I replied to someone saying that the USSR defeated the Nazis saying that it was a group effort. Got into an argument and called a Nazi repeatedly because “I was mad that the USSR defeated the Nazis and hated them for it” which is ridiculous. This isn’t the first time that’s happened on Lemmy. What’s up with that?
the total USSR causalities were around 27 million, western allies casualties were a combined 1.7 million in all theaters.
calling it a ‘group effort’ does imply an equal contribution, which is what gets peoples hackles up.
It also goes to show how the USSR needed the help and without it being a group effort the citizens of the USSR would have suffered even more.
i’m not going to deny that the USSR would have suffered more without lend-lease, but that’s true of any alliance member receiving material support.
the issue i see is that when people talk about this, 27 million to 1.7 million loss ratio gets passed through the narrative and emerges as an equal partnership. Yes the USSR got like 10 billion in material from the US, but the eastern front was 70-80% of the entire german war effort. The lend lease didn’t even arrive in significant amounts until after the battle for stalingrad.
the OOP comment that OP replied to was this, on the subject of how the US hasn’t won a war:
they [the US] didn’t win wwii, the soviets did.
d-day could not have happened without the soviets turning the tide on their own. you can call it a group effort but that makes it sound like it was equal participation.
The Soviet tendency to throw bodies at a problem until it went away is largely to blame for their high casualties though. And without allied support they’d have lost even more.
It’s throwing bodies at a problem when Russia defeats the Nazis, but it’s waves of brave men sacrificing themselves when it’s America defeating Japan.
Strange how that works isn’t it?
The Soviet tendency to throw bodies at a problem
that is just dehumanizing. the front was extremely brutal and most of the fighting and dying happened there as a result.
stalingrad was where things turned in 1942-1943, lend lease was arriving but was not exactly significant until after 1943. soviet commanders did acknowledge the value of the lend lease, but the way it’s been spun since then is like someone showing up to a group project late, doing a fraction of the work and trying to claim the spotlight afterwards.
that is just dehumanizing
The USSR was good at that
but the way it’s been spun since then is like someone showing up to a group project late, doing a fraction of the work and trying to claim the spotlight afterwards.
Sure, if you ignore North Africa, Western Europe, and the Pacific Theatre.
This whole “the US showed up late and claimed victory” narrative is just as stupid as acting like the USSR didn’t do anything.
Sure, if you ignore North Africa, Western Europe, and the Pacific Theatre.
27 million to 1.7 million losses in all theaters. the eastern front was 70-80% of the entire german war effort. The lend lease didn’t even arrive in significant amounts until after the battle for stalingrad.
the original comment you replied to that started this off was this:
they [the US] didn’t win wwii, the soviets did.
you have managed to really move the goalposts in your pity thread
The USSR having no concern for their own fighting men is not a plus towards this argument. Germany lost 3-4 million on that front. 3-4 million in comparison to 27 million shows that the Soviet strategy of throwing wave after wave of bodies was a bad strategy.
It was a good strategy. Because they, ya know, won the fucking war. Jesus christ, lmao.
the 27 million includes approximately 16-19 million civilians who were systematically exterminated or died under occupation.
blaming soviet military strategies for those deaths is historically illiterate. the nazi invasion was explicitly genocidal in intent, those civilians weren’t casualties of soviet tactics.
Okay? That still doesn’t mean that the Soviets won the war singlehandedly, which is the argument that was being made. Around 11 million Soviet soldiers and sailors were lost. The only excuse for that is strategy. Losing 11 million to 4 million is , frankly, awful and the only reason they didn’t lose completely was that they had the numbers.
Hey look, Hexbear is directly attacking you and calling you a Nazi for… checks notes saying Soviets helped with the war? https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/76613775
No, for repeating the “human wave” myth which is ahistorical nonsense.
guy is a specialist in selective comprehension. i can’t even be mad, he’s too pathetic
.ml is tankie horseshit
Ya the guys in Lemmy.ml tend to be pretty weird like that. They aren’t a monolith but in general they tend to think that Russia, China, and North Korea have never done anything bad and that all the evil in the world comes from capitalism in europe and America and that the whole world will be fixed when The Revolution comes. It is all sort of like evangelical Christianity with the numbers filed off, the president of the United States is like an appointed satan (appointed, not elected, they don’t believe elections work/are real in the west) who rules over hell which is the west (sometimes stylized as “Amerikkka”, often accompanied by an American flag emoji with a fire emoji on top of it or a jpeg of a Chinese emperor shooting a fireball), Karl Marx is sort of like Jesus and mao, lenin, Stalin, etc. are the disciples, and The Revolution is the rapture. It is a pretty interesting belief system and I think the .ml guys all mean well, but they can be really difficult to talk to sometimes, as you’ve seen.
thats because its true, if you left your liberal echo chamber and read real news and read theory properly it would all make sense 😒
Yeah, it’s totally true, everyone knows the only member of the allied forces was actually the USSR. No other country fought against the Nazis, they did completely single handedly, and totally wouldn’t have just sat there and let it happen, if Hitler hadn’t violated their non aggression pact first.
.ml comm? It’s pretty funny how they can’t even run an online community without censorship.
??? Name a single successful online community that doesn’t regularly ban or remove posts. 4chan is the closest thing to that, but I wouldn’t call it a successful online community (and they still do ban and remove posts, just rarely).
When will you be spinning up your lemmy instance? I want you to show us how its done.
Was this ml? I was banned for saying NATO was a defensive alliance.
thats because its not its an imperialist tool with nothing defensive about it, lib worlders man 😒
Exhibit A.
Points to guy that is completely correct “Haha, get a load of this guy!”
Exhibit B.
points at guy that is completely correct “Get a load of this guy!”
- one month old account
- every comment is repeating tankie talking points
Bro you’re not beating the allegations
Literally migrated instances because of midwest.social having performance/federation issues. But your account is younger than Trump first taking power in the US and putting loyalists in the US government, so…
If you are in a ‘defensive alliance’ with a bunch of countries that regularly engage in aggressive overseas invasions, ones in which you frequently if not always help and provide support. Then I’m sorry to inform you that you are in an ‘offensive alliance’.
Most NATO countries have in some way helped with Trump’s mindless war on Iran (I mean heck, Spain is basically famous for being the only one who won’t). You have to admit there’s nothing defensive about that.
My time on Lemmy drastically improved when I blocked the “Tankie Triad”, which is Lemmygrad, Hexbear, and Lemmy(dot)ml. I also unsubscribed from anything .ml and manually searched for the next most-popular non-tankie community for that topic.
I don’t care if you have different beliefs than me, but tankies are unreasonable, trolling, and biased, in both content and moderation. They’re not around to discuss anything in good faith…
gots to block those evil communists! can’t have anything not approved by the empire getting into my liberal echo chamber!! 🥀
Nah, communists are cool. Tankies can get fucked.
“Tankies” are the actual left liberal 🫠
No, tankies are idiots who think that a communist nation can do no wrong. Just like Ancaps think that capitalist nations can do no wrong.
“tankie” is a meaningless anticommie slur it has no real definition
No, it’s being used properly here. Y’all are the ones who need to make up new definitions and encyclopedias to defend yourselves.
Don’t take it personal. There are some deep Tankie holes on Lemmy, primarily .lm, they’d even take offense if you were suggesting, that maybe not absolutely everything is splendid in North Korea and I am not kidding or exaggerating here.
You think they’re bad at ml? Wait till you get a load of hexbear.
I like hexbear’s cute pictures. They, unfortunately, do not like me. That’s okay, it is their instance to run after all. They should run it how they want.
Its not like they purposely built a secret ban list in server hosting software and tried to hide it from the people who downloaded it.
I’m glad we can all find common ground on the “admiral Patrick is a douchebag” front.
See yall at the next scheduled feudpost!
“Instance that spreads authoritarianism gets called out”
WhY ARe YoU FeUdPoSTInG
I guess all that lend lease equipment we used to prop up the weak soviet industry had nothing to do with it. They thanked us by making a clone of the B-29.
History is fun!
Oh wow, that’s a lot of charts without a single source on them lolol
Nice!
You missed raw resources though. Or logistics. Like tires - it was damn impressive when USA packed and shipped and rebuilt (then knows as) Moscow Tire Factory. Or half a million trucks to transport all that food, or iron (Ural), or coal (Azerbeijan or Kazakhstan, don’t remember). Or literal shitton of trains, or rails. Or that 1/3 of explosives that Red Army used was from Land Lease. Or that the land lease food was canned meat and majority of meat soldiers on the front ate. Or that funny thing about octane fuel, where (some models of) Yaks (e.g Yak 9U) would just not run on the domestic low octane fuel, and had to use Land Lease one (other models just got better performance, of about 20%). Oh, and half of the aluminum USSR needed for the tank engines and airplanes.
But you’re spot on with tanks!
Lmao, your country helped, li’l buddy!
Not an USian here.
Your nick does not match your behaviour.
Sorry boss.
If you can believe it. You can’t believe anything a tankie says.
I asked him to source those charts and he won’t do it. I wonder why.
Because I’m not your failure of a history teacher. If you have a problem with the numbers, talk to me about them and we can figure it out.
“Without the machines we received through Lend-Lease, we would have lost the war.” Josef Stalin
“If the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war. One-on-one against Hitler’s Germany, we would not have withstood its onslaught and would have lost the war. No one talks about this officially, and Stalin never, I think, left any written traces of his opinion, but I can say that he expressed this view several times in conversations with me.” Nikita Kruschev
“People say that the allies didn’t help us. But it cannot be denied that the Americans sent us materiel without which we could not have formed our reserves or continued the war. The Americans provided vital explosives and gunpowder. And how much steel! Could we really have set up the production of our tanks without American steel? And now they are saying that we had plenty of everything on our own.” Georgy Zhukov
You know Stalin said that during a dinner with the western leaders, right? You think a compliment during dinner disputes my data?
You are aware that the CIA admitted that the USSR would have beaten the Germans without the help of the Americans, right?
And Kruschev and Zhukov? Weird that you’d believe the CIA over Soviet leaders.
Yeah. Welcome to lemmy.ml
Many of us just block all the communities of lemmy.ml. this way you are out of reach of the tankie mods.
Unfortunately, lemmy.ml is one of the big instances, so you’re also cutting a big chunk of Lemmy content. But if enough people join the ml boycott (there are already a lot of people that block ml), eventually ml will shrink and other more sensible instances will prevail.
Actually, according to lemmyverse.net (great place for comm discovery btw!) and my own experience cross posting .ml content, .ml is almost entirely held up by a core set of the most diehard tankie users. Most .ml comms are overshadowed by comms on other instances with much higher Monthly Active Users numbers.
The comm search field goes by pure subscriber count which doesn’t really decrease for any reason other than a user actually unsubscribing from a comm so all of those insane numbers on some .ml comms are just overinflated and don’t reflect actual traffic. It’s full of dead and/or banned accounts, alts and some still active users
Why come to a Marxist website and then block the Marxist creators lmfao. Just go back to reddit.
I’m not in a Marxist website. Notice how my name doesn’t end in “Lemmy.ml”, “Lemmygrad.org” or “hexbear.net”. :)
Also Marxist and tankie is not the same thing. I could be a Marxist and still call out the boot licking tankieness going on in .ml
Which worldnews? IIRC there are multiple communities called that way.
Also you should stop using Facebook and Tiktok, it’s not good for your brain and for democracy.
Which worldnews? IIRC there are multiple communities called that way.
Also you should stop using Facebook and Tiktok, it’s not good for your brain and for democracy.
What does Facebook and tiktok have to do with anything?
lemmy.ml is a tankie instance. Anyone and anything from there can be disregarded entirely.
liberal worlder: “Tankies = anything remotely leftist”
The two lead devs literally have Fidel Castro and Che Guevara, two of the most horrific scum in history, as their idols and spend their time dick riding Mao. They’re openly Tankies.
The two lead devs literally have Fidel Castro and Che Guevara, two of the most horrific scum according to Amrikkkan written history
Fidel Castro tortured and executed thousands of political dissidents.
Guevara implemented concentration camps for gays and literally took the motto of Auschwitz “work sets you free” turning it into “work will turn you into men”. Except he just had them tortured and executed. Along with hundreds of other political dissidents, himself personally taking part in the torture and murder of 216 people, making him one of the most prolific serial killers in history.
Now, fuck off tankie. The only good commie is a dead commie.
haha yea! Amerikkka had no reason to lie about anything to do with cuba not lik they led the red scare and mercilessly shutdown any country that wanted communism, im sure they would tots not propagandize Castro.
go ahead and give me a non cia source then, zionazi lib
That’s just the admins of lemmy.ml for ya, here’s a megathread on them
You’ll get banned for showing support for Ukraine or going against Russian narratives or if you remind them of Putlers promise to not invade or just shit talking Putler in general
Or calling out propaganda sites - https://lemmy.world/post/32776038 | https://lemmy.world/post/33416433 | https://lemmy.world/post/34051329 | https://lemmy.world/post/35919522
Or so much more, I actually haven’t updated the megathread in a few months, but there’s more recent stuff on !meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works
ETA - Join the lemmy.ml boycott today and help foster a better Lemmy-verse! No more posts, comments (except to counter their propaganda ofc!) or upvotes on any comms on the Lemmy.ml instance! To make this easy you can do an instance block at Settings > Block Tab > Scroll to bottom > Input “lemmy.ml” and apply And consider donating to individual instances instead.
Why anyone would trust anything you say I’ve no idea. Your posts are all very much made up narratives.
Yeah, why trust them? Trust the public modlogs that they linked instead!
Or, ya know, keep ignoring what’s right in front of you, put your fingers in your ears and screech like a child. You seem good at that.
Sshhhh!
No talk in the back of the class.
Each and every post includes:
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As much screenshots as possible to capture the full context (Tankies do love to complain that critics never have the full context after all)
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Links to the modlog and source post wherever possible
Titles are just a summary or interpretation, as is every article you’ve ever read. The full evidence is available for you to post your own interpretation if you feel mine is wrong.
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