose a queer space kept getting flooded with homophobic users, or a Muslim space got a bunch of people shitting on their religion, or something like that. Naturally, such spaces would have a higher number of bans. That doesn’t necessarily show an “echo chamber” especially since users of such communities may be federated with other communities. People complain about censorship on .ml creating an “echo chamber” but half the time I’m arguing or discussing things on other turfs like .world.
The idea that those sorts of enclaves or exclusive spaces shouldn’t exist, as is implied with the framing here, is to impose what us evil, dastardly “authoritarians” sometimes call “the tyranny of structurelessness.” No one would have a space to discuss things outside of the most prominent, hegemonic view, which would more easily sideline and overwhelm other perspectives.
As an example, I once frequented an utter cesspool on Reddit called r/CapitalismVSocialism, which was created and promoted by An-caps and where that perspective was prominent (though not exclusive). I found it was virtually impossible to have a discussion with anyone about anything, because even if you weren’t talking to an An-cap, they were always there waiting to latch on to some turn of phrase and use it against you, and everyone was too preoccupied with countering their nonsense to reach any kind of high-level discussion. I eventually got fed up with that and found that my beliefs were more challenged by going to explicitly leftist spaces because we had shared assumptions and were speaking the same language, and didn’t feel the need to be as defensive. I was never going to be convinced of anything by the An-caps and all talking to them accomplished was pissing me off.
The fediverse’s design is actually quite brilliant, because you can have a space to discuss things substantively among like-minded people while at the same time interacting with other groups.
This concept of structured communities creating diversity appeals to me. As structural biologists, we often say Structure is Function, and it’s obvious this concept applies to societal rules and systems as much as physical systems.
Well it makes complete sense. ML, dbzero and the furries are instances that committed to upholding their code of conducts which moderates and bans people for antisocial behaviors like transphobia and racism for example, while instances like world and sjw are known to rarely if ever ban or moderate people for things like that to the point instances like beehaw had to defederate from them so they wouldnt get swarn by their unmoderated users
On world big communities you can get your comment removed for the word stupid but are allowing someone to say most palestinians was not forced to leave during the nekba or claim that israel never target civilians despite all the proofs saying otherwise
Their umbrella for antisocial behaviors is pretty extreme though. For instance the defederation you’re talking about, I believe it was because the sjw admin wouldn’t ban a user who said “trans women should be allowed in all sports, but the Olympics is a different case because small advantages matter much more there.” You can think that’s right or wrong, but I don’t see any universe where this is transphobic.
I’m not even a real instance anymore, how did I make the list 😆
But also, you should see the local numbers haha
lemmy=# select count(distinct other_person_id) from mod_ban where mod_person_id in (1, 2,288); count ------- 9792 (1 row)I wonder what happens when I hit 10,000?
You are there because when you ban someone on an instance level, you also ban them on a community level, which inflates your numbers.
DB0 does the same thing.
I used to do that but once the backend added that feature I removed that step from the automod script. Basically it was to prevent the communities here from being unmoddable on remote instances.
“Hey everyone, look at my juvenile attempts at statistics! Look how obviously bad some people seem when I do a shit job at it while ALSO failing to apply any context of the domain being studied to my thoughts, let alone to my ‘calculations’ and conclusions!”
This is a terrible metric from the fucking jump. And you did a shit job of it from there. Fuck you, truly.
[Edit: love how ya closed with “so who’s weirder guyz, the marxists, the furries, or the db0s?!” Just painfully obvious how you started the whole shebang, you hate all of the groups lol, because you’re a dumb asshole and not very happy about being one. Just remember, the option is always yours to simply shut the fuck up and read, then think, instead.]
In germany we say ‘heul leise’ and i think this is beautiful.
You also have the term Staatsräson which is disgusting. You hsve a party tied to nazis that is not banned and you have one of the most facistic police punching people for opposing settler colonialism
You didn’t even bother reading the raw data and checking the data yourself. You are just mad that the data exposes people for who they are
You should get banned for this reply.
I have no idea about pawb.social, but it’s almost certainly heavily bloated by bans for downvoting on AI communities on dbzer0 (and maybe some other communities).
I also imagine places like lemmy.world are distorted due to them receiving the lions share of new communities, many of which end up abandoned - whereas smaller, more ‘community’ instances are stricter and will delete troll/spam/abandoned communities.
Hi Rimu,
I see you’ve banned one of the communities I moderate !europe@lemmy.dbzer0.com, deleting it entirely from your instance and denying access to members who had subscribed from there.
Two questions if you don’t mind. Why are you so ban happy? Was there something wrong with the community or was this based on your personal feelings of a particular user?
So, yes you banned a community moderated by multiple users because you personally felt slighted at being banned by one person.
Thanks for the explanation.
I’m looking at the modlog right now and there’s about 30 bans coming from one mod on that community, that all say “s”. That’s the reason for those 30 bans, “s”. The letter S. That one person handed out 30 bans for the letter S.
https://lemmy.world/modlog?page=1&actionType=ModBanFromCommunity&modId=14007283
europe@lemmy.dbzer0.com has returned to piefed.social after we confirmed that the moderator in questions mod-logs would not continue to federate out.
After removing all subscriptions, deleting all votes, you’ve handed back an empty husk because Rimu’s fragile ego was bruised. Cheers! Great leadership on display at PieFed.social lately.
You were literally using the community as an attack vector against users
I was not. Another mod banned Rimu. Rimu could have just as easily banned that single user instead of deleting entire communities.
Its like some admins have zero concept of consensus or community-based decision making. They just wanna play server daddy, and daddy always knows best. 😂
I spent 8 years in organisations that operated with consensus-based decision making. IRL, not larping online.
You don’t know me. Even a little bit.
And yet you don’t see an issue with the way this was handled?
So, yes you banned a community moderated by multiple users because you personally felt slighted at being banned by one person.
I don’t need to know you, I just observe what actions you take. You went off half cocked in this post like it was some sort of gotcha.
Also not sure why you suddenly have it in for our instance recently. It seems like you’ve thrown in your hat with Kaplan who is seemingly determined to get rid of the last remaining leftist instances. That’s extremely disappointing.
And yet you don’t see an issue with the way this was handled?
They never will.
Also not sure why you suddenly have it in for our instance recently.
Always has, we don’t support liberal capitalism. That’s worse than the fascists they hang out with, while claiming they fight fascism.
That’s why you made the choice to code in your biases into PieFed without reaching a consensus with anyone first.
You must love how the top communities on .social are all meme communities.
You don’t know me. Even a little bit.
Your actions are louder than your words. Your continued bad faith and constant siding with other bad faith actors are bigger than your empty platitudes and statements.
Your personality is reflected in your actions. You’re a digital dictator.
without further explanation, looking at the mod’s modlog posted above makes me inclined to go ask PTB…
Holy mother of God that modlog. It’s almost up to 80 pages in 12 months 🤯
That being said, people who downvote AI content can be quite overwhelming on this platform. Our community !imageai@sh.itjust.works was very vibrant in the early days but seems to have been slowly crushed by the neverending stream of downvotes. It’s pretty discouraging when you go through the effort of creating and posting something and it gets randomly downvoted by anonymous accounts that seem to have been created just for the purpose of downvoting. But that’s just kinda how it is I guess, I’m not sure if anything can be done about it.
All things GenAI deserve to be downvoted. That’s why you might find it downvoted.
I’m ambivalent about it. I’m no fan of AI, but on the other hand people were having fun in that community and it seemed pretty harmless to me. I think when it comes to AI, it’s probably more reasonable to go after the companies who are spending billions developing it, rather than the common people who are just using it because it’s there and it’s free.
Nothing about genAI is harmless. Copyright theft, environmental disasters, hardware inflation, AI psychosis, general dumbing down of society, and causing the next Great Depression are harmful, for starters. Using it because “it’s there and it’s free” does not abdicate them from responsibility for promoting an incredibly harmful technology.
I don’t believe in free will so I can’t really hold average people responsible in such a basic way.
Ultimately, trying to solve the problem by going after the end result just isn’t going to work. Even if you want to blame the end users personally, you’re not going to solve anything without going after the source of the problem, which is the development of the technology in the first place, along with the availability and lack of regulation.
You could make similar arguments about using computers or social media in general tbh. The crux of the problem isn’t that people are using the tools that are made available to them, it’s that tools are being made available without properly considering the long term negative consequences, and only with a view towards short term profits.
I don’t believe in free will
LOL what!? Please elaborate because this sounds like a fundamental, much deeper problem than what we’re discussing.
trying to solve the problem by going after the end result just isn’t going to work
I don’t know what that’s supposed to mean. I’m not “going after the end result”, I’m just holding the responsible parties responsible.
you’re not going to solve anything without going after the source of the problem, which is the development of the technology in the first place
Development would end tomorrow if people stopped using it.
You could make similar arguments about using computers
Uhhh no, I don’t think so. You could make similar arguments regarding computers in the context of consumerism and lack of ability or willingness to repair or demand repairability, yes.
or social media
Not in general. All the major platforms, I can and do make a very similar argument.
The crux of the problem isn’t that people are using the tools that are made available to them, it’s that tools are being made available without properly considering the long term negative consequences, and only with a view towards short term profits.
Incorrect, it is both.
